Ganon's Book of Sinister Secrets (Discoveries, Trix & ATs)

[Jiom]

What's more amusing is how he's able to get dairs at such moments.

The stun on the attack is probably the longest non smash stun in the game, so footstools at such percentages are guaranteed if not teched.

Here's one against Lizardon. https://vine.co/v/OIUU3XFIApH

Similar stuff could be done against Diddy with his banana I believe.

Well you only get one use out of banana but if you check out some more of gungnir's vines he has some sick combos with robs gyro, in a similar fashion.

Edit: Particularly this vine https://vine.co/v/Owv7wZ2Xj1A

 

[Opana]

Yeah it takes one good read after they waste their jump to at least get a good follow up. I use it as a sort of tech chase, continually reading their landing and uthrowing at times.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

DAir is a good for mixing up your options, especially with the footstool combos you could pull off from it.

The push back it gives shields is also probably amongst the most in the game.

 

[JmacAttack]

DAir is a good for mixing up your options, especially with the footstool combos you could pull off from it.

The push back it gives shields is also probably amongst the most in the game.

Jump in place dair is a good counter to things like Falcon's Dashgrab and Bowser Jr's Side-B, as well. Things that put the opponent right on top of you. Might also work on Sonic, but it's much harder since he's so short during his side-B, and he moves very quickly. It's a good way to make them fear your power.

 

[Blobface]

I've found something interesting with Warlock Punch's super armor. If Ganondorf starts WP on the ground and is knocked off of the platform he's standing on (primarily by windboxes), he maintains his super armor in the air. It's uses are incredibly limited, but it can likely find some uses in team battles, and it turns Kong Cyclone into a coin flip of getting instakilled by an aerial super armored warlock punch!
Warlock Punch > Copter Kong

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon's usmash is disjointed. There's a total of three hit boxes, one on the foot, one on the leg, and and invisible disjoint one in front of Ganon.

The hitbox that is created in front of it acts as its own "move".

What I mean by this is, with the new clashing properties ('DBZ clash', where both opponents react in frames of lag) the front hit box of usmash gives Ganon no lag if it were to clash with another move that would still give the opponent lag (a lot of projectiles do this).

 

[Blobface]

Yeah, Clashes overall benefit Ganon in this game. Since Ganon overall has the highest damage-per-attack, he'll have the frame advantage in almost every clash he ends up in. It's hilarious to stop some of the weaker side smashes with a tilt and still get the frame advantage.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I've found that with the proper timing, an aerial Flame Choke against Kong Cyclone can produce a momentum Ganoncide that carries you both offstage even if performed onstage, ala Brawl Minus. It can actually go quite far, and might be useful if your opponent tries a predictable platform/stage cancelled Kong Cyclone. Sometimes it doesn't do this, and will send you straight down like normal,(maybe the direction you're holding the control stick at the time determines this) and of course DK will hit you out of Flame Choke if you mistime it and connect during the hitbox frames.
Edit: After further testing, it appears that if you grab DK out of the windbox, you'll either go up and forward or down and forward, depending on what angle you grab DK from. From slightly below you'll go up, from above you'll go down. Going up generally results in a Ganoncide if you're anywhere near the ledge. Going down can result in hitting the ground faster than normal, and can sometimes result in you slamming him down while you slide off and are able to act. Be warned that if you miss DK but get caught in the windbox you can fly offstage helplessly. You only go straight down if the windbox is not active. Either way this looks really cool if you pull it off, though how worthwhile it is to go for this is unclear.

 

[Opana]

Run off ledge grab is amazing, we have so much control from here just by ledge hopping or letting go of it. We can cover so much area, and can even ledge hop into say Dark Dive away from the stage, score an uppercut kill, and fastfall back to the ledge.

 

[OmegaXT]

So far my strategy has been to MAKE THEM FEAR THE FLAME CHOKE

 

[Ray_Kalm]

In Brawl predicting a back roll after a flame choke with fsmash was simply cstick backwards.

