Ganon's Book of Sinister Secrets (Discoveries, Trix & ATs)

[Z1GMA]

In here, we share discoveries, trix & ATs. If you've found something,
or think you've found something, feel free to share.
​

 

[greatbernard]

1. Flame choke
2. D-Tilt or Jab
3. N-Air or F-Air
4. Repeat

 

[Z1GMA]

You can AC Dair and hit short characters if you run off stage, quickly Fast Fall, and Double Jump Dair back on stage.
It's situational, but it can be used as a mix-up if the opponent is standing with his back against the edge and you run through him.
If it hits, you're granted a free aerial at mid/low %'s - if they shield, the AC Dair will allow you to apply further pressure. Big Shield Damage.

 

[Exalted]

You can AC Dair and hit short characters if you run off stage, quickly Fast Fall, and Double Jump Dair back on stage.
It's situational, but it can be used as a mix-up if the opponent is standing with his back against the edge and you run through him.
If hits, you're granted a free aerial at mid/low %'s - if they shield, the AC Dair will allow you to apply further pressure. Big Shield Damage.

Would this work on fall-through platforms like those on Battlefield?

 

[Z1GMA]

Would this work on fall-through platforms like those on Battlefield?

Yeah, it would.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

hmmmm could we get an example of that autocancel dair thing? sounds good

also i'm pretty sure people know about ledgecancel down b right?

 

[Z1GMA]

also i'm pretty sure people know about ledgecancel down b right?

Ya, Wizkick Canceling as been in since Brawl.

 

[Xinc]

I've seen ledgedrop up airs. Haven't seen if any Autocancel windows yet though. I know for a fact all of Ganondorf's aerials, sans fair, has an AC window.

I'll have to try out the AC lagless dair. Do you have a video to showcase?

 

[Opana]

Found another AT(Steps):

1.)Make sure the opponent is right at the ledge
2.)Ledgehop
3.)Either button mash like crazy(how I first found it), or time a wizkick so it only makes the quake.
4.)You'll slide off and be able to act again

Ganondorf new ledge tech

 

[Twoyears]

That is actually in project m too. Does this only work with standard wizkick or can it be done with dropkick?

 

[Xinc]

That is actually in project m too. Does this only work with standard wizkick or can it be done with dropkick?

Probably not dropkick since it brings you too much horizontally to drop back from the ledge.

Found another AT(Steps):

1.)Make sure the opponent is right at the ledge
2.)Ledgehop
3.)Either button mash like crazy(how I first found it), or time a wizkick so it only makes the quake.
4.)You'll slide off and be able to act again
Ganondorf new ledge tech

Seems remarkably difficult. The viability of this move is determined by if the quake must hit your opponent. I mean, generally, very few people actually approach the ledge that way on a recovering opponent.

 

[Opana]

Probably not dropkick since it brings you too much horizontally to drop back from the ledge.



Seems remarkably difficult. The viability of this move is determined by if the quake must hit your opponent. I mean, generally, very few people actually approach the ledge that way on a recovering opponent.

Oh yeah definitely, I just share any new info I find. Doubt dropkick will work, but I'll test it.

 

[Xinc]

Oh yeah definitely, I just share any new info I find. Doubt dropkick will work, but I'll test it.

Please let us know. I only did the "ledgedrop foot retreat" once successfully.

 

[Opana]

Well, it'll be a bit as I have to button mash like a mad man as my timing isn't too great.

It'd look pretty weird if my family saw me assaulting my ds lol.

 

[Xinc]

Well, it'll be a bit as I have to button mash like a mad man as my timing isn't too great.

It'd look pretty weird if my family saw me assaulting my ds lol.

My wrist is already aching. I think I might need to lay off the 3ds for a few days.

 

[Opana]

Awesome news guys, it works with every type of Wizkick.

EDIT: They don't need to hang off the ledge, but they need to be touching it(Or extremely close). You see the blue marking on Omega Battlefields edges? I'd say half that blue square is the max distance this'll work.

If they're not at the right distance, it will still create the quake hit box.

The timing is as soon as Ganondorf puts both feet onstage(A very brief moment after this) during the ledgehop; this is easy to see in training with reduced speed.

EDIT 2:

Also works with Crates, Barrels, and Blast Boxes.

 

[fromundaman]

Awesome news guys, it works with every type of Wizkick.

EDIT: They don't need to hang off the ledge, but they need to be touching it(Or extremely close). You see the blue marking on Omega Battlefields edges? I'd say half that blue square is the max distance this'll work.

If they're not at the right distance, it will still create the quake hit box.

The timing is as soon as Ganondorf puts both feet onstage(A very brief moment after this) during the ledgehop; this is easy to see in training with reduced speed.

EDIT 2:

Also works with Crates, Barrels, and Blast Boxes.

