Ganon's Book of Sinister Secrets (Discoveries, Trix & ATs)

[adom4]

I could probably find a use with vault, I just never use customs. What exactly does it do, does it actually go higher?

At least Dark dive has the uppercut.
You know a move is bad when it is outclassed by dark dive of all moves.

 

[Opana]

I love Dark Dive >_:>

I like edge guarding from a ledge hanging position so maybe I could find some use there, otherwise I want to mess with the grab on it and see if there's anything noticeably different.

 

[adom4]

I love Dark Dive >_:>

I like edge guarding from a ledge hanging position so maybe I could find some use there, otherwise I want to mess with the grab on it and see if there's anything noticeably different.

I would like it if it wasn't so punishable on stage tech & it had the Melee knockback on the grab, the only good thing about the move is the uppercut.

 

[Opana]

That's how I use it, if I land a grab above stage though I wizkick down to chase provided the recoil of the grab doesn't push me over the stage. I actually believe Dark Dive sends them at a semi spike trajectory from the grab and feel grabbing them offstage while they're away from the stage is much, much better than trying for likely the easiest to tech stage spike. It can catch Ness and Lucas' recoveries also, so this is an ideal scenario to maybe do it from a ledge drop perfectly straight and facing them for a fairly easy gimp. Uair semi sp9ike is what I usually do but DD has potential imo. DV might even be better for this very niche use on them but I don't know how the grab differs.

DD's uppercut is mainly why I enjoy it, that and the speed at which it comes out. I can't use DF the same because it's too slow, except maybe for a jump read but even then idk. I can't utilize DD much in the mirror because of wizkick so if I play some of your other characters I'll probably be making use of it. I've been using it more and more and I think it's a bit underrated although for good reason, at a glance it seems pretty garbage.

 

[Opana]

I messed with DV a bit and here's some stuff:

Can recover almost from the very bottom, which while predictable allows us to recover extremely low either avoid edge guarding entirely or have enough time to tech stage spike fairly easily.

Harder to tech a stage spike since they fly out from the grab a lot faster.

It goes a slight bit forward that doesn't seem to be controllable.

Can use a Reverse Neutral B from a ledge hop and still recover.

Can use Wizards Assault offstage and not die.

I could see see this having use in MUs where edge guarding is a big issue for us, maybe vs. Sheik or Pikachu. I wouldn't recommend it vs. someone like Villager or Mega Man who has the Bowling Ball/Hard Knuckle respectively which with a very predictable vertical recovery would not be good at all.

Also, I mentioned this in the DK MU but DK and D3 can be hit with a full hop Dair as they bounce off the ground from a tumble animation, meaning if you think they'll miss a tech here's another option and FH Dair and be fast falled for good results. This works doing it over BF's low platforms which puts you both up on there for more potential follow ups. Also with DK specifically mout of his ground bounce you can hit him with full hop Dair, Bair, Nair, and Fair which is pretty crazy. Yo8u could do something like SHFF Uair->Dash Attack(Strong Hit)->Full Hop Fair Canceled into->Wizkick Ledge Canceled into->Ganoncide.

Oh and both can be hit by SH Uair as well after a bit more testing, Although other options seem more preferable.

 

[adom4]

I messed with DV a bit and here's some stuff:

Can recover almost from the very bottom, which while predictable allows us to recover extremely low either avoid edge guarding entirely or have enough time to tech stage spike fairly easily.

Harder to tech a stage spike since they fly out from the grab a lot faster.

It goes a slight bit forward that doesn't seem to be controllable.

Can use a Reverse Neutral B from a ledge hop and still recover.

Can use Wizards Assault offstage and not die.

I could see see this having use in MUs where edge guarding is a big issue for us, maybe vs. Sheik or Pikachu. I wouldn't recommend it vs. someone like Villager or Mega Man who has the Bowling Ball/Hard Knuckle respectively which with a very predictable vertical recovery would not be good at all.

Also, I mentioned this in the DK MU but DK and D3 can be hit with a full hop Dair as they bounce off the ground from a tumble animation, meaning if you think they'll miss a tech here's another option and FH Dair and be fast falled for good results. This works doing it over BF's low platforms which puts you both up on there for more potential follow ups. Also with DK specifically mout of his ground bounce you can hit him with full hop Dair, Bair, Nair, and Fair which is pretty crazy. Yo8u could do something like SHFF Uair->Dash Attack(Strong Hit)->Full Hop Fair Canceled into->Wizkick Ledge Canceled into->Ganoncide.

Oh and both can be hit by SH Uair as well after a bit more testing, Although other options seem more preferable.

