Ganon's Book of Sinister Secrets (Discoveries, Trix & ATs)

[HeavyLobster]

Here's a niche thing I've found, though I haven't yet been able to utilize it. You may be aware that Fair hits slightly behind Ganondorf where he raises his fist behind his head. You can actually use this hitbox to hit them backward, and while facing towards the stage you can do a retreating Fair while going offstage to knock them off and at around 25-35% it links to Bair decently well, and I was even able to get it to register as a true combo at times on Falcon at 35%. You might be able to land it on someone who rolls behind you at the ledge, or even RAR it to hit someone who's gotten up from the ledge. I'm not sure if this would generally be outclassed by tipman stuff or something, but it's interesting nonetheless. Also it doesn't really work on short characters.

 

[Opana]

If they exhaust their last jump after Uthrow, cover their landing with Choke and repeat. I sid this 4 times in a row, as should they not jump a nair covers the majority, if not all other options with few exceptions making them likely to jump.

 

[jmanup85]

If they exhaust their last jump after Uthrow, cover their landing with Choke and repeat. I sid this 4 times in a row, as should they not jump a nair covers the majority, if not all other options with few exceptions making them likely to jump.

You picked up Mewtwo?

 

[Opana]

You picked up Mewtwo?

I was going to, but I'm too reckless with him and don't like his recovery.

So at super low percents, Uthrow throws most of the cast on to the top platform with I believe only the option to tech but I'm not positive. If they hit it and don't tech though we pretty much get a free follow up. Double jump rising Dair actually forces a get up like semi spike Uair at low percents, so for example at 0% you could Uthrow Diddy to the top platform and force a et up with dair, then maybe fast fall and dair him again out of a double jump. I bet this would work at Town and City too, maybe even better with that platfoem varying in height.

I suspect at mid percents dthrow will do a similar thing on bf's low platforms, and it'd probably be easier to follow up to. Dair does this as well although they essentially get two chances to tech, Usmash might.

 

[Naroghin]

Hmm, I think I'm getting lost in your instructions. Are you saying you can uthrow to the top platform, then perform a FH>DJ rising dair, which would force a getup that could be punished by another Dair? If that's the case I would make the second Dair a fallthrough>DJ AC Dair, as it would allow for even further followups. Assuming the string started at 0% I guess they would be at low-mid percents by the end of the second Dair so you could follow up with another Dair; SH or FH depending on DI I guess. Hitting the lab, now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So, everyone here probably has heard about frame cancel D-air. What's a little bit underexplored is frame cancel N-air.

The best way to try to perform it is by doing a N-air and fastfalling about when you reach the apex of your short hop. While regular N-air can set up some low% strings, successfully frame canceling the N-air makes N-air -> D-tilt/DA/Dashgrab a combo on everyone.

Additionally on many characters if you frame cancel, N-air -> D-smash is viable as well.

I actually think frame canceling N-air with some training is feasible to apply in neutral. It's nothing huge, but doing it successfully adds more consistency to your low% combo game.

 

[Opana]

Hmm, I think I'm getting lost in your instructions. Are you saying you can uthrow to the top platform, then perform a FH>DJ rising dair, which would force a getup that could be punished by another Dair? If that's the case I would make the second Dair a fallthrough>DJ AC Dair, as it would allow for even further followups. Assuming the string started at 0% I guess they would be at low-mid percents by the end of the second Dair so you could follow up with another Dair; SH or FH depending on DI I guess. Hitting the lab, now.

Pretty much, although you don't land on the plat and have to fast fall and jump/dj up again. They can jump away(Except maybe D3, need to test.) but it puts them in a very bad position that pretty much forces a jump or eat an aerial after teching/landing. If they jump though, you can take advantage of that and juggle them offstage for early kills, I've done so although not utilizing any platform help.

So it seems Uair's semi spike from above, sour nair2, non-spiking dair, and fair slide them off the platform into an untechable fall at varying percents. Haven't tested much but fair/dair are at super low percents, nair at low percents, and need to test uair.

