Ganon's Book of Sinister Secrets (Discoveries, Trix & ATs)

[Naroghin]

Yes, "Dair lag cancel" is a better way of describing/calling it, as it doesn't quite allow him to throw out tons of consecutive Dairs. It does allow tons of followups, though, which is the important part.

 

[MapleWooD]

I found something the other day. Not sure if anyone else already posted this but Flame Choke -> DTilt -> FTilt seems to work on larger characters

EDIT: If the opponent is near the ledge (where the CPU is during training) it is possible to Flame Choke -> DTilt -> FTilt -> Dair (while they are trying to recover) to spike them

 

[Opana]

Yes my setup for that dair lag cancel include immediate doube jump into bfs platforms and platform falling into it, which I think you covered. At low percents you can rising fh fair them and platform fall into it, or choke drop them from the platform and with a good read another platform fall dair set up.

 

[Naroghin]

Indeed. I've also gotten (starting left platform) flamechoke shark>dtilt>SH-DJ-Rising Dair to top platform>ftilt>platform fall-DJ-Rising Dair to right platform. But this, of course, was against a tech-happy lvl9 cpu. Most of the followups seem reliant on reads but most of Ganon's game is anyway so I think this and the increased mobility alone is worth integrating this. I've gone from punishing about 25% of platform lands/techs to around 75% with this tactic alone.

 

[_Magus_]

Can I just say how much I love this thread? There's always some new tidbit that I didn't know about on here. I learn something every time I read it. You guys are the best. Seriously. :D

 

[Naroghin]

Can I just say how much I love this thread? There's always some new tidbit that I didn't know about on here. I learn something every time I read it. You guys are the best. Seriously. :D

I couldn't agree more! Shortly after I made the change (from maining Link and seconding Ganon to the opposite) I started reading through this thread and my Ganon has been making strides in improvement. I had no idea that most of these strings/combos/techs existed, and I gotta say I've been having more fun in the lab than I ever have before.

 

[_Magus_]

I couldn't agree more! Shortly after I made the change (from maining Link and seconding Ganon to the opposite) I started reading through this thread and my Ganon has been making strides in improvement. I had no idea that most of these strings/combos/techs existed, and I gotta say I've been having more fun in the lab than I ever have before.

Honestly, it's the little tricks that really make your character improve. A combo string here, a lag cancel there, and suddenly you're miles better than you were. And, having looked at the other character boards, we're one of the only ones who has a thread like this. We have a ton of great info on Ganondorf on all our threads, and I feel like our meta is much better developed already than most of the cast (barring top tiers, obviously). These boards just have so much to offer.

Edit: We're also one of the most well-organized. We have great OPs and mods over here.

 

[Opana]

So I'd just like like to bting the idea of hanging on the ledge to assist edge guarding to light. Just holding onto this lddgd allows us to cover so many options, I'll list some things that are possible:

-Let go into any aerial(Uair being especially useful)

-Ledge Hop into any aerial(Again Uair being preferable)

-Ledge Hop fast fall dair past the ledge.

-Ledge hop air wizkick past the ledge which sets up a dark dive grab often

-Ledge Hop Dark Dive uppercut finish

-Let go Dark Dive left steered right for an uppercut kill.

-Ledge hop aerudo

-Let go then aerudo/cide bu grabbing an onstage opponent.

-Let go rising aerial onto the stage, thanks @ Zargerth

-Ledge hop wizkick ledge cancel, that thing I posted on the front page lol

-Ledge drop ledge trump

Maybe more but I often hang on the ledge and use that as base of operations.

EDIT: Just waana add ledge hop fair to another rising fair is a great mind game.

 

[Zargerth]

-Let go rising aerial onto the stage, thanks @@Zargerth

Speaking of which, I believe the ledge makes a difference here. It's slightly easier to perform this in Duck Hunt stage, because of the shape of the ledge there. I could even pull off landing on stage with Nair pretty consistently, whereas in a stage like Battlefield it's more complicated.

No problem, just glad to be able to contribute something, lol.

 

[Opana]

You can wizkick cancel when using it at the very edge of Yoshi's Island when it's tilted it's farthest, but only using it going up the slant. Going down you can buffer an attack upon landing like utilt or ftilt.

You can cancel it when it's neutral too actually, unsure of other angles

 

[_Magus_]

You can wizkick cancel when using it at the very edge of Yoshi's Island when it's tilted it's farthest, but only using it going up the slant. Going down you can buffer an attack upon landing like utilt or ftilt.

Interesting! I'll have to test this.

 

[Opana]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YGQh_kNN0hc

 

[Naroghin]

Now that's just ridiculous.

 

[_Magus_]

Don't know if this is of much use, but on 3ds' Brinstar, a Ganocide will kill an opponent, but you will keep your stock.

 

[Opana]

That was in brawl iirc.

So weak dash attack to turnaround grab is cool.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Learn the tech rolls of your opponent's character.

After playing a specific player or character for a while, you'll catch on to their teching patterns. Some techs are punishable by another choke, and this could really discomfort the opponent.

Also, when landing, always try to predict what your opponent plans to do. So land with a roll away if you think you'll be punished for an attack. While NAir is often the best landing option bet, UAir comes out a frame faster and can hit where NAir cannot, though this comes with a bit of practice and risk.

Ganon has fast fall speed and a quick second jump. So getting the timings right on avoidance or confrontation will always have hard hitting Ganon face front against his opponent.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Learn the tech rolls of your opponent's character.

After playing a specific player or character for a while, you'll catch on to their teching patterns. Some techs are punishable by another choke, and this could really discomfort the opponent.