Here it's different for every character. Little Mac you'll have to hold a bit before releasing when he techs. For Diddy you need to walk forward a bit before releasing the fsmash.

Someone should make a list of this and figure out the proper punishes for each character with fsmash after a choke, this is very crucial for Ganon.

 

[adom4]

In Brawl predicting a back roll after a flame choke with fsmash was simply cstick backwards.

Here it's different for every character. Little Mac you'll have to hold a bit before releasing when he techs. For Diddy you need to walk forward a bit before releasing the fsmash.

Someone should make a list of this and figure out the proper punishes for each character with fsmash after a choke, this is very crucial for Ganon.

I know toon link doesn't roll through Ganon after a choke (non tech of course), i think R.O.B also doesn't roll through.

 

[Xinc]

Different topic: Nair has a weak hitbox below and behind Ganon (very small). It's easier to connect both hits and then followup due to lower lag plus hitstun. Connecting with the second hit of neutral air against characters who don't have a fast jab-easier to connect a flame choke followup

 

[adom4]

I noticed Mii Brawler still gets hit by choke to D-tilt if he tech rolls away (like Little mac & Bowser), i'm not sure if it applies to all of the Mii sizes.

 

[Xinc]

I noticed Mii Brawler still gets hit by choke to D-tilt if he tech rolls away (like Little mac & Bowser), i'm not sure if it applies to all of the Mii sizes.

I thought Brawler was unable to tech roll?

 

[adom4]

I thought Brawler was unable to tech roll?

All of the Miis are able to tech roll out of a choke, i don't know where that rumor came from.

 

[Xinc]

All of the Miis are able to tech roll out of a choke, i don't know where that rumor came from.

I heard that somewhere. D:

 

[Blobface]

The timing is probably a bit wonky for small miis since they take longer to reach the ground.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Even if you knew this existed, I don't see any Ganon players using this (and in my case, I really only became aware of it recently), so I'm bringing it up. If you use tilt stick, then you can disregard this (though I strictly believe Smash stick is superior on Ganon, even if only slightly).

One nice way to buffer D-tilt while walking is to hold the control stick diagonally downward to walk, and then hit the C stick downwards.

There are quite a few situations where I believe this is in fact highly valuable, because this is a safer way of efficiently advancing towards your foe than DA. Ultimately if you know how to space this really well, it's another tool in your arsenal that your opponent has to respect in midrange.

Also, I've accidentally done Frame Canceled D-air combos on For Glory during roll/spotdodge reads. Not something to count on by any means, but they're definitely usable in that situation.

 

[Radical Larry]

Okay, I've found many of useful (and usable) things with Ganondorf, by which I mean:

1) Ganondorf's D-Throw > D-Spec works with his normal WizKick, not just WizDrop. In fact, you can use it 2-3 times depending on character, use it to produce a 0% true combo, and lastly, if near the edge on the second or third time, you can combo into F-Air > F-Air and still recover.

2) Speaking of F-Air for a moment, the attack can be used as a heavy and hard-hitting gimp combo around 20% damage starting. Once you knock the opponent off the edge, F-Air > F-Air will end up making most characters' recoveries downright useless. If some manage to recover, a simple D-Air will finish the job.

3) There seems to be a hitbox on an aerial reverse Warlock Punch (landing on the ground) that sends opponents flying backwards; this is actually, from my tests, a one-hit KO move on characters from 0% damage. It's also a very, very surprising move to say the least. Of course, it isn't able to OHKO near the middle, but at the edge of the stage, and is benefited by rage.

Also, a quick question to you guys is, what would you do if you broke the shield of an opponent with his U-Tilt?

 

[jahkzheng]

Also, a quick question to you guys is, what would you do if you broke the shield of an opponent with his U-Tilt?

