Ganon's Book of Sinister Secrets (Discoveries, Trix & ATs)

[JmacAttack]

Just found some Dark Dive tech that helps set up some 50-50s. Get a flame choke, then down-tilt. If they choose to land, choke again, down-tilt. 49%. If they jump, up-B. You either grab them for another 12 damage, or poke them with the uppercut.

If you're up against a heavy like Bowser, you can even do Choke > Dtilt > Choke > Dtilt > Dive for a 61% combo that he can't escape without teching.

 

[Blobface]

So I just killed another Ganondorf off the top of Delfino at 12% with 114% rage on me.

Might be overly optimistic, but I'm beginning to think that Dark Fists might give us a 50:50 Matchup with (current) Diddy. Dark Fists can deal with any of Diddy's aerial monkey business, countering his approaches, charging through his defenses, and countering any non true combos. Plus, having the most powerful vertical killer (I'm fairly sure) in the game against a character that loves vertical kills makes Diddy's usual counterpicks like Delfino and Halberd deadly mistakes.

 

[Z1GMA]

When Link's Gale Boomerang missed you and is comming back from behind:
If possible, get a grab on Link, wait for the Boomerang, and when it's closing in, Dthrow Link.
Thanks to the wind-push you get, you can true combo easy as pie with a rising FH Fair after the Dthrow, especially at higher %s like 100% where it's normaly not possible to combo. It's even possible to true combo with Dair using this method.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

After an aerial gerudo, if you hold shield you can stop your opponent from rolling behind you by keeping them at front and then punish.

This option may not work for all characters, but it's a two move punishing option (roll behind, and get up attack), and if they roll away, you can even flame choke out of shield.

 

[Z1GMA]

After an aerial gerudo, if you hold shield you can stop your opponent from rolling behind you by keeping them at front and then punish.

This option may not work for all characters, but it's a two move punishing option (roll behind, and get up attack), and if they roll away, you can even flame choke out of shield.

So the shield acts like a barrier sort of? That's neat.

 

[JmacAttack]

I know it's possible to block someone from rolling behind you without shielding, too, but I can never get that to work consistently. Seems to happen when I'm charging an F-smash.

 

[Blobface]

I'll test this later.

 

[Blobface]

(Pardon the double post, you can delete the previous post)
So from the characters I tested, I couldn't get the roll block to work, but I did find something very interesting.

Opponents can actually DI Flame Choke.

It's insignificant of course. They won't move out of any guaranteed followups. But it has some scary uses for Ganon. On most characters (especially smaller ones), the DI is incredibly obvious. If someone DI's your Flame Choke inward they're forced to roll inward. Same goes for DI'ing away and rolling away. You can look at where they DI and know where they're going to roll. This could allow Ganon to get missed-tech followups off of Flame Choke without a read.

 

[JmacAttack]

(Pardon the double post, you can delete the previous post)
So from the characters I tested, I couldn't get the roll block to work, but I did find something very interesting.

Opponents can actually DI Flame Choke.

It's insignificant of course. They won't move out of any guaranteed followups. But it has some scary uses for Ganon. On most characters (especially smaller ones), the DI is incredibly obvious. If someone DI's your Flame Choke inward they're forced to roll inward. Same goes for DI'ing away and rolling away. You can look at where they DI and know where they're going to roll. This could allow Ganon to get missed-tech followups off of Flame Choke without a read.

OOOOOOOOOOOOH, the DISCOVERIES in this thread!

I think it's both fortunate and funny how you found something even more useful than what you were testing for in the first place.

 

[Blobface]

OOOOOOOOOOOOH, the DISCOVERIES in this thread!

I think it's both fortunate and funny how you found something even more useful than what you were testing for in the first place.

Edit: Just to clarify, this isn't foolproof. If they DI during the Flame Choke they automatically buffer a roll in that direction, but they can just wait to buffer their roll until they hit the ground, and on taller/bigger characters the DI is much less obvious. But if you do notice the DI, enjoy your free Flame Choke/F-smash

The most ironic part? This is likely a result of Flame Choke being techable. It's now a normal meteor instead of a custom state, allowing it to be DI'd and the DI to be abused.

One day Jmac, the Ganon boards will discover all the Ganon tech there is, unlocking Ganon's true power. On that day we shall cast aside all the pathetic "top tiers" and create a new tier above top tier; G-tier.

Oh what a day that will be.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Edit: Just to clarify, this isn't foolproof. If they DI during the Flame Choke they automatically buffer a roll in that direction, but they can just wait to buffer their roll until they hit the ground, and on taller/bigger characters the DI is much less obvious. But if you do notice the DI, enjoy your free Flame Choke/F-smash

The most ironic part? This is likely a result of Flame Choke being techable. It's now a normal meteor instead of a custom state, allowing it to be DI'd and the DI to be abused.