EDIT: Uthrow on Town and City's middle platform of phase 1 can string pretty well into Usmash or dair. While on this middle platform, when it starts moving right at the end of phase 1 I believe dthrow can string pretty nicely into a backwards fsmash, although you may need to time this very well not to die.

Dthrow on Smashville's platform while in the direction it's moving leads into Usmash well.

Usmash can lead to a footstool, this can be set up pretty easy if they air dodge dthrow. Pulled it off once so far in a match vs. a human, gonna try some more. It relys on thm not jumpig thougn, eitger that or not reacting immediately.

Usmash->Footstool->FF Dair->Uair Forced Get Up->Dair(Preferrably frame cancelled)-> Dark Fist may be a good kill string after they have some percent, although alternatively you could follow the second Dair with an Uair forced get up into say an fsmash or even another dair lol.

 

[Naroghin]

@ Opana Ah, I see. When I went to test I noticed that while landing on the platform I was never able to act soon enough. I also tried jumping to the very edge of a lower platform to start a SH DJ AC Dair but it just takes too much time. I guess I'll just have to settle for other options.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I found something really funny about frame canceling. Probably not unique to just Ganon.

If you buffer a move in the window at which it would connect via frame canceling, you can also immediately input something else after that which would work if you missed the frame cancel window.

So as Ganon, you can input D-smash in case you frame cancel a hit, but also buffer Jab or do a dashgrab instead if you miss the window.

Not unlike piano inputs in fighting games where when performing a combo, you input multiple viable moves within your leniency window.

 

[Blobface]

Here's some neat little tech to augment your edgeguarding: http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator/v/5006780?t=3h36m08s
http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator/v/5006780?t=3h36m08s
I labbed it out a bit and here's how it went. All testing was on Sheik since her recovery is a pain to edgeguard.

N-air
Difficulty: Easy. Reward: Low

U-air (my personal recommendation)
Difficulty: Medium. Reward: High

F-air
Difficulty: Hard. Reward: Depends. If they go backwards or get stage spiked they will definitely die. If they fly above the stage barely anything happens.

D-air
Difficulty: SAUCY. Reward: Enough style points to complete your smash career.

What I personally found most effective was jumping off facing the stage, then DJ U-airing the ledge just before they hit the it to cover the whole ledge with hitbox. It stage spikes hard, and once you get used to it, it's pretty easy. I think this will be especially effective against Sheik and (@ A2ZOMG ) people who hug the stage to recover.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Here's some neat little tech to augment your edgeguarding: http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator/v/5006780?t=3h36m08s
I labbed it out a bit and here's how it went. All testing was on Sheik since her recovery is a pain to edgeguard.

N-air
Difficulty: Easy. Reward: Low

U-air (my personal recommendation)
Difficulty: Medium. Reward: High

F-air
Difficulty: Hard. Reward: Depends. If they go backwards or get stage spiked they will definitely die. If they fly above the stage barely anything happens.

D-air
Difficulty: SAUCY. Reward: Enough style points to complete your smash career.

What I personally found most effective was jumping off facing the stage, then DJ U-airing the ledge just before they hit the it to cover the whole ledge with hitbox. It stage spikes hard, and once you get used to it, it's pretty easy. I think this will be especially effective against Sheik and (@ A2ZOMG ) people who hug the stage to recover.

I just labbed this exact thing just now. Also you left out
U-tilt
Difficulty: Brawldorf vs MK. Reward: 7th Smash God, who is destined to be the leader of them all.

 

[DunnoBro]

Wish I thought of doing this at S@X, but it seems like dropkick can be used essentially like sonic's inward dair. You just jump out while facing the stage, then dropkick so ganon gets stuck under the ledge with the dropkick animation. (so most of the hitbox stays right below the lip)

This essentially puts out a weaker, but much longer lasting and larger hitbox bair to challenge recoveries with. Haven't tested much with it yet, but for some reason even if you don't get the inward hit for a stage spike, the times it hits outwards seems to have this weirdly strong knockback that just kills around 70% (no rage, training mode)

Dropkick has ridiculous high priority so I'm anxious to see what recoveries this screws over best.