I think most go for the reverse warlock punch because it's very effective at taking a stock in a single hit. At higher damages you have more options of course though. I've ftilted after shield breaks on high damage foes because... well, you know why.

 

[Radical Larry]

I tell you, I once went on and did a Flame Choke just to give insult to injury for my opponent.

 

[Blobface]

The 18 characters below (Credit to Magus) all get put up onto the platform out of grounded Flame Choke on Battlefield. If they miss the tech (which they likely will due to the different timing), you can actually read their tech option and land Dark Fists on the platform and get an insanely low % kill guaranteed provided you read correctly (training mode confirmed). Even better are the characters it works on, most notably Diddy, Wario, and Pikachu, who are all high/top tiers, and Villager, who's one of our worst matchups otherwise. This can land you kills below 60%!


















Poor Kirby though. As if Ganon didn't destroy him enough.

 

[jahkzheng]

The 18 characters below (Credit to Magus) all get put up onto the platform out of grounded Flame Choke on Battlefield. If they miss the tech (which they likely will due to the different timing), you can actually read their tech option and land Dark Fists on the platform and get an insanely low % kill guaranteed provided you read correctly (training mode confirmed). Even better are the characters it works on, most notably Diddy, Wario, and Pikachu, who are all high/top tiers, and Villager, who's one of our worst matchups otherwise. This can land you kills below 60%!


















Poor Kirby though. As if Ganon didn't destroy him enough.

I'm curious, I haven't checked the data or tested myself but... how does dark fists compare to usmash uncharged? I take it the double hit of fists and the elevated final hit makes it more devastating? I know in non-custom sets, usmash is the go to after a similar choke setup. I need to try customs out more. Only really play For Glory so far, and not much.

 

[Blobface]

I'm fairly sure this kills earlier than sweet spotted U-Smash, as you said because it takes them so high in the air. More importantly it's much easier to land against multiple getup options since Dark Fists hits on frame 12 while U-smash hits on frame 21. You need to commit to U-Smash beforehand to hit it out of this setup, but you can land Dark Fists almost on reaction. I'll test this more later today.

U-Smash is better for building damage though. 24 vs 17 damage.

 

[Z1GMA]

U-Smash is better for building damage though. 24 vs 17 damage.

I'd also use Usmash over Fsmash at low %'s after reading my opponent's roll after a Gerudo (or when simply reading a roll).

Usmash's huge hitstun combined with its low IASA makes comboing off of it easier that stealing rupies from a dead Octorok.

 

[Blobface]

More Dark Fists. Fun for the whole family!

• If Ganon uses Dark Fists on the bottom level of Battlefield, he can land on the top platform instantly when the move ends. This makes it much safer to use as a kill option, especially if they shield the first hit. I'm sure other platforms can do this, we should probably make a list.
  
• Rosalina's aerials cannot space out Dark Fists. If Ganon successfully armors an edgeguard, Rosalina is doomed. The above point likely applies to most other aerials.

• Dark fists has very high base knockback. This means that if you land it on a platform of almost any kind, you can get kills below 50%!

 

[jahkzheng]

More Dark Fists. Fun for the whole family!

• If Ganon uses Dark Fists on the bottom level of Battlefield, he can land on the top platform instantly when the move ends. This makes it much safer to use as a kill option, especially if they shield the first hit. I'm sure other platforms can do this, we should probably make a list.
  
• Rosalina's aerials cannot space out Dark Fists. If Ganon successfully armors an edgeguard, Rosalina is doomed. The above point likely applies to most other aerials.

• Dark fists has very high base knockback. This means that if you land it on a platform of almost any kind, you can get kills below 50%!

Ganon gets a huge upgrade customs-wise when it comes to dealing with Rosalina. Flame Chain is one of the best moves for dealing with Luma. Dark Fists benefits from huge knockback and super armor start up that can eat gimp attempts and can kill Rosa very early with a good read. Wizard's Drop Kick further increases Ganon's ability to recover ungimped, keeps him from being juggled as easily with it's horizontal movement, and can leap frog Luma.