DF is already good enough to deal with edgeguards because of the super armor, also it has the added bonus of murdering almost any edgeguarding attempt by tanking the hit.

 

[Opana]

Yeah I know, it is outclassed by both DF and DD imo. I think it's only real use is expanding the range of your edge guards but even then does dorf even need that lol, I mean you just gotta time Uair well and that alone should take care of a lot. When I actually play customs I'm gonna try DV in battle and see if I find anything else, I want to like it but..it's not looking good lol.

 

[King9999]

Not sure if this is specific to Ganon, but I've been in the lab and just discovered the following:

Ganon's f-air has end lag, but you can cancel it into any of his B moves if you piano the inputs. Basically, if you press jump and then f-air immediately after, you can cancel the end lag with a B move upon landing. Sadly, it doesn't look like you cancel into anything else. Note that this only works if you hit the apex of your first jump.

 

[Opana]

Not sure if this is specific to Ganon, but I've been in the lab and just discovered the following:

Ganon's f-air has end lag, but you can cancel it into any of his B moves if you piano the inputs. Basically, if you press jump and then f-air immediately after, you can cancel the end lag with a B move upon landing. Sadly, it doesn't look like you cancel into anything else. Note that this only works if you hit the apex of your first jump.

This is known but thanks for the contribution. Also, it can be canceled into an item throw or zdrop iirc but you'll have to catch the item during his Fair. Zdropping drops it from the outstretched fist too so you can catch it and space it well to drop whatever it is right over the edge. You could probably soft toss the item upwards and rising fair catch it to do this, would definitely be a good mindgame imo.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Something I'd like to mention about smaller characters, as we already know of the quicker reaction time Ganon is allowed after a dthrow, it'd be wise to follow up with a full hop nair and fast fall after the first hit for some nice juggle opportunities.

 

[Opana]

Something I'd like to mention about smaller characters, as we already know of the quicker reaction time Ganon is allowed after a dthrow, it'd be wise to follow up with a full hop nair and fast fall after the first hit for some nice juggle opportunities.

Not really sure how to say this but we can hit Pikachu with nair's crotch hitbox out of a full hop fast fall. I think this is a good option if you misread a jump and they're not shielding. Didn't test from Pika's crouch though.

 

[Blobface]

Found a little trick out of Flame Choke. I'll call it ledgechoking for now.

THE TRICK
If you Flame Choke someone right next to the edge and they miss the tech, you can shove them off by running. They'll get 3-6 frames to buffer something something*, and then they'll grab the ledge**. You're no in the perfect position to land a ledge trump for free*** and land a guaranteed B-air. The biggest draw of this is that it works on all characters regardless of frame advantage after choke, even Ganon himself when spaced correctly.

IF THEY BUFFER
If they buffer an airdodge or an aerial (make sure you shield), they'll put themselves in a very bad position below the stage. If they DJ you can land a Dash Attack or Dash Grab. It's very unlikely they'll buffer anything intentionally however. You only need to worry if they were mashing getup attack.

SETUP
If this works or not is primarily dependent on where Ganon is positioned rather than the opponent. If you position yourself about one "Ganondorf length" away from the ledge and hit with the first active frame of Flame Choke, it'll work on every character. This means you can consistently land this if they do a standard getup from the ledge.

*It's a small unreactable window, so they will need to buffer anything they want to do.
**even if they hold away from the ledge perfectly, only extreme floaties and characters with very high airspeed can get away. And again, it's only a problem if they're holding away from the stage constantly.
***They can buffer a roll naturally.
I know that's a lot of if's, unless's, and but's, but all that stuff assumes they not only know about this tech but expect it too, from what is a normal looking Flame Choke. The most likely thing they'll do is buffer a N-air trying to do Getup Attack.

Edit: tested this a bit further. You need to choose whether to fastfall or not based on the character. If the character falls slower than Ganon, just run off the stage and hold towards it. If they fall faster than Ganon, make a circle motion with the stick towards the stage as you run off, like you're doing a normal optimal ledge trump.

 

[Opana]

Not sure but I think if you tech the very edge of the stage it can put you offstage, I can't help but feel that's happened to me.

 

[Swoops]

@ Blobface

On the ledge choking thing, from my testing this does not work on any opponent buffering a get up option. So get up attack, roll inwards/outwards, stand up will occur before the opponent is pushed off the ledge. I could be missing something, but I could never force the opponent off before they got up...which is a shame because this could have been awesome >.<. I might still be an option for anyone that chooses to stay on the ground for more than a second though, so it still has a use. Very neat.

A couple tidbits just in case no one has mentioned them. Flame choking back towards the ledge and delaying your snap is suuuuper useful against low recovery. Catches the vulnerability frames.