One day Jmac, the Ganon boards will discover all the Ganon tech there is, unlocking Ganon's true power. On that day we shall cast aside all the pathetic "top tiers" and create a new tier above top tier; G-tier.

Oh what a day that will be.

Nah, this was always the case in Brawl. It actually made SideB combos on Wario a bit obnoxious when you would have to know how to buffer turnaround tilts if he DIed inward.

 

[Blobface]

Nah, this was always the case in Brawl. It actually made SideB combos on Wario a bit obnoxious when you would have to know how to buffer turnaround tilts if he DIed inward.

Hmmm, is buffering different then? As in, if you DI'd in from a Flame Choke, could you then roll to the right? Cause you can't do that in Smash 4.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hmmm, is buffering different then? As in, if you DI'd in from a Flame Choke, could you then roll to the right? Cause you can't do that in Smash 4.

So far, the primary difference between buffering in Brawl and Smash 4 is that the Smash 4 buffering system can only handle one input at a time within the 10 frame buffer window, while in Brawl, absolutely everything that you inputted within the 10 frame buffer window would be used.

Though I'm not sure if that's the only difference. In Brawl, you needed to do soft stick inputs to buffer tilts, and you also could do that to buffer turnarounds (this is especially noticeable if you're trying to buffer something like D-tilt -> turnaround actions). In Smash 4, the game allows you to buffer tilts with full direction inputs, and turnarounds during IASA frames need to be buffered with a single Dash input (and you can't try to get greedy and buffer a tilt along with that simultaneously, unless it's just F-tilt).

So in Brawl, if Wario DIed inwards, he would kinda land close enough to Ganon that D-tilt would whiff past him unless you did a turnaround D-tilt, which required you to do a complicated multi-input buffer to turnaround D-tilt.

 

[Dark Phazon]

What is Wizkick cancel and how do you do it?

 

[Blobface]

What is Wizkick cancel and how do you do it?

A Wizkick cancel is where you wizkick a certain distance from a ledge so the attack ends just as you reach the ledge. It puts you offstage with no lag. @ Vermanubis is the best person for this.

 

[Vermanubis]

Shoutouts to @ Blobface for the shoutouts.

What is Wizkick cancel and how do you do it?

In essence, it's what Blobface said. It has a lot of uses, but it can also be easily punished if you abuse it. Wizkick's a good movement option, so it's good for, say, hitting someone off the stage, then wizkick canceling to the ledge to reach them quicker, or possible surprise them.

I dunno of any other videos with it in there, so I'll just have to post mine:

https://youtu.be/zbYNVsP0VHc?t=6m19s - match ends with a WKC

It's also good for mindgames on BF, where you wizkick under a platform while you're opponent's above you, then throw a BAir off of the cancel. Circumstantial, but highly effective if they don't expect it.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Shoutouts to @ Blobface for the shoutouts.



In essence, it's what Blobface said. It has a lot of uses, but it can also be easily punished if you abuse it. Wizkick's a good movement option, so it's good for, say, hitting someone off the stage, then wizkick canceling to the ledge to reach them quicker, or possible surprise them.

I dunno of any other videos with it in there, so I'll just have to post mine:

https://youtu.be/zbYNVsP0VHc?t=6m19s - match ends with a WKC

It's also good for mindgames on BF, where you wizkick under a platform while you're opponent's above you, then throw a BAir off of the cancel. Circumstantial, but highly effective if they don't expect it.

Thank you .

 

[Gimik]

New Ganon tech?

Ganon can aerial wizards foot at the edge (facing into the stage) and spike during ledge jump, getup(?), and attack(?). I don't have a way to confirm, because it has to start and hit during the time that the opponent is swinging up.

I've only pulled it off twice, and both times against Fox. I don't know if it is fox specific, because I haven't gotten into training to play with it yet.

 

[Dumbfire]

New Ganon tech?

Ganon can aerial wizards foot at the edge (facing into the stage) and spike during ledge jump, getup(?), and attack(?). I don't have a way to confirm, because it has to start and hit during the time that the opponent is swinging up.

I've only pulled it off twice, and both times against Fox. I don't know if it is fox specific, because I haven't gotten into training to play with it yet.

It's that way with lots of spiking attacks, including the Dair of ZSS and Bowser &c., although it's neat Ganon can face into the stage.

 

[Vanillascout]

This might be useful; on mewtwo, jab is the only guaranteed followup on an unteched flame choke.

I can't find the thread, but I remember a while ago someone posted a full list of unteched choke options.

