Ganon's Book of Sinister Secrets (Discoveries, Trix & ATs)

[Z1GMA]

Wizard's Assault, despite its flaws, goes the furthest distance by a considerable margin, almost 3/4's of FD. As a result, it can take you really far offstage for some incredibly deadly edgeguarding. It's useless by itself though, since the only way to set that up is to land an F-tilt right next to the ledge.

Flame Chain however, sets up for this perfectly. It has horizontal knockback and will drag the opponent to the ledge with no trouble at all. On top of that, you can use Flame Chain to block the ledge for a good 60 frames or so by holding down to avoid grabbing it. It might make a Ganondorf an edgeguarding monster, even better than Pikachu. I haven't tested it a lot yet though, so whether it's worth giving up Choke and Wizkick remains to be seen.

I see where you're coming from - Imma give it a try.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I use Wizard Assault on walkoff stages, especially Boxing Ring. It's a good way to surprise someone trying to pressure you near the blastzone and get yourself out of trouble. And on Boxing Ring, bounce on the ropes for fun times.

Oh yeah so, Frame Cancel N-air. I said a bit earlier it can be buffered after a fullhop airdodge by doing a fastfall N-air. At early percents, you can get a grab or a DA pretty easily. Around 20% or so it true combos into D-smash. Around 30% you can do FC N-air -> another aerial for pretty good damage.

We don't get KO confirms from this unless you're lucky enough to do something like FC N-air -> D-air near the ledge, but given it's not too hard to buffer FC N-air and given its reward, I suggest people implement it more.

 

[Naroghin]

...We don't get KO confirms from this unless you're lucky enough to do something like FC N-air -> D-air near the ledge, but given it's not too hard to buffer FC N-air and given its reward, I suggest people implement it more.

Indeed. This is what I've spent most of my tech practice on lately, at least since I saw your initial post about FH AD FFing the Nair to get the frame-cancel. Until then I had kind of written off frame-canceling as unviable, considering my skill level and free time to practice.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Playing around with Ganon I have noticed that Dthrow > Dark Fists is very hard to avoid at low-mid percents.

You Dthrow and then dash forward and prop them up and punch them for 24% dmg. Unless you are Bowser since he doesn't get uppercuted due to weight. Or just being Bowser.

Worth a try.

Lvl 9 Sheiks and Meta Knights couldn't avoid it for the most part.

 

[Z1GMA]

Has anybody tried out delayed Dark Fist OoS? It gets massive horizontal range and can punish well spaced semi-laggy moves.
Press up+B and towards your opponent as soon as your jump squat is finished.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Has anybody tried out delayed Dark Fist OoS? It gets massive horizontal range and can punish well spaced semi-laggy moves.
Press up+B and towards your opponent as soon as your jump squat is finished.

Got a vid clip comparison?

 

[Z1GMA]

Got a vid clip comparison?

Nope. Just go and try it. It becomes a bit slower, but it's still OoS and the range is alot better.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I got bored and did a bunch of personal testing for who Dark Fists works on from a standing position with no DI.

Bowser, Wario and DDD cannot be hit by the combo for strange reasons: they either fall short because of weight, or their animations have them flail around in such a way where their hurtboxes just barely avoid the fist.

Charizard and Roy have similar oddities involving their animations, but holding towards them allows you to catch their tail/leg during the slightly lingering hitbox of the fist.

Captain Falcon flails around like a ninny horizontally, which completely avoids the hitbox, and Mega Man is simply small and heavy.

However, every one of these characters (except Bowser, Wario and DDD) can be comboed just fine if the initial hitbox connects with them while they are laying on the ground.

 

[AblazedApple]

I've done some lab testing with Ganon's customs and I've managed to get a set up almost like a pseudo-combo with Wizard's Dropkick, double-jumping, then finishing off with a D-air and getting an early gimp for most characters at around 30~%. Can anyone confirm this for me?

 

[MagiusNecros]

I've done some lab testing with Ganon's customs and I've managed to get a set up almost like a pseudo-combo with Wizard's Dropkick, double-jumping, then finishing off with a D-air and getting an early gimp for most characters at around 30~%. Can anyone confirm this for me?

Will give a try but I imagine players can drift away or recover low.

Low percents for Dthrow > WDK combos might be worth looking into though.

 

[AblazedApple]

Will give a try but I imagine players can drift away or recover low.

Low percents for Dthrow > WDK combos might be worth looking into though.

Yeah, I've definitely had opponents who will DI up and follow into a double-jump to escape. I'll especially look into your suggestion and even incorporate it. Thanks!

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah, I've definitely had opponents who will DI up and follow into a double-jump to escape. I'll especially look into your suggestion and even incorporate it. Thanks!

Flame Chain can probably work after WDK off the ground if they don't roll or you can just bait a roll and wait.

 

[PRGN]

Not sure if it's new but i'll post it anyway:
You can get back on stage from the ledge and do any move instantly.

Hang on ledge --> Let go --> jump towards stage + Bair --> Any move just before hitting the ground.

If done correctly you will Bair onto stage and cancel the landing lag, allowing you to instantly shield/grab/etc..