Also, for anyone having trouble with ledge hop > AC BAir, setting one of your shoulders to jump makes it pretty easy.

 

[Urthclaw]

Speaking of ledge trumping, what is the best way to do it? Just running off the stage, short-hopping backwards, or Flame Choke offstage? I've been using Flame Choke but I'm not sure if it's the fastest. It's probably the simplest however.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Speaking of ledge trumping, what is the best way to do it? Just running off the stage, short-hopping backwards, or Flame Choke offstage? I've been using Flame Choke but I'm not sure if it's the fastest. It's probably the simplest however.

Flame Choke ledge trump is horrible. You telegraph it like 30 years in advance by doing it that way giving your opponent all the time in the world to react to it and get up or even punish you for it.

The best ways to ledge trump that force your opponent to guess are either just doing a standard quick ledge hug, or Wizkick ledge canceling into a trump (keeping in mind that you can always instead choose to space yourself to cover a buffered getup).

Or if you're really good, you ledge trump, ledgehop autocancel B-air (which will actually hit most characters if you time it right), and DA if they ledge roll.

 

[WwwWario]

This might have been mentioned (several times) before, but: Am I the only one who often uses Ganon's Up B (Dark Dive) and get lots of KOs from the uppercut on the end?

Dark Dive doesn't seem very good at first. The grab is super-weak and is easily punished. Then, there's the uppercut. Usually, if I use Up Throw, Down Air on ground, or any other move that sends the opponent high up, I jump after them for a follow up. When they see this, most people use their second jump as soon as they're out of the hitstun to avoid it, and everytime I know the player does this, I use my Up B when they use their second jump, and I can tell you, I've gotten LOTS of early KOS with that final uppercut on the top blast zone. I've gotten KOs on them on aroudn 70%. Even though it's risky to use, I feel the uppercut on it still is underrated. I use it a lot and find it very good. The grab itself, however - buff the heck out of that thing!

 

[Blobface]

On the ledge choking thing, from my testing this does not work on any opponent buffering a get up option. So get up attack, roll inwards/outwards, stand up will occur before the opponent is pushed off the ledge. I could be missing something, but I could never force the opponent off before they got up...which is a shame because this could have been awesome >.<. I might still be an option for anyone that chooses to stay on the ground for more than a second though, so it still has a use. Very neat.

Tested it again and I am absolutely certain it's guaranteed. Tried buffering every getup option out of it as Ganondorf (who we have the least frame advantage on) and was shoved off the stage before I could do anything. On Ganon the spacing was really strict though. The combination of large frame + low frame advantage makes it insanely hard.

One addition though: characters that can exert strong DI against choke (Mario, Wario) can DI out or in to grab the edge or land on the stage respectfully. If they DI in, you can react to it (DI'ing Flame Choke buffers that getup option IIRC) and land a charged D-smash, and if they DI to the edge, they're right back where they started (given the likely setup).

 

[Swoops]

Tested it again and I am absolutely certain it's guaranteed. Tried buffering every getup option out of it as Ganondorf (who we have the least frame advantage on) and was shoved off the stage before I could do anything. On Ganon the spacing was really strict though. The combination of large frame + low frame advantage makes it insanely hard.

One addition though: characters that can exert strong DI against choke (Mario, Wario) can DI out or in to grab the edge or land on the stage respectfully. If they DI in, you can react to it (DI'ing Flame Choke buffers that getup option IIRC) and land a charged D-smash, and if they DI to the edge, they're right back where they started (given the likely setup).

I hope someone can snag a video of it then. I feel bad that I can't get it . Had my friend holding left, right, and mashing get up attack as DK and Shiek and I was still unable to push them off. I really want this to work as I can see it making his ledge presence even scarier.

EDIT: Wait, we are talking about the same thing, correct? Flame choking so they land right near the edge of the stage, then running forward to push them over the edge into free fall?

 

[Sykkamorre]

DD has one use.

In custom ditto's, it's good for catching DF.

That's my contribution to that topic.

 

[Blobface]

EDIT: Wait, we are talking about the same thing, correct? Flame choking so they land right near the edge of the stage, then running forward to push them over the edge into free fall?

Yes.

Also, from what I've done with it, it seems most difficult on characters with large frames, rather than being dependent on how much frame advantage you have. I can't get video unfortunately, but if you want an easier way to space it, I've found that as long as Ganondorf's hand is directly over the ledge (but not offstage) during the choking animation, it'll work.

How quickly are you dashing after the Flame Choke? I've been tapping forward until I see the dash animation start to push them off as fast as possible.