 

[~Radiance~]

Im interested in the DI properties of flame choke you were mentioning. So to clarify, the slight DI we can read that will lead to a buffered input is only when they tech correct? so lets say we read DI inward. It only can be a free follow up if they tech, and if they do not tech then watching their DI doesnt apply, is that correct?

also hey Verm, This is LatiasLulu/Lawrence. Ive converged to the dark side for this game, been going all ganon as of late

 

[Blobface]

Im interested in the DI properties of flame choke you were mentioning. So to clarify, the slight DI we can read that will lead to a buffered input is only when they tech correct? so lets say we read DI inward. It only can be a free follow up if they tech, and if they do not tech then watching their DI doesnt apply, is that correct?

also hey Verm, This is LatiasLulu/Lawrence. Ive converged to the dark side for this game, been going all ganon as of late

As far as I can tell, if they DI the flame choke either way without teching, they buffer a getup in that direction, so with shorter characters, you can look at their DI (if they DI, they don't have to) and know for sure which way they'll roll. It's not meta-changing, but free F-smashes are free F-smashes.

Welcome to the dark side.

Also that sig.

 

[~Radiance~]

that's really good to know, i think its still an important tidbit to notice as alot of people will try to tech roll anyway and be automatically holding a direction, so if its a missed tech then its a free punish it sounds like. def will put some time into this and other sinister mixups.

thanks for the welcome, been a ganon player for a long time and a pika/snake main since brawl but now that snake is gone ganon has been filling that heavy punish void.

and yea, that gif is legendary since i speedrun OoT. It's like the show knew speedruns before they even happend. The hardest read in history.

 

[Vanillascout]

Im interested in the DI properties of flame choke you were mentioning. So to clarify, the slight DI we can read that will lead to a buffered input is only when they tech correct? so lets say we read DI inward. It only can be a free follow up if they tech, and if they do not tech then watching their DI doesnt apply, is that correct?

also hey Verm, This is LatiasLulu/Lawrence. Ive converged to the dark side for this game, been going all ganon as of late

Not sure if you're replying to me, but I was talking about the 100% guaranteed followup. Like, on most chars you can choke and immediately dtilt (or even ftilt on some) without even giving them the chance to roll or attack. About 12 chars (sheik, CF, marth, lucina, ike, pits, palutena, ganon, greninja, some others) don't give any guaranteed followups and can ALWAYS roll or attack before any of your attacks can connect. Olimar can be dsmashed out of choke.

And then there's a small group that can only be guaranteed jabbed right after flame choke. Samus, link, DK, DHD, and mewtwo.

 

[Blobface]

I wanted to test how safe Ganon's U-smash is on block, so I went into training, had a Sheik block an uncharged U-smash and immediately buffer (fully charged) needles. Ganon had ample time to block the needles, and shield and jab were both fast enough to beat Dash attack and Grab respectively. We can reasonably call Ganon's U-smash safe on block.

Bonus: Fully charged U-smash actually doesn't give a frame advantage either way. Both characters can act at the same time.

 

[~Radiance~]

i have always loved ganons usmash. in norcal we have this stupid meme that came around from me playing ganon called "sick frame traps" which is basically spaced usmash to any tilt or flame choke. Its gone so far that we now have a ganon poster for it that i bring to tourneys and somehow me beating a ranked player as ganon has gotten this awful meme notoriety, so im happy about that. Love usmash, wonderful move and super frame safe plus has lovely low cooldown

 

[Shogger]

I really need to incorporate Usmash more into my game. Almost never use it effectively now that I think of it.

 

[Blobface]

I really need to incorporate Usmash more into my game. Almost never use it effectively now that I think of it.

U-smash is one of my favorite moves period. It's hitbox is a big fat disjoint about as big as Ganon himself (his leg doesn't even touch the area the hitbox covers. His leg doesn't even follow the right path), it combos into basically everything at low %'s and kills at mid percents, and it's basically 100% safe on whiff, block, or any defensive option. It covers loads of uses, pressuring platforms, using it for mixups with it's low endlag, and my personal favorite, using it to sabotage shields. Can you just imagine if something silly were done and Ganon's U-smash was frame 10 instead of frame 21?

But the best part is how satisfying it is to land. Nothing is more fun to hit with than a good ol' big metal boot.

 

[Naroghin]

I've been working to apply Usmash a lot more, myself. Such a wonderful option.

 

[FlynnCL]

What are everyone's thoughts about aiming for the 1 frame ledge-snap vulnerability? Ganondorf can drop-zone up-aerial and it seems to work pretty consistently. It's something I use a lot with Jigglypuff (ledge-drop rising nair) but for a fighter like Ganondorf I'd hate to lose stage control, but I'd also love to keep my opponent off the stage and get any percent I can.

 

[~Radiance~]

I have actually never tried that. When people are on the ledge as ganon i typically like to either speedhug and go for the bair trump or just wait on stage and punish their options. Ill have to try that and see what results I get, since as you said yea ganon offstage is a scary feat.