One might say this is his single most improved matchup after customs....

Thing is, I've heard that Rosa has some really great customs herself. I've heard claims that with customs she's the best character in the game. Of course, this is early specualtion, but it's clear people are in love with her customs. I haven't really even touched them though, much less tested them. Any one here know what's so great about her customs? One thing I think I remember is that one of her side B customs is like Falco's laser projectiles and I feel like I've heard Luma Warp is really good too. Just vague info at best and I could be mistaken. Also, I don't feel like Rosa's customs were touched on much in the matchup thread.

Basically, I know the matchup gets a lot better for Ganon... but how much better really when Rosa's customs are considered?

 

[Blobface]

Now before I start, I haven't ever fought Custom Rosa, so I'm running on pure, unfiltered theorycraft. Keep that in mind.

To my understanding, Rosa's customs are good because they augment her offense. Shooting star bit is an excellent mixup tool and Luma Warp allows her to put Luma in different places very quickly, giving her even more mixup options. They're good because, like Ganon, they remedy her weaknesses, which are rushdown characters that can get through Luma quickly and easily.

However, none of these customs augment her defense or her gimping, which is what Ganon hates about Rosa. Luma Warp's effectiveness is inversely proportional to how good the character is at getting past Luma in the first place. Shooting star bit might actually be easier for Ganon to get past since he can actually powershield it, which he can't do with normal Star Bit. Overall, Rosa gains a lot from customs since they help her in bad matchups, but she doesn't gain much against a character she did well against to begin with. Ganon's customs however, apply in this matchup more than any other.

With that said, you likely will have to play a different matchup. Rosa will have considerably better offense to deal with. You may actually need to be more defensive than you would be against normal Rosa.

Normal Ganon vs Rosa is probably as bad as 3:7

Custom Ganon vs Rosa might be as good as 45:55, 4:6 at worst.

 

[jahkzheng]

Now before I start, I haven't ever fought Custom Rosa, so I'm running on pure, unfiltered theorycraft. Keep that in mind.

To my understanding, Rosa's customs are good because they augment her offense. Shooting star bit is an excellent mixup tool and Luma Warp allows her to put Luma in different places very quickly, giving her even more mixup options. They're good because, like Ganon, they remedy her weaknesses, which are rushdown characters that can get through Luma quickly and easily.

However, none of these customs augment her defense or her gimping, which is what Ganon hates about Rosa. Luma Warp's effectiveness is inversely proportional to how good the character is at getting past Luma in the first place. Shooting star bit might actually be easier for Ganon to get past since he can actually powershield it, which he can't do with normal Star Bit. Overall, Rosa gains a lot from customs since they help her in bad matchups, but she doesn't gain much against a character she did well against to begin with. Ganon's customs however, apply in this matchup more than any other.

With that said, you likely will have to play a different matchup. Rosa will have considerably better offense to deal with. You may actually need to be more defensive than you would be against normal Rosa.

Normal Ganon vs Rosa is probably as bad as 3:7

Custom Ganon vs Rosa might be as good as 45:55, 4:6 at worst.

That's some good theorycrafting at least. It's about how I've figured it too. I only questioned myself because I'd heard more about Rosa being great lately. It makes sense though that all her custom upgrades are upgrades that help her with matchups she's not great in already. I can see why people claim she's amazing if those customs are enough to give trouble to other top tiers, and that's her main concern anyways. I like the idea that, with customs, Ganon's matchup against Rosa improves to be maybe as good as she's probably hoping to knock other top tiers down to. I hadn't thought that her fast star bit might actually be easier to handle for Ganon either. I imagine the Custom Ganon vs Custom Rosa matchup is about the same as the Custom Ganon vs Default Rosa matchup... 45:55 to 40:60.