Also found something else interesting. If they tech in place, you can still shove them off. Doesn't work with techrolls though.

 

[Opana]

I use the uppercut a lot. It can snag kills if you read their jump by the upper blastline, and people can easily mistake it's range since it's really disjointed.

Also, today I learned we can Ganoncide Fox out of his side b, I caught him out of it as he used it predictably.

 

[Blobface]

Here's some neat anti-Sheik tech. It's not going to make the Sheik matchup even or anything, but considering how hard it is to edgeguard Sheik already and how much distance her Up-B alone covers, I think it's significant. As shown you simply do a retreating F-air out of a double jump as she uses her Up-B to catch the ledge vulnerability.

Usually going after the 1 frame ledge vulnerability is a crapshoot since the actual frame they grab it is unpredictable, but since Sheik teleports at an exact frame, you can catch it pretty easily.

She can still recover high obviously, but it's fairly easy to switch into this out of a high edgeguard attempt. If you think she's going for the ledge, punch away.

 

[adom4]

i'm not sure if it's known already but for some(?) characters you can barely see their DI right after the choke but before they hit the ground, it makes predicting much easier & you can pretty much punish on reaction, i've gotten a lot more choke chains since i found it out .

 

[shadenexus18]

This might have been mentioned (several times) before, but: Am I the only one who often uses Ganon's Up B (Dark Dive) and get lots of KOs from the uppercut on the end?

Dark Dive doesn't seem very good at first. The grab is super-weak and is easily punished. Then, there's the uppercut. Usually, if I use Up Throw, Down Air on ground, or any other move that sends the opponent high up, I jump after them for a follow up. When they see this, most people use their second jump as soon as they're out of the hitstun to avoid it, and everytime I know the player does this, I use my Up B when they use their second jump, and I can tell you, I've gotten LOTS of early KOS with that final uppercut on the top blast zone. I've gotten KOs on them on aroudn 70%. Even though it's risky to use, I feel the uppercut on it still is underrated. I use it a lot and find it very good. The grab itself, however - buff the heck out of that thing!

I like hitting people with the Dark Dive Uppercut too.

The Dark Dive Grab isn't all that bad. When your foe is at 90% damage or higher, you can use the Dark Dive Grab to ricochet people off the wall for a K.O....ya know...when you're bouncing them against the ledge. It works like a charm.

 

[Naroghin]

I like hitting people with the Dark Dive Uppercut too.

The Dark Dive Grab isn't all that bad. When your foe is at 90% damage or higher, you can use the Dark Dive Grab to ricochet people off the wall for a K.O....ya know...when you're bouncing them against the ledge. It works like a charm.

In higher level play you want to try and make sure, if you can at all control/time it, to get it to connect when they're techincally inside the ledge so that they can't tech it.

 

[Blobface]

This is something I'd love to see implemented, the Tip N Slide. The tipman will always send people sliding, which, in the case of platforms can cause a platform fall. On Battlefield, platform falls are untechable, so the combo in this video is guaranteed. This is only the beginning of what you can do with this. They're in hitstun so long you can basically combo into anything.

Longest combo I could get was D-air, TNS them off the platform, D-air them again when they land, sending them to the top platform, land another TNS into a B-air/F-air for a 70% damage guaranteed* combo.

Lab it up yourselves and see what you can find!

*they can tech when they land on the platforms, but that can open up even more options since teching on platforms is so limited.

Edit: This is even better than I thought. His entire moveset can set up for this, and right when he can't set it up on the lower platforms, he can set it up on the high platform. I'm getting 66% combos out of a grab at 0%. You can even TNS someone off a platform, jab lock them with another tipman, then hit their getup with yet another setup into a TNS. SO MUCH POWER.

Bonus Edit: Make sure you always Fullhop the U-air so it autocancels. Otherwise you won't have nearly enough time to followup. Get good at the spacing so you don't need to adjust mid-jump.

Important edit: It turns out, if you fall off a platform while bouncing on the ground, you can buffer something out of it, so some of this is not guaranteed. However, you can still read their tech/getup option and get an actual platform fall, and if they don't slide far enough the tipman will jab lock them, so it's not a complete loss. Still salty though. I'll have to do some human testing to see if this can still be implemented.

 

[krazyzyko]

LIFT > down B ASAP is faster than Ganon's edge getup attack. If done correctly only ganons aerial down B landing animation will happen.

 

[Opana]

So....I forgot to mention but I'm pretty sure we can SDI Luigi's double fair and roll out of his second grab. I also think we can SDI his bair out of dthrow depending on where it hits us so that we fly the opposite direction. Both seemed to work vs. Poyo, but I can't be certain.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Bonus Edit: Make sure you always Fullhop the U-air so it autocancels.

