Ganon's Book of Sinister Secrets (Discoveries, Trix & ATs)

[Z1GMA]

I think extremely low percents if they're grounded it's a forced get up, although I don't know anyway to set this up without dealing too much percent. Air footstool may be the only way.

Can you try and record it?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

After a Forward-B, you can buffer a dash forward, then quickly jump after a couple frames. This allows you to "combo" into footstool if they tech in place; you footstool them out of their get-up animation and it's completely unavoidable at that point. The only thing you can seem to get out of it is an aerial Down-B, but that's still something strong to discourage teching Forward-B in place

Also, this is pretty relevant to Ganondorf, IMO--

 

[Opana]

Can you try and record it?

Yeah I'll get one up tonight.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Dtilt has a hitbox down below all of Ganon's leg and boot. It can hit people who love hanging out at the ledge. It hits everyone.

What I love most about this is the range and safety you can do it from, also covering a normal get up or if they decide to roll. It can also clash with a few getup attacks.

 

[Opana]

As high as 34% with Bowser and 24% with Jigglypuff soft nair will create the fall down effect from a platform.

Now I'm not positive, but I think soft/semi spike uair pops them up and forcesa get up. Not the same as dair or fair, but they lay ther a sec before rising and I think that is because they'd be able to be popped up the max of three ties in this scenario allowed for other weak attacks. I think they still have a forced non-attacking get up though. This would be incredible as it works at any percent unless slid off a stage, so in theory this would likely always works against say a wall. This is a great set up for many things, like a dash attack kill on jiggs.

Comboing both hits of non-soft nair into a 0% target may put them on the top platform allowing potential aerial/aerudo follow ups.

That's all for now

 

[Opana]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BXA3x3JC-9o

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TgmGHUGH5Ys

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_T2FcnTdTBQ

 

[Vermanubis]

@ TheReflexWonder : You use Ganon now?!

 

[Opana]

Holy s*** O just pulled off dthrow to a forced get up dair on a 0% gor glory Lucario.

I am excited by this new option although it may be di/character dependent.

 

[jahkzheng]

As high as 34% with Bowser and 24% with Jigglypuff soft nair will create the fall down effect from a platform.

Now I'm not positive, but I think soft/semi spike uair pops them up and forcesa get up. Not the same as dair or fair, but they lay ther a sec before rising and I think that is because they'd be able to be popped up the max of three ties in this scenario allowed for other weak attacks. I think they still have a forced non-attacking get up though. This would be incredible as it works at any percent unless slid off a stage, so in theory this would likely always works against say a wall. This is a great set up for many things, like a dash attack kill on jiggs.

Comboing both hits of non-soft nair into a 0% target may put them on the top platform allowing potential aerial/aerudo follow ups.

That's all for now

I've soft/semi spiked with the very end of uair and it always forces the tripped state, at least in my experience.

A string I've worked this into before is dash attack > into tipman trip > into another dash attack or whatever. Think it's pretty much only good on bigger characters at low percent though. It also seems dependent on the opponents DI and probably also hitting with the early part of the dash attack so you're properly past them and spaced for the uair. Faster characters might be able to do an attack before uair tipman reaches them but most wont have something to trade with it in time. I've done this against other Ganons before, a Bowser, as well as a Falcon once. It was mostly by chance the few times I did this as I was just going for the typical dash attack to uair follow up, but due to DI or other things I ended up tipman tripping. Not a real workable strategy probably but a cool observation I've made that's kind of related to what you were talking about. There's probably a better way to set or use the tipman trip though.

My fav string was against another Ganon where I dash attacked > tipman tripped > dash attacked the other way back into him > basic uair > read his airdodge > fsmash. He went from 0% to barely recovering. My fault for not finishing him offstage or at the ledge to make the string seem godly~

 

[Opana]

My most common strings are:

Sh nair1-dtilt-dthrow-uair-jump into ff fair

Dthrow-uair-dthrow-uair

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@ TheReflexWonder : You use Ganon now?!

Yeah, a pretty good bit. Not quite a main as it is, but he gets a lot of play from me.

 

[jahkzheng]

My most common strings are:

Sh nair1-dtilt-dthrow-uair-jump into ff fair

Dthrow-uair-dthrow-uair

A cheapo For Glory "string" I've used on most characters at low percents is dtilt > dtilt > dtilt > wizkick, heh.

Honestly, I don't have much. Some things that feel like strings are just a series of reads and not too repeatable. I should develop some more actually true strings. I like the sound of the ones you mentioned. Might have to see about using them.