 

[Opana]

Fastfalling with forward momentum on a downward slant gives us a noticeable boost forward. Kongo Jungle has perfect slants for this, and can make moves like Fair and Uair combo(frame cancel)/string starters. We can also Usmash them while on the plat moving up and fall through to dair them

 

[Naroghin]

Also, SH Dair auto-cancels on slants, of course, meaning we can get some nasty Dair strings. Achieved earlier today: SHAC Dair (down slope)>FHAC Dair (up slope)>FHAC DAir>SHDJAC Dair to platform>FH Dair. Situational, I know, and Dair was stale as musty ol' scrotums by the end, but it was incredibly satisfying.

 

[redcometchar]

Does everyone know about ganon's Footstool reset combo?
FC dair -> footstool -> weak hit up air (jab locks) repeat

Edit: I guess there has been a post about this before. disregard

 

[Dark Phazon]

I love how his comment on the video is "AH-! AH-! AH-! AH-!" Ganon's ftilt grunt is so unintentionally hilarious and I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed.

Also, this mother****ing thing: https://vine.co/v/OPteB95FWQt

This is outright disgusting...is this a legit combo?
I need to learn this i dont care...
Wow...so grimey...

 

[redcometchar]

Does anyone know if it is possible to hell drop before you land on a platfom? Like on your way up through one?

 

[Naroghin]

Does anyone know if it is possible to hell drop before you land on a platfom? Like on your way up through one?

I'm sorry, "hell drop"?

 

[redcometchar]

There was a tech discovered a while back on this thread where if you wf right after falling through a platform the earthquake hitbox on the aerial wf comes out on the platform but you still fall through.

Maybe it was renamed ill look for the post.

 

[redcometchar]

I cant find the original post. But I know its there!!!

Ive been labbing different uses for it. Right now im looking into using it affter a flame choke that puts your opponent on a platform.

Right now its an ok option but if I can do it without landing on the platform ganon can POTENTIALLY COVER EVERY OPTION WITHOUT NEEDING TO REACT.

And get followups.

 

[jmanup85]

I cant find the original post. But I know its there!!!

Ive been labbing different uses for it. Right now im looking into using it affter a flame choke that puts your opponent on a platform.

Right now its an ok option but if I can do it without landing on the platform ganon can POTENTIALLY COVER EVERY OPTION WITHOUT NEEDING TO REACT.

And get followups.

I know what you're talking about but I can't find it either. How exactly do you do that tech anyways?

 

[redcometchar]

I know what you're talking about but I can't find it either. How exactly do you do that tech anyways?

On a platform fall through and wizard foot right aftwards.

 

[Naroghin]

Interesting. Looks like I'll be hitting the training mode tonight.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'd say the reward, even if garantueed, is too small to compete with Usmash or instaDJ AC Dair.

 

[redcometchar]

Ok so bad news everyone.
Hell drop is fraudulent. Even though the sound effect and visual effect both appear there isn't actually a hitbox.
Sadness all around.
The same is true for the ledge tech that was similar.

 

[Blobface]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agq8D15-y2o&index=7&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5Q1AR3Z9l549HBoZzpBAz0h

It appears that Ganondorf can actually hold down during Aerudo for a guaranteed Ganoncide even on Sheik. While it does force you to kill yourself obviously, it's still a free stock if she needs to use her up-b. This could also potentially see use with Flame Chain in matchups where it's not useful.

 

[jmanup85]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agq8D15-y2o&index=7&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5Q1AR3Z9l549HBoZzpBAz0h

It appears that Ganondorf can actually hold down during Aerudo for a guaranteed Ganoncide even on Sheik. While it does force you to kill yourself obviously, it's still a free stock if she needs to use her up-b. This could also potentially see use with Flame Chain in matchups where it's not useful.

Useful if you're up a stock or if you about to die with the other player at near 0%. I've been known to use this a bit too much, although not as a way to catch the 1 frame ledge vulnerability.