Blobface, I'm pretty sure the Uair autocancels out of a short hop if you dont fast fall (Short hop, flick C stick up). Are you sure you meant to say fullhop?

 

[Blobface]

Blobface, I'm pretty sure the Uair autocancels out of a short hop if you dont fast fall (Short hop, flick C stick up). Are you sure you meant to say fullhop?

U-air requires a Fullhop to autocancel on a platform.

 

[Swoops]

I think I found something neat, although probably not super useful. Apologies if has already been discovered.

So if you know about instaquake at the ledge and on platforms you know that you can quake instantly without leaving the ground. Well if you do a ledge jump into an instant quake, but your opponent is on stage right next to the ledge, you will actually slide back off and cancel the lag of the quake.

The neat thing is that since you technically quake ONTO the stage, you regain all of your invincibility when you grab the ledge again. Could be useful to bait people who are pressuring you at the ledge.

 

[Opana]

I think I found something neat, although probably not super useful. Apologies if has already been discovered.

So if you know about instaquake at the ledge and on platforms you know that you can quake instantly without leaving the ground. Well if you do a ledge jump into an instant quake, but your opponent is on stage right next to the ledge, you will actually slide back off and cancel the lag of the quake.

The neat thing is that since you technically quake ONTO the stage, you regain all of your invincibility when you grab the ledge again. Could be useful to bait people who are pressuring you at the ledge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPvcK5OULf4

I still haven't explored this tech too much though honestly.

Also, we can use reverse Warlock punch out of a ledge hope while Castle Siege phase 3 and Lylat are tilted up and in the process of going down. Normally we fall just short of recovery, but because the ledge lowers it is now within reach and we now have an unusual edge guard.. I may get a video just because I haven't recorded any interesting findings in awhile.

 

[Blobface]

From what I've tested, it seems Ganondorf's shins and feet are invincible during his U-air, all the way around. This means a properly spaced Ganondorf's U-air will beat or trade with everything once the hitbox comes out bar obvious stuff like Z-airs. It's also as fast as an airdodge (only slower by a few frames at worst). This makes it possible to set traps where the other person's only option is to jump, since if they do an attack, they'll get beat out, and if they airdodge, you can just do another U-air.

 

[krazyzyko]

When free falling from the sides of the screen you can reverse warlock punch > turn around to gain more aerial mobility towards the stage.

 

[Blobface]

Due to changes in shield-hitlagep mechanics, fast fallen B-air and F-air are now safe on shield. Could actually allow Ganon to pressure shields.

 

[Bisdak]

Alright a few tricks depends also on Match ups.
Ganon vs Charzard: Warlock punch has great super armor, once reversed into charzard's fire blitz, it can KO even from 20 percent.
Ganon vs Ness: Wizard kick rides over pk fire, and can hit too after pk fire misses.
Ganon vs projectiles: The spartan kick can destroy most projectiles.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Alright a few tricks depends also on Match ups.
Ganon vs Charizard: Warlock punch has great super armor, once reversed into charizard's fire blitz, it can KO even from 20 percent.
.

If you reverse Warlock Punch it loses all the super armor immediately, but yes the regular punch could be used against Flare Blitz.

 

[_Magus_]

EDIT: *sees above discussion* *face palms*

Still, this is a decent summary:

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but absorbing Charizard's Flare Blitz with Warlock Punch Super Armor = Free Guaranteed Warlock Punch. When Flare Blitz connects with the SA, it registers it as a hit and goes into the recoil animation, where Charizard is absolutely helpless. As Zard falls back, the Punch continues, and the very tip of it manages to connect with Charizard before he can get up. It's incredibly satisfying.

 

[Jyro]

So I kinda made a big discovery. It involves 2 things.
1. There are two frames of ledge snap vulnerability.
2. When you hold down while offstage flame choking toward the ledge, you don't immediately grab the ledge (release down to grab ledge).
So you can cover the ledge by keeping the flame choke hitbox out. (Remember aerial flamechoke's hitboxes are active frames 19-31) Teleport recoveries to the ledge are actually edgeguardable as long as you read/react to the startup of your opponent's recovery. The idea started as theorycraft, but then I tested it in training mode on Sheik and Palutena and it works, and used it in an online Anther's Ladder match against a Sonic. I'm going to assume it works on other teleporters (Zelda, Mewtwo) and covers ledge on low recoveries without dangerous hitboxes (Robin, Pit/DPit, Dedede, Olimar, Villager, Megaman, ROB, Greninja, DHD, BowJow, Rosaluma).