Now since we technically touch the ground, we get renewed invincibility frames right?
(If so, Ganon ledge-stall confirmed?)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Now since we technically touch the ground, we get renewed invincibility frames right?
(If so, Ganon ledge-stall confirmed?)

You are at minimum vulnerable during your actionable frames and then some whenever you leave the ledge in any manner. So it's not really good for stalling, especially if you have to even briefly go on stage.

 

[DakotaBonez]

I noticed a couple different things from Brawl,

Warlock Punch has super armor now!
After Flame Choke you can FTilt (Sparta Kick) opponents.
Ganon's ledge attack no longer knocks opponents behind (off the stage). (EDIT: Ledge attack has a hitbox behind tho)

 

[Opana]

I think the ledge tech might be good for setting a ganoncide, I mean they'd be in range and possibly in the act of a missed attack.

Likely wishful thinking, but it's something.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I noticed a couple different things from Brawl,

Warlock Punch has super armor now!
After Flame Choke you can FTilt (Sparta Kick) opponents.
Ganon's ledge attack no longer knocks opponents behind (off the stage).

The last one still potentially works.

 

[Opana]

The last one still potentially works.

Where do they need to be hit? I'd set up dairs all the time with this and miss it lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Where do they need to be hit? I'd set up dairs all the time with this and miss it lol.

They have to collide with the stage.

 

[Opana]

Thanks a bunch.

 

[Z1GMA]

You can ignore the lag of a rising fullhop Fair if you buffer a B move after. It's pretty effective for edgeguarding and Wicked Window.
Nothing else seem to ignore it, though.

 

[Opana]

Zigma, that's an amazing find.

Rising Dair->ff into Usmash->Rising Fair->Wizkick

Just pulled off this string in training on another dorf, which will probably never work on a human but still awesome

Anyway, idk if this is known but dair and fair have a chance to trip.

 

[Opana]

Possible zero to death, one Ganon to another

Got a video of this just for thoughts.

 

[DakotaBonez]

The last one still potentially works.

Dat backhand was amazing, definitely gonna have fun with that.

Also, the changes to flamechoke are awesome.

Now, if you grab your opponent with Ganon's aerial side-b, you can then press left or right to change the direction you fall. This is great if your opponent is standing on the ledge, you can pull away from the stage and ko them with you, or you can push towards the stage and land safely on the stage.
What sucks tho is the ending lag after an aerial flame choke leaves you open to so many attacks, so its pretty much always better to just suicide ko your opponent.

In Brawl, with suicide moves like Ganon and Bowser's side specials, whichever player hit the other before the side special got the point for the KO, so if your opponent hit you and then you did the suicide special they would win, but in Smash 4 it seems like whoever does the suicide special gets the point for the KO.

 

[Big O]

You can ignore the lag of a rising fullhop Fair if you buffer a B move after. It's pretty effective for edgeguarding and Wicked Window.
Nothing else seem to ignore it, though.

Really nice find! I'm honestly surprised they left his Fair AC window bugged (basically in Brawl it was supposed to AC but they goofed).

I played around with this and found out some more stuff. While not nearly as awesome as your find, this also works on Nair and Dair.

Now I know they normally autocancel from a full hop, but you can actually skip the brief normal landing lag if you buffer a B move. This basically saves you 4-6 frames of lag if you wanted to do a special anyway. Not too useful, but every bit helps.

 

[Opana]

Regarding the ledge tech I found, I'm curious if it'd work with Timber(Tree) placed at the ledge. I can't really test this without another player though.

 

[WwwWario]

Dat backhand was amazing, definitely gonna have fun with that.

Also, the changes to flamechoke are awesome.

Now, if you grab your opponent with Ganon's aerial side-b, you can then press left or right to change the direction you fall. This is great if your opponent is standing on the ledge, you can pull away from the stage and ko them with you, or you can push towards the stage and land safely on the stage.
What sucks tho is the ending lag after an aerial flame choke leaves you open to so many attacks, so its pretty much always better to just suicide ko your opponent.

In Brawl, with suicide moves like Ganon and Bowser's side specials, whichever player hit the other before the side special got the point for the KO, so if your opponent hit you and then you did the suicide special they would win, but in Smash 4 it seems like whoever does the suicide special gets the point for the KO.

What? Can you control the areal Flame Choke? I know in Brawl you could fly a bit forward when grabbing them, but what I've experienced in Smash 4 is that Dorfy completely stops and drags them straight down when he hits mid-air. This means that if an opponent is edgeguarding me, and I hit with the Flame Choke, I haven't experienced that I can drag them into the stage, since I always stops and drag them straight down (SO satisfying though...!)