Edit: I tested it and lol'ed

 

[A2ZOMG]

I definitely saw Gungnir and Potechi do this. Frame cancel Nair can be BUFFERED. Fullhop AD, and fastfall Nair.

 

[Blobface]

Found some neat stuff. First of all, at very very specific %'s, U-smash can true combo into Fair for a whopping 41 damage true combo.

More importantly, it's possible to hit ledge-snap vulnerability with Fair facing away from the stage by jumping down then DJ Fairing from below. It kills at absolutely ridiculous %'s and is surprisingly easy to pull of as long as you time it right. Yet another good anti-Sheik option.

 

[Naroghin]

Good stuff! Any examples of the specific percents the Usmash>Fair works at? I assume it must differ between different members of the cast but it would be good to know where to start while testing.

 

[Z1GMA]

Alright, so the GYRUDO is garantueed on the whole roster.
Keep this in mind if you're playing 2on2 with or against a ROB.

 

[Blobface]

I was messing around with Wizard's Assault today, and it may actually be decent if combined with Flame Chain. The two moves have very good synergy together. I'll have to test it more later though.

 

[Z1GMA]

I was messing around with Wizard's Assault today, and it may actually be decent if combined with Flame Chain. The two moves have very good synergy together. I'll have to test it more later though.

Sounds weird - care to share, bro?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Sounds weird - care to share, bro?

Knockback from chain sets up for assault if they decide to roll in either direction.

 

[Z1GMA]

Knockback from chain sets up for assault if they decide to roll in either direction.

Is that it? I mean there's almost no profit at all in hitting ppl with Assault, except in teams.

 

[Blobface]

Sounds weird - care to share, bro?

Wizard's Assault, despite its flaws, goes the furthest distance by a considerable margin, almost 3/4's of FD. As a result, it can take you really far offstage for some incredibly deadly edgeguarding. It's useless by itself though, since the only way to set that up is to land an F-tilt right next to the ledge.

Flame Chain however, sets up for this perfectly. It has horizontal knockback and will drag the opponent to the ledge with no trouble at all. On top of that, you can use Flame Chain to block the ledge for a good 60 frames or so by holding down to avoid grabbing it. It might make a Ganondorf an edgeguarding monster, even better than Pikachu. I haven't tested it a lot yet though, so whether it's worth giving up Choke and Wizkick remains to be seen.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Personally? No.

Choke says no to shields. Chain gets stopped by them pretty much.

And I struggle to find a use for aerial assault.

And wiz kick recovery is too good.

 

[jmanup85]

Wizard's Assault, despite its flaws, goes the furthest distance by a considerable margin, almost 3/4's of FD. As a result, it can take you really far offstage for some incredibly deadly edgeguarding. It's useless by itself though, since the only way to set that up is to land an F-tilt right next to the ledge.

Flame Chain however, sets up for this perfectly. It has horizontal knockback and will drag the opponent to the ledge with no trouble at all. On top of that, you can use Flame Chain to block the ledge for a good 60 frames or so by holding down to avoid grabbing it. It might make a Ganondorf an edgeguarding monster, even better than Pikachu. I haven't tested it a lot yet though, so whether it's worth giving up Choke and Wizkick remains to be seen.

If you intend to hit the opponent with Assault while going offstage with it, wouldn't it bring them back to the stage? Unless you want to just get over there fast and smack them with another move

 

[MagiusNecros]

If you intend to hit the opponent with Assault while going offstage with it, wouldn't it bring them back to the stage? Unless you want to just get over there fast and smack them with another move

Yeah it would bring em back. Kinda pointless unless you want more damage.

The delay of the attack could fool people though.

 

[Blobface]

If you intend to hit the opponent with Assault while going offstage with it, wouldn't it bring them back to the stage? Unless you want to just get over there fast and smack them with another move

You don't hit them with it, instead you use it purely for mobility. Chain usually knocks people far enough away/low enough that you won't hit with assault. You float out there and smack them in the face with an U-air or F-air.