 

[MagiusNecros]

Uair has roughly the same iasa as bair so use that instead.

 

[PRGN]

U-air doesn't seem to be interruptible

 

[MagiusNecros]

It does not transition you say. Might require testing.

 

[PRGN]

I made a quick vid of it here:
http://tinypic.com/r/2d8nf5c/8

 

[MagiusNecros]

That's pretty sweet. Do you need any fancy smancy control setups for this trick?

 

[PRGN]

I always have Tapjump=off // Cstick=Attack.
Setting 'cstick=attack' might make it a littlebit easier because it doesn't override
the direction inputs of the left analog stick (like 'cstick=smash' does)

I think it can be done with any control setup. But another thing that makes it easier is that i'm using the Wiiu pro controller, where the cstick is placed right next to the X button, which is perfect for things like this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I saw Oganon do this a really long time ago, and while I'm not really done testing it (there's a looot of characters in this game), I figured this is worth bringing up:

Ledgetrump Ledgehop B-air.

As you might have seen Gungnir do a few times, ledgehop B-air autocancels. Even better is that out of ledge trump, this actually STILL hits a lot of characters. (To my recollection I don't think I got it to work on Mario and Bowser Jr, but I only tested basically the top row of the cast so far).

The obvious advantage of doing a ledge trump like this is that if your opponent doesn't stay on the ledge, you will be in a favorable position to follow up on a ledge roll with DA.

In theory if you can do a Flipman (ledgehop autocancel U-air, which I think has to be frame perfect and might be stage dependent), you might be able to cover people who ledge jump as well, though given the sheer difficulty of that, I wouldn't recommend trying that.

Also ledgehop D-air from what I can tell is viable for edgeguarding people trying to go for the ledge. Ledgehopping it makes it a little bit safer as you won't be offstage in the event you miss.

 

[The Gallows]

I know this should be in the Trix/AT thread but I've not got it all ready for preparation... but I've done some homework and I think I have stumbled upon a very, very nice Ganondorf advanced tech. In fact this one is very interesting for Smash at all.

Gimme a few, and I'll update you guys on what it is. Sorry for the mystery, I still have a lot of testing to do.

This is what I messaged you about earlier Verm.

Edit: Whoops I ended up posting it in here instead of social. Well yeah lads, watch this space then!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay completed testing for Ledgetrump Ledgehop B-air.

I could not get it to work on the following characters:


Most of (but not all) of the above characters could be hit by ledgehop U-air after trump

Everyone else, it definitely works, but the timing is strict on some characters. To my recollection, these ones are more difficult:


To make a long story short, Ledgetrump Ledgehop B-air is really legit most of the time and in situations where you ledge trump, you should also try to execute a ledge hop with it to cover more options.

We need to give this tech a name. But the only silly idea I have is something like Zant's Banishment, in reference to Twilight Princess and fighting Zant in multiple forms (because you're covering multiple options with this tech).

 

[Naroghin]

I thought it was sacrilege not to have "murder" or something of that sort in the name.

Any tips on pulling this off? I was working on this tech all last night and I barely got it a few times. My inputs are ridiculously tight, but maybe that's the problem. Do I need to leave a tiny space of time somewhere? Currently I'm using my extra bumper (Classic Controller Pro) as the jump button so I can input a jump and direction immediately before the aerial input. This helped me at first, but now I can never get it to come out correctly. How are you guys achieving this?

 

[Radical Larry]

So there appears to be a secret hitbox on Ganondorf's Warlock Punch, standing. Normally it does 30% damage, but this hitbox deals 31% damage. While no big deal, I thought I'd wonder how and why it happened like that. Keep in mind, this is from an opponent who (wasn't Shulk with Buster) was at 0% damage. Same thing happened to me with the Reverse Warlock Punch hitting in mid-air; it dealt 42% damage instead of the normal 40%.

And I don't know what the complaining is on landing Ganondorf's Warlock Punch. Sure, some characters can be literally a pain to have it pull it off and other (*cough*Ryu*cough*) are punch bait with laggy attacks, but I don't find it hard or impossible to land these attacks on the ones that normally can't be hit. All I just do is activate it, that's just it. It's not that hard to hit.

Aside from Punch stuff, if you meet an opponent who tends to be on the ledge a lot, and you're both having customs, and the stage happens to be capable of stage-spiking, I recommend using RAR Warlock Thrust. The attack comes out quickly, and if it hits the opponent, it can actually stage spike them. But with its high end lag, there's the risk, so you better have that double jump in store, you'll need it. Now why can't we use the reverse? Because it has even higher end lag and will guarantee you're KO'd.

Also, what do people think of Flame Chain? Is it underrated compared to Wave and Choke? And is it truly good?

 

[Z1GMA]

Okay completed testing for Ledgetrump Ledgehop B-air.

I could not get it to work on the following characters:


Most of (but not all) of the above characters could be hit by ledgehop U-air after trump

Everyone else, it definitely works, but the timing is strict on some characters. To my recollection, these ones are more difficult:


To make a long story short, Ledgetrump Ledgehop B-air is really legit most of the time and in situations where you ledge trump, you should also try to execute a ledge hop with it to cover more options.