 

[Opana]

What? Can you control the areal Flame Choke? I know in Brawl you could fly a bit forward when grabbing them, but what I've experienced in Smash 4 is that Dorfy completely stops and drags them straight down when he hits mid-air. This means that if an opponent is edgeguarding me, and I hit with the Flame Choke, I haven't experienced that I can drag them into the stage, since I always stops and drag them straight down (SO satisfying though...!)

Yeah you can move them a little left or right, it may not be too noticeable if you hold forward though. Try holding back

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Really nice find! I'm honestly surprised they left his Fair AC window bugged (basically in Brawl it was supposed to AC but they goofed).

I played around with this and found out some more stuff. While not nearly as awesome as your find, this also works on Nair and Dair.

Now I know they normally autocancel from a full hop, but you can actually skip the brief normal landing lag if you buffer a B move. This basically saves you 4-6 frames of lag if you wanted to do a special anyway. Not too useful, but every bit helps.

Nope, it may seem like it but the fair lag window is not bugged. Ganon's neutral B and forward b special moves have instant start up and due to this they initiate as soon as the full hop fair is complete, right before the lag. The reason you still see the lag animation after the fair finishes from a full hop is what the real bug is - carried over from brawl. This is why Ganon stops just before the ground when you use his down special after the FH fair.

I believe Ganon could possibly be able to wiff a few aerials in the Wii U version with a c stick from the FH fair.

 

[Big O]

Nope, it may seem like it but the fair lag window is not bugged. Ganon's neutral B and forward b special moves have instant start up and due to this they initiate as soon as the full hop fair is complete, right before the lag. The reason you still see the lag animation after the fair finishes from a full hop is what the real bug is - carried over from brawl. This is why Ganon stops just before the ground when you use his down special after the FH fair.

I believe Ganon could possibly be able to wiff a few aerials in the Wii U version with a c stick from the FH fair.

The glitch I was referring to is his Fair being unable to autocancel for the entire move. If you ever looked into the coding for his Fair via PSA, you will see that they intended his Fair to AC after a certain amount of frames, but the window for autocanceling the move never occured because they goofed with the timer (the count starts after the hitbox instead of the start of the move like every other aerial in the game).

I think we are actually on the same page regarding this bug. The fact that the move can never autocancel means that if it ends at the exact frame before you are about to land, you still get the landing lag because the flag to land normally was never set. That's the reason you can't buffer an aerial or double jump, but buffering a special skips it.

The window for autocanceling being bugged and the aerials ending exactly before you land from a full hop is what causes this behavior.

 

[Opana]

Using flame choke when partnered with DH, you can lock characters into a chain of flame choke while DH dairs them into the next one, Not sure if the dair hits before they hit the ground, so it may be techable. This chain can lead into dorf grabbing them while DH potentially finishes them, dorf up specialing them, or a full hop dair depending on the character and if they air dodge fast enough. Chained to 100+ on Bowser, works better when DH's dair is staled but either way 100+ can work on Bowser. Will try and find a way to get a vid, it's pretty interesting to watch.

Credit to Ghasts of GameFAQS for coming up with the idea.

Ganon and Duck Hunt combo

 

[fromundaman]

Nice. That should work with pacman's Dair too. Also could someone check for me if FC into mega man's jab or leaf shield jab locks?

 

[Opana]

Nice. That should work with pacman's Dair too. Also could someone check for me if FC into mega man's jab or leaf shield jab locks?

I'll ask him to test it with me in a bit. It works with team attack, but for the sake of demonstration we left it off.

I know Pikachu's repeated Jab can push them to a standing position, which can be followed with a run away reverse FC. We did that to the ledge, and I believe it can set up a thunderstomp.

 

[Z1GMA]

^ All moves that can Jab Lock can be used after a Flame Choke to create a forced rise-up > re-Flame Choke.
It worked better in Brawl, though, since they couldn't tech the choke.

A buffered Warlock Punch after the Flame Choke is garantueed to hit most characters after their forced rise-up,
But a semi-charged Fsmash is stronger, so it's a better choise.

 

[Opana]

^ All moves that can Jab Lock can be used after a Flame Choke to create a forced rise-up > re-Flame Choke.
It worked better in Brawl, though, since they couldn't tech the choke.

A buffered Warlock Punch after the Flame Choke is garantueed to hit most characters after their forced rise-up,
But a semi-charged Fsmash is stronger, so it's a better choise.

Didn't know any of that, thanks a bunch.

Should've PMed you first, but it's better than making a new topic I guess.

 

[Rannathrtv]

I've been messing with Ganon a lot in training and the only true combo I have found is Flame choke -> short hop -> quickly wizard kick. The timing is strict because they seem to be invulnerable for a couple of frames but can roll out quickly afterwords. It's ~27 damage and leads to f. Air or another choke.

Messing with it online today it is near impossible to hit with any input lag.