 

[Blobface]

Hey, has anyone tested if that Tipman --> Footstool the ledge tumble --> Wizard's foot spike combo that Gungnir did on Pon (end of second match) is guaranteed? I just messed around with it in training and it seems to be that way. Ledge tumbles could give Ganon even more scary options, especially if you tipman someone after a platform choke*.

*certain characters go up onto Battlefields platforms if they're flame choked under them.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hey, has anyone tested if that Tipman --> Footstool the ledge tumble --> Wizard's foot spike combo that Gungnir did on Pon (end of second match) is guaranteed? I just messed around with it in training and it seems to be that way. Ledge tumbles could give Ganon even more scary options, especially if you tipman someone after a platform choke*.

*certain characters go up onto Battlefields platforms if they're flame choked under them.

Light tumble stun cannot be canceled by anything, not even teching the ground. Gungnir once did a combo on a Bowser where he did tipman U-air on a platform on Battlefield, then another on the ground, leading into F-smash.

VGbootcamp also has some combo videos where they demonstrate a lot of platform tumble abuse.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I have a question. With Ganon's Jab at the palm I occasionally cause my opponent to stumble and trip. Was this always a thing?

 

[Dark Phazon]

I have a question. With Ganon's Jab at the palm I occasionally cause my opponent to stumble and trip. Was this always a thing?

Something i was wondering to
I gave some one a backwards up aiR
The tip of the boot hit someone and made them trip...then i side smashed them.
Seems random....not sure.
Was sexy though

 

[MagiusNecros]

I will do more testing. Maybe Ganon has a tipper mechanic that makes tripping happen.

Edit: Seems like it just causes tripping to happen randomly. Rare occasion.

 

[~Radiance~]

yea im pretty sure that tripping effect is still completley random. you kinda just have to get lucky and hope it trips, but you CAN dthrow and if they dont tech it for some reason you can just run in and ff dair and itll create a forced getup into fsmash for a free 50 percent combo.

 

[Opana]

Point blank dtilt pops them behind you, can lead into some stuff like grab or bair.

Reverse soft nair can lead nicely into a grab as well.

I thought of using uthrow as a read reliant throw and gungnir convinced me to do so. I think if they waste their jump and utilt could potentially cover their landing if they can't make it to a plat or off stage.

I do this too much but I like to create false punish windows out of a ledge hop by using an aerial. It allows you to jump after and counter punish if they go in for many scenarios.

If they jump after fthrow while offstage a wizkick can put them in a very nasty situation.

Ledge hop(Maybe with double jump) into dark dive is pretty cool, It can either get an uppercut kill or grab, and if facing away from the stage after a grab you can follow up with wizkick to chase them or potentially reach the ledge faster although fast falling may be faster.

Ledge hop nair past the ledge is a pretty effective gimp.

Fair can cover a ledge hop and a choke/kick lag cancel can cover ground options.

At low percents when they don't bounce from dair you can full hop dair while traveling offstage and lead into a Ganoncide. I'm still experimenting with this but it seems pretty great.

 

[MezzoMe]

I am back from a quite long absence, and I have found yet another reason for Ganondorf being broken

• Fair
• Bair
• Uair
• Dair
• Up B(customs included)
• Flame Choke
• Wizard Foot(both versions)

What is this?

This is the stuff that hits aerial opponents on frame 16 or before

What happens on frame 16?

It's the earliest frame when an opponent can airdodge something on reaction, on avarege, in fact 30 frames are usually needed for someting unexpected and 12 for something expected, those listed above cannot be air dodged on reaction, but there's more.
Any attacks with hitboxes that come before frame 19 can be used to punish air dodges on reaction, other than the listed above, those who can hit aerial opponents and punish air dodges on reaction are:

• Aerial Wizard's Dropkick
• Aerial Flame Choke

I mean it, whenever your opponent is in the air, you can mix-up the first group of attacks with an aerial Flame Choke for maximum damage, and the best part of it is that the opponents are the ones that need to rely on hard reads, since, as it is already known, Ganondorf's aerials eat the world and half, an opponent in the air needs to rely on air dodges if he wants to go back to the ground.
Out of all of them, I would say that the best is Fair, because of its strenght and range, while being able to punish both options without needing for delay.

Also Fair(and Bair) autocancels in his first 6 frames, wich means that, if done correctly, the opponent can see the initial animation of the Fair, wich is a drastic one, especially because of his arms, this grants Ganondorf a stong mix-up game with the move since the danger of the attack appears real, especially if done while fastfalling.

Also Nair's landing lag is the same as USmash's endlag (18 frames)

 

[Z1GMA]

Just a funny mix-up:
If you hit you opponent's shield with Usmash and buffer a Wizkick right after, it will Sheild Stab, or hit them if they spotdodge.

They must roll, jump or angle their shield to stay safe.
Not great by any means, but it can sometimes take you out of the neutral Vs unsuspecting opponents, and you don't run a very big risk of being shield grabbed.