 

[Blobface]

Of all the sinister secrets in this book of sinister secrets, this is by far the most sinister secret. I played some matches with a Sheik/ZSS main I know that's about my skill level. During these matches, I was primarily testing potential uses of Dark Fists, and I found a major one.

So we all know how much Ganon hates Safe SH'd Aerials. We all know how much he hates getting juggled. However, Dark Fists is capable of charging right through these pathetically safe assaults. For pretty much every aerial that puts the attacker where Ganon was when he got hit, Dark Fists can directly counter these aerials. Even certain U-air juggles will lose out to Dark Fists if the person jumps upwards during the aerial.

This basically gives Ganon a way to directly challenge the cheesy aerials he hates. This technique can even beat out stupid crap like Sheik's F-air!

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The 18 characters below (Credit to Magus) all get put up onto the platform out of grounded Flame Choke on Battlefield. If they miss the tech (which they likely will due to the different timing), you can actually read their tech option and land Dark Fists on the platform and get an insanely low % kill guaranteed provided you read correctly (training mode confirmed). Even better are the characters it works on, most notably Diddy, Wario, and Pikachu, who are all high/top tiers, and Villager, who's one of our worst matchups otherwise. This can land you kills below 60%!


















Poor Kirby though. As if Ganon didn't destroy him enough.

@ Z1GMA could you add this to the front page of this thread for simplicity? I'm having trouble editing the ATS thread (believe @ Vermanubis is trying to deal with it).

 

[Vermanubis]

@ Z1GMA could you add this to the front page of this thread for simplicity? I'm having trouble editing the ATS thread (believe @ Vermanubis is trying to deal with it).

Yeah, I've been trying to find someone who can help with it. I've tried a few times since, and it still gives me the error. Though, the error it returns says the post wasn't cached, which might be bad news. Not that it'd be the end, but if it's as I suspect, it might take a bit of doing to get it straight.

 

[Radical Larry]

So upon learning more, I've come to conclude more info, yet again:

1) Reverse Warlock Punches after jumping from edges is a hard-read tactic used for often high-risk and high-reward strategies and mindgames. What makes this so useful is the fact that the reversal allows Ganondorf to move freely from start to end of the attack, making him very dangerous at damages of even 0% (with rage, I've KO'd Pit who had no damage whatsoever with this).

2) D-Throw can not only link into WizKick and WizDKick, but it can also link one time into the Dash Attack. In terms of damage output, D-Throw > WizDKick deals around 17% damage, D-Throw > WizKick deals 19% and D-Throw > Dash deals 22% damage. So your first D-Throw link has to be D-Throw > Dash, then perform the D-Throw > D-Spec afterward, as it can only work once on some characters. Once a certain damage has been reached, it's recommended you use D-Throw > F-Air.

3) D-Throw > WizKick also has its uses if Ganon can edge-cancel the attack. This opens up options like U-Air and F-Air, both highly crucial moves that can devastate an unready opponent.

4) U-Smash > U-Smash on heavies and fast-fallers is perfect against them as it deals not only optimal damage from 0%, but also leads into combos that deal massive damages. What do you expect from the most powerful (knockback and damage wise) character in the game?

 

[Z1GMA]

2) D-Throw can not only link into WizKick and WizDKick, but it can also link one time into the Dash Attack. In terms of damage output, D-Throw > WizDKick deals around 17% damage, D-Throw > WizKick deals 19% and D-Throw > Dash deals 22% damage. So your first D-Throw link has to be D-Throw > Dash, then perform the D-Throw > D-Spec afterward, as it can only work once on some characters. Once a certain damage has been reached, it's recommended you use D-Throw > F-Air.

3) D-Throw > WizKick also has its uses if Ganon can edge-cancel the attack. This opens up options like U-Air and F-Air, both highly crucial moves that can devastate an unready opponent.