More about that silly dtilt string....
If they stop trying to fight inside you and just DI out, you get two dtilts tops at low percents... unless they're really heavy or you started the dtilts with them far inside your space. The DI out is when you follow with wizkick. Dash attack works too but I find I can get wizkick out just as fast and covers those characters with good air mobility getting out of range just before they land. If they keep trying to fight you inside though you can get 4 dtilts in sometimes until they're either high enough to actually set up a dair or other aerial they've been trying to get you with the whole time, or just jump behind you. By four you can practically uair pursue. A character like Jiggs could probably DI in and away from your hitbox after just two dtilts and maybe sneak a rest in I bet however. Still, it's surprising how often you get people letting you just dtilt and dtilt them. It's some cheap easy and safe damage a lot of times. Probably just a bad habit to think I can get away with such things against better opponents though.

 

[Opana]

I use an unhealthy amount of strings lol, I have never seen a more aggressive Ganoh than myself. Here are some more:

The Mac String
Choke-Dtilt-Choke-Dtilt

The Kickstarter
Usmash-Dthrow-Uair

Heavy Hitter
Fh dair-Uair

Tail Gating
Dthrow-Uair-Choke-Fhff Nair1-Dthrow-Rising fh fair-Wizkick cancel the lag to chase

Hold still and let me smack you
Pummel until release-dtilt-choke-dtilt-uair

Lazy Combo

Dtilt-dtilt-choke-dtilt

I have done these all in battle snd some during skilled players

 

[jahkzheng]

I use an unhealthy amount of strings lol, I have never seen a more aggressive Ganoh than myself. Here are some more:

The Mac String
Choke-Dtilt-Choke-Dtilt

The Kickstarter
Usmash-Dthrow-Uair

Heavy Hitter
Fh dair-Uair

Tail Gating
Dthrow-Uair-Choke-Fhff Nair1-Dthrow-Rising fh fair-Wizkick cancel the lag to chase

Hold still and let me smack you
Pummel until release-dtilt-choke-dtilt-uair

Lazy Combo

Dtilt-dtilt-choke-dtilt

I have done these all in battle snd some during skilled players

I'd like to see all these in action. Some are kinda hard to imagine how they work. How does Usmash go into Dthrow for instance? Sounds like a low percent melee combo or something.

 

[Opana]

Mac
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EBGtMWMR8xA

Chain Grab
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmCj8TLr3YQ

Close enough to string1
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcV7JlqmsRM

Kickstarter
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KjJsoobt6Mk

Need vids of orhers still.

 

[jahkzheng]

Sweet. Thanks. Perfect.

I like that grab release off the edge into a dair spike on Mac. That was good.

That upsmash to grab... was that sourspotted or was ROB at 0% or something?

 

[Opana]

0%, it works on most.

Thanks that's one of my favorite kills lol.

 

[AngryDeathBox]

My 2 cents.

-Short hop down b on someone who regrabs a ledge without invincibility, it'll go through the ledge and send them down if you're close enough to the ledge. Very fun and satisfying to do.

-On some characters with predictable recovery I like to troll them by repeatedly using my up b on them off stage as they try to recover. (I think easiest on DK, can be done on ganon/falcon, possibly bowser, not sure who else)

That's... about all I can contribute.

 

[Jiom]

As high as 34% with Bowser and 24% with Jigglypuff soft nair will create the fall down effect from a platform.

Now I'm not positive, but I think soft/semi spike uair pops them up and forcesa get up. Not the same as dair or fair, but they lay ther a sec before rising and I think that is because they'd be able to be popped up the max of three ties in this scenario allowed for other weak attacks. I think they still have a forced non-attacking get up though. This would be incredible as it works at any percent unless slid off a stage, so in theory this would likely always works against say a wall. This is a great set up for many things, like a dash attack kill on jiggs.

Comboing both hits of non-soft nair into a 0% target may put them on the top platform allowing potential aerial/aerudo follow ups.

That's all for now

You can use the 2nd hit of nair (sourspot) to also force a get up, which I find much easier to do on certain characters compared to uair sourspot.

 

[Opana]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OlXn2Zam2XU

Quick double jump in succession is s reat set up for not just dsir, but nair and cair as well.

From nair lag canceled on a 25% Bowser, I believe I landed a guaranteed fsmash, although with proper di expect that to lower.

I landed a fair on a 0% Bowser that slid him off the platform allowing me to drop into another lag canceled fair, then into short hopped fair for 48% in training so lower that a bit.

When they lie on the ground, because they're closer to the ground your hit box reaches them later allowing easier lag cancels, or I believe so anyway. I see this being put to good use as a flae choke follow up assuning I am correct lol.