We need to give this tech a name. But the only silly idea I have is something like Zant's Banishment, in reference to Twilight Princess and fighting Zant in multiple forms (because you're covering multiple options with this tech).

Terror Trump
Coastal siege
Dark denial
Castle Gate
Welcome to die
Moat
Murder Moat
Chess Fist

 

[A2ZOMG]

Terror Trump
Coastal siege
Dark denial
Castle Gate
Welcome to die
Moat
Murder Moat
Chess Fist

Instead of "Dark Denial", I say Diabolical Denial. Let's go with that.

 

[Z1GMA]

Instead of "Dark Denial", I say Diabolical Denial. Let's go with that.

That's nice.
I do like the simplicity of Moat, tho; 'If Falcon's being too confident around the ledges, go for a Moat', etc

...Diabolical Denial works just fine.

 

[Opana]

@ Naroghin I have yet to test it, I'd help if I could but I'm assuming you grab the instant they grab the edge and buffer a ledge hop.

Tried this on the spot in a friendly, Ganon's fair at the fist hit Rosalina before she snapped to the ledge. I think this may work on other characters for a nice and pretty damn safe option in most scenarios should the timing be mastered.

 

[Radical Larry]

That's nice.
I do like the simplicity of Moat, tho; 'If Falcon's being too confident around the ledges, go for a Moat', etc

...Diabolical Denial works just fine.

Better idea for the name: Los Illuminados
If not that, how about Warlock Denial?

 

[Z1GMA]

Better idea for the name: Los Illuminados
If not that, how about Warlock Denial?

Sheik's edgeguarding should be called Warlock Denial

 

[adom4]

Sheik's edgeguarding should be called Warlock Denial

Sheik's everything is warlock denial ;_;.

 

[Radical Larry]

No, that's Link's Edge-Guarding...

But seriously, it's not that hard to retaliate to Sheik's edge-guarding. Little trick I got from this is by using the vertical DI to your advantage and when Sheik's off the stage enough, you smack her with a D-Spec. Just make sure you still got the double jump.

Otherwise, F-Air, N-Air, D-Air (by some miracle it works), U-Air (Bouncing Fish maybe?) and F-Spec will edge-guard the edge-guarder. If you're desperate, use F-Spec.

 

[Z1GMA]

Well, Sheik can pretty much start edgeguarding you from midstage, via Ledge Carrying.

 

[Radical Larry]

True, but it's not hard to counter Sheik's edge-guarding if she uses F-Air.

But hey, funny but true story, I fought an FG Sheik player that managed to body my Little Mac (despite my efforts), and when I switched to Ganondorf, I won. How? Spamming F-Tilt; this happened and this person got mad. (Then on the last match, I pulled Link and beached him).

Which reminds me, Ganondorf with rushing is something that can be to Ganondorf's advantage if he turns around. F-Tilt has the mysterious hitbox (much like most of Ganondorf's attacks) that sends opponents backward instead of forward. That could be great for rush up mind games and KO confirms.

 

[Z1GMA]

I use Wizard Assault on walkoff stages.

I have no idea why I haven't thought of that. It's genious. It's... evil.
Makes me wonder how well it can work on sages with Recovery Platforms, like Smash Ville.
If someone wants to pressure you while you're camping on that platform, a WA could set up and edgeguard, or possiby kill at higher %s or if they DI towards you.

Man, I which the WiiU Version had the Yoshi Stage that's on 3DS.
Those Randal Platforms would fit perfectly with WA.

 

[adom4]

I have no idea why I haven't thought of that. It's genious. It's... evil.
Makes me wonder how well it can work on sages with Recovery Platforms, like Smash Ville.
If someone wants to pressure you while you're camping on that platform, a WA could set up and edgeguard, or possiby kill at higher %s or if they DI towards you.

Man, I which the WiiU Version had the Yoshi Stage that's on 3DS.
Those Randal Platforms would fit perfectly with WA.

I never thought of that, it's actually a pretty good idea.
That pretty much leaves Dark vault as the only move with absolutely no niche.

 

[Opana]

I could probably find a use with vault, I just never use customs. What exactly does it do, does it actually go higher?

 

[Astrofallz]

Does WA have any other use except for run-off stages? Haven't really been able to find another use for it.

 

[Z1GMA]

Does WA have any other use except for run-off stages? Haven't really been able to find another use for it.

It's a support move in 2on2. I can save ppl like Little mac when he can't recover, and it sets up team combos really well if your partner is behind you - deadly if your teamate is c.Falcon, zelda, ganon, or other character with strong aerials.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I could probably find a use with vault, I just never use customs. What exactly does it do, does it actually go higher?

It goes higher but the horizontal distance is worse because it kills your horizontal momentum. Ironically enough, this makes Dark Vault worse for recovering high.

You can for instance recover from SH wizkick while running Dark Vault, and if you do it perfectly, an understage recovery on FD is possible with WDK and Dark Vault. I can't really think of any specific matchups where the benefits to edgeguarding make a big difference, and the move is really vulnerable to edgeguards and not useful onstage.