I mostly agree with this. However, I wouldn't say the first Dthrow-follow-up HAS to be iDA on like 0%.
While it's the best move for garantueeing a follow-up, fast-fallers/heavies are sometimes voulnarable to Dtilt after the Dthow, which gives Ganon more -frames, or even Dsmash for insanity-damage (although Dsmash rarely allows for further chains).
It's also farily easy to watch their DI after the Dthrow at like 0%, which can allow for different follow-ups - iDA if you're hesitating.

It's also pretty cool how Uair is fast enough to combo off of Dthrow at around 30/40% (thx to its speed), while Fair isn't, and how Fair is fast enough to combo off of Dthrow at around 70% (thx to its range), while Uair isn't.

 

[Radical Larry]

From a standpoint, Ganondorf has one of the better D-Throw link games out there, having many different varieties of attacks to hit the opponent. The safest of follow-ups has to be D-Throw > D-Spec, since it allows Ganon to get into the opponent and possibly allow for a chain.

 

[Xinc]

From a standpoint, Ganondorf has one of the better D-Throw link games out there, having many different varieties of attacks to hit the opponent. The safest of follow-ups has to be D-Throw > D-Spec, since it allows Ganon to get into the opponent and possibly allow for a chain.

Also DI and weight dependent, but D-throw to Wizkick is guaranteed at lower percents. After that, up air is usually the way to go. Fair if a bit higher percentage and good DI away.

 

[JmacAttack]

From a standpoint, Ganondorf has one of the better D-Throw link games out there, having many different varieties of attacks to hit the opponent. The safest of follow-ups has to be D-Throw > D-Spec, since it allows Ganon to get into the opponent and possibly allow for a chain.

Ganon's down-throw is surprisingly one of the best combo-starter throws in the game, especially with customs on. D-throw to WDK is guaranteed till mid-high percent, and WDK hits at such an angle that your opponent will hit the ground in front of you right as you're coming out of the endlag. They can tech the fall, but if they miss it or choose their tech option poorly, you get a free tilt. At low percent, down-tilt continues the combo and can set up a nasty aerial finisher, potentially giving you a ~40-50% combo, while F-tilt sets up an edgeguard.

 

[Radical Larry]

Ganon's down-throw is surprisingly one of the best combo-starter throws in the game, especially with customs on. D-throw to WDK is guaranteed till mid-high percent, and WDK hits at such an angle that your opponent will hit the ground in front of you right as you're coming out of the endlag. They can tech the fall, but if they miss it or choose their tech option poorly, you get a free tilt. At low percent, down-tilt continues the combo and can set up a nasty aerial finisher, potentially giving you a ~40-50% combo, while F-tilt sets up an edgeguard.

Let's not forget that some characters can be F-Tilted, but if they are, then they better watch out for a U-Tilt, F-Air or D-Air edge-guard. Also, using F-Tilt is quite deadly against either Ike or Little Mac, as if Ganondorf does F-Tilt > F-Air on them, it'll be impossible for them to recover due to being both too far and too low. Ganondorf on the other hand, has an easy recovery.

 

[Opana]

I just use one of 3 options with Dthrow(Some minor variations but generally):

-Uair

-Dash Attack

-Dair(Amazing punish for air dodges,)

But the reason I came into this thread is to inform you all we completely dominate Ness offstage, to the point where the majority of the time if he's knocked off and has to use Pk Thunder he's dead. I've successfully used everyone of my aerials on a Ness in PKT2, recently perfecting Dairing him as he tries to reach the ledge. We can stage spike him with bair, kill with fair, interrupt with nair, and most importantly repeatedly Uair semi spike them. There is enough time to tell what angle they'll launch at, meaning we just need to either ledge hop or drop, possibly accompanied by a jump to keep swatting him away. Once he's far enough, it's an easy dair.

I've posted this before but I'll post it again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn1JuqI9McQ

Tgis was awhile back, only showing his Uair iirc, but it's to give an idea of what I mean. It's what takes the first stock.