EDIT: Just landed 4 fairs by full hopping after the second lag canceled a rising fair then hopping into another or just using it depending on where they launch.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So this is evidently the power of perfect pivot F-tilts from Ganon. Courtesy of Gungnir. https://vine.co/v/OglZIVTldOp

 

[Ray_Kalm]

So this is evidently the power of perfect pivot F-tilts from Ganon. Courtesy of Gungnir. https://vine.co/v/OglZIVTldOp

Though Ganon gets the second slowest distance (2.5 squares on the Sonic the Hedgehog stage), this alone makes FTilt a really good move.

Reverse pivoting itself is amazing with punishing rolls, its safety and just resetting Ganon's spacing and putting fear into the opponent's next moves (I've gotten many gerudos > kill by just staying in place and reverse ftilting infront of a shielding opponent).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Though Ganon gets the second slowest distance (2.5 squares on the Sonic the Hedgehog stage), this alone makes FTilt a really good move.

Reverse pivoting itself is amazing with punishing rolls, its safety and just resetting Ganon's spacing and putting fear into the opponent's next moves (I've gotten many gerudos > kill by just staying in place and reverse ftilting infront of a shielding opponent).

But the thing Gungnir is doing is a lot more difficult. He's actually doing the perfect dash pivot that leaves you standing and then doing a F-tilt with forward momentum. That's really crazy.

 

[Opana]

Would that be possible with non crouching dtilt?

 

[jahkzheng]

But the thing Gungnir is doing is a lot more difficult. He's actually doing the perfect dash pivot that leaves you standing and then doing a F-tilt with forward momentum. That's really crazy.

What exactly is "perfect dash pivot" and how is it different than perfect pivot? He must have c-stick set to tilts?

 

[A2ZOMG]

What exactly is "perfect dash pivot" and how is it different than perfect pivot? He must have c-stick set to tilts?

Sorry for confusion. I just meant he was doing a perfect pivot and using it to do moves with forward momentum. I wasn't completely sure what Ray_Kalm was getting at given it appeared he was talking about something different.

 

[jahkzheng]

Sorry for confusion. I just meant he was doing a perfect pivot and using it to do moves with forward momentum. I wasn't completely sure what Ray_Kalm was getting at given it appeared he was talking about something different.

I tried it with c-stick set to tilts. It's basically a perfect pivot with ftilt in the opposite direction of the last input of the perfect pivot.

I never learned perfect pivots because pretty much 70% of the time I try, my second input is a dash instead of just a turn. As a result, most of the time I try to do this tech Gungnir did, I dash attack in the opposite direction.

Basically, a proper perfect pivot is just a dash very quickly interrupted by a turn around. But initiating a turn around input very quickly is easy to screw up since the quick input required can accidentally become a smash and start a dash animation in the other direction. What you get instead of a sliding back turn around is a dash in place.

Hitting the c-stick in the opposite direction of where you're facing moments after the perfect pivot gives you slight forward momentum with your f-tilt. It's mostly movement that happens before the move and not during though, but still allows you to close in with ftilt. If you screw up the perfect pivot with a dash in place then your c-stick input is immediately read as a dash attack in the direction you're last facing.


EDIT:

...but then I just held forward and pressed A roughly every second and got the same thing much easier. Just timing the ftilts to interrupt the walking animation right as it starts. You shouldn't actually see a step made and instead you just see Ganon's back foot slide. And now that I looks again Gungnir's vine, I'm almost thinking this is all he did. You can see one of his ftilts stays put, and that's a lot harder to do by accident if you're doing perfect pivots and a lot easier to do by accident if you're just holding forward and timing your A inputs. Also, I know the video quality isn't great, but if he was doing perfect pivots I think you'd see at least a frame of him facing the other direction.

Guys, I think we just got fooled into thinking we saw an advanced tech because Gungnir, lol~

EDIT 2:

...but then after doing some more perfect pivot to ftilts, I can see that this option slides you just a bit further than then holding forward and timing your A inputs. Also, if your c-stick tilt input is fast enough, you actually interrupt the turn around so it can appear that you're not pivoting at all.

So I guess I'm still fooled. Maybe he's perfect pivot ftilting after all. Otherwise, why would he share it. Surprisingly, the holding forward option is 100x easier and almost as good though, so there's a cheap man's version if this tech is too much for you. I know I can only manage it consistently in half speed, and even then I screw up. Best I could manage in real time was two of these in a row.

 

[Jiom]

If you are doing perfect pivot's right, which he most certainly is in the video, you get a lot more distance and also faster then if you would just walk and f tilt.

Although not particularly a long slide distance I much rather prefer retreating jabs from perfect pivot, it helps stuff sheik's SH fair approach more often than f tilt in my experience.

Also I'm pretty sure you need c stick set to attack to be able to jab out of perfect pivot and it definitely helps f tilt's come out in the direction you want them too.

 

[jahkzheng]

I never got more than two of these perfect pivot ftilts together in a row, so it was hard for me to tell what was faster.

The timing is really tough to get both these things. I have a hard enough time with perfect pivots, but adding this ftilt in there has really inconsistent success for me. A few times I perfect pivoted and inputed my tilt with c-stick and Ganon just stood there. Not sure why. Other times I'd mess up the perfect pivot and dash attack instead. Between these two things, getting the actual full move was rare, much less getting a few in a row.

This isn't the only time this sort of thing has happened. When I play online, sometimes I'll tap c-stick, which I normally have set to smash, and it'll jab. Also, sometimes I get pivot ftilts instead of pivot grabs when I press Z.

 

[Jiom]

Okay the pivot f tilts instead of grab is just a matter of inputting the grab too late, and I think the jab has something to do with buffering mixed with delay from online play.

 

[jahkzheng]

I'm glad I'm not the only one. Both answers makes sense since I feel like my pivot grabs work best if I press the grab button and smash the control stick at the same time. If I smash the control stick and then press Z a fraction later, sometimes I get ftilt instead. The jab thing is still weird, but I like your theory. Would be nice if Z just did grabs and nothing else and c-stick only did what it's set to do like smashes or tilts depending on how you have it set.

 

[JmacAttack]

So this is evidently the power of perfect pivot F-tilts from Ganon. Courtesy of Gungnir. https://vine.co/v/OglZIVTldOp

I love how his comment on the video is "AH-! AH-! AH-! AH-!" Ganon's ftilt grunt is so unintentionally hilarious and I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed.

Also, this mother****ing thing: https://vine.co/v/OPteB95FWQt

 

[JmacAttack]

double post.

 

[jahkzheng]

Update on my exploration of Gungnir's tech!

I was practicing Gungnir's perfect pivot ftilt again. The perfect pivot was still difficult to pull off regularly, so I went Falcon so that I could more easily see what was going on. I got the rhythm and feel for the timing alright but not great. I actually was really liking the pseudo moon walking I was pulling off with poorly timed perfect pivots with Falcon, heh. Anyways, I moved back onto Ganon even though I felt my control was "meh". Almost immediately, I was getting the tech and my c-stick inputs were immediately working too. I started regularly getting my perfect pivot ftilt on the first try but then screwing up on the quick follow up one. Then I started getting two in a row every few tries. Then I started getting three. I thought to myself, "if I can just do four in a row like Gungnir, that would be great". And then I got five! Feels good. Who knows if this will stick with me, but I've done it once so there's a great likelihood that I can re-learn it if I forget the timing. And the more times I recapture the feeling of it, the more likely that it'll stick with me long term. Now, pulling this off online is a whole other thing, but we'll see if I can sneak in a successful perfect pivot attack in an online match sometime in the future soon.

 

[Opana]

So, I love Dark Dive. Used properly I score so many kills with the uppercut, most people expect the grab so it's been pretty easy to land and with his fall speed not too punishable. A new use I've been using though is run off dark dive grab. This allows me to offstage wizkick, and jump into uair right in their general direction. I have scored kills this way too, I love doing this as it's even more unexpected lol. I also use it out of shield and either grab the ledge to rid myself of phantom lag or land with an aerial although with my midair jump that's not usually the case. Last use is buffered out of fh rising fair.

The reason why I use it OoS is it's his fastest special and a great mix up to catch those shielding expected oos nairs. I use it out of fair at times as it has the fastest startup for those trying to punish me, and while only by 2 frames it's a better bet than other specials plus the potential escape it offers.

 

[JmacAttack]

Can we talk some more about how ridiculously good Gungnir is? I wanna learn how to do this footstool-uair jab reset combo: https://vine.co/v/OFPBI1MQwYw

 

[Opana]

Can we talk some more about how ridiculously good Gungnir is? I wanna learn how to do this footstool-uair jab reset combo: https://vine.co/v/OFPBI1MQwYw

That's it, I'm learning how to footstool properly. I feel like I'm missing too much not footstooling.

 

[Opana]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADPBHDMatRI

Usually have to empty jump but it gets the point across, I get them to exhaust a jump for an easy kill.

 

[JmacAttack]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADPBHDMatRI

Usually have to empty jump but it gets the point across, I get them to exhaust a jump for an easy kill.

A use for upthrow? I'll take that.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Can we talk some more about how ridiculously good Gungnir is? I wanna learn how to do this footstool-uair jab reset combo: https://vine.co/v/OFPBI1MQwYw

What's more amusing is how he's able to get dairs at such moments.

The stun on the attack is probably the longest non smash stun in the game, so footstools at such percentages are guaranteed if not teched.

Here's one against Lizardon. https://vine.co/v/OIUU3XFIApH

Similar stuff could be done against Diddy with his banana I believe.