In my experience, Zelda's techroll is one of the most obnoxiously fast and long ones in this game. I guess this is how she's kept away from Ganon for all this time.

 

[Opana]

I've been trying to incorporate Dark Dive as a kill off the top. I think it is good in moderation, It is another thing they need to be cautious of too. I feel if used right the reward outweighs the risk due to fall speed.

I know I'm in the minority lol.

 

[Naroghin]

I've been attempting it from an auto-cancelled Dair off of BFs platforms, mostly for teh lulz.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I've been trying to incorporate Dark Dive as a kill off the top. I think it is good in moderation, It is another thing they need to be cautious of too. I feel if used right the reward outweighs the risk due to fall speed.

I know I'm in the minority lol.

Nope. Done it many times. It's unexpected and a faster follow up in the air than all other options. It's also much safer than it looks.

 

[Opana]

Good to hear lol, I know you ate skilled and know what you're doing so I feel better about dedicating time to learning this.

Actually, come to think of it I'd love to mirror you if you're up for it, I want to play all the great dorfs for fun and to take from them.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yeah, sure thing. Do you prefer the Wii U or 3DS?

Dark Dive gets a significant boost from rage in terms of kill power. The move acts like an attack with a jump, which in general are very powerful this game (ZSS' Up B, Samus' Up B).

It's a disappointment that it's not an out of shied move because of the grab.

If custom moves were legal, Dark Fists would be an incredibly powerful and good move. Out of shield and superarmor, with the first hit connecting with the second against most of the cast, also using it to kill off ledge, from flame choke, and surprise off the top.

Too bad that's not Ganon's default lol.

 

[Opana]

Either or, ds is more free but either works.

I figured it seemed more powerful as they were at the top lol, that's good to know.

I used to use vault when I used customs so I could chase farther but after realizing how powerful fists is I can't pass it up lol. If dive grab them instead of hitting I usually wizkick down and dive the ledge. If I have another jump, depending on how far they travel I try jumping into a fast fallen fair. Worked hood on Lucario as he pauses in his recovery.

I wish it was his original, I don't like straying from standard lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dark Vault is almost never worth it. You actually can't go as far offstage horizontally to edgeguard with Vault, because of how it kills your horizontal momentum. And the fact the move has virtually no offensive power makes it less of a threat to edgeguard against.

I can't think of many matchups where Dark Vault's vertical recovery benefits are worthwhile. Maybe Jigglypuff, but that's about it.

 

[Opana]

Was very early on I used it, barely touched fists as I was only focused on distance lol.

 

[Z1GMA]

I've been trying to incorporate Dark Dive as a kill off the top. I think it is good in moderation, It is another thing they need to be cautious of too. I feel if used right the reward outweighs the risk due to fall speed.

I know I'm in the minority lol.

If someone's standing above you on a platform and you SH > DJ AC Dair them, it seems jump > up+b's punch is garantueed on a certain %, and it kills.
I'm not entirely sure if it's a true combo, but it does look like it is.

 

[Naroghin]

I've gotten the same. I've been trying upB w/ and w/o jump as well as with DJ from DJAC Dair at different percentages to see it's viability. I connect most with upB w/o jump but it rarely kills. The percentage of the knockback necessary for that combination seems too low. Almost better just DJ>tipped Uair toward ledge to force them over the edge and maybe setup a gimp.

Edit: Specifically it seems DJ AC Dair>upB works at around 65%, DJ AC Dair>jump>upB works around 70-75%, and DJ AC Dair>jump>DJ>upB works 80-90%. Although DI can put you in a tight spot if you're not on your toes.

 

[Opana]

At a max of 4% Jiggs and 14% Bowser, when daired they don't bounce up which I believe means no teching. If you air foot stool them and fast fall into dair while they're grounded I think they have a forced get up which followed up with a smash is 40%ish, doesn'tneed the dair lag cancel either.

If they have phantom lag and are air grab released onto the stage I think wizkick is guaranteed.

Depending on the character a certain height after x amount of footstools allows a guaranteed rising dair from a footstool. e.g. On the third footstool rising out of it with dair is guaranteed on Bowser, yet for Pika it's the second footstool. If you hit a shield, now this is a theory, do you think the heavy shield stun would allow a guaranteed Flame Choke if not normally then when they're forced into the ledge during the stun? Could be a pretty cool option to harass shielders.

 

[Z1GMA]

At a max of 4% Jiggs and 14% Bowser, when daired they don't bounce up which I believe means no teching. If you air foot stool them and fast fall into dair while they're grounded I think they have a forced get up which followed up with a smash is 40%ish, doesn'tneed the dair lag cancel either.

If they have phantom lag and are air grab released onto the stage I think wizkick is guaranteed.

Depending on the character a certain height after x amount of footstools allows a guaranteed rising dair from a footstool. e.g. On the third footstool rising out of it with dair is guaranteed on Bowser, yet for Pika it's the second footstool. If you hit a shield, now this is a theory, do you think the heavy shield stun would allow a guaranteed Flame Choke if not normally then when they're forced into the ledge during the stun? Could be a pretty cool option to harass shielders.

Forced Rising using Dair? Whut?

 

[Naroghin]

*Thunder sounds in the distance*

 

[_Magus_]

Forced Rising using Dair? Whut?

If this is true, we are throwing @ Opana a party.

 

[_Magus_]

I've been messing with Ganon a lot in training and the only true combo I have found is Flame choke -> short hop -> quickly wizard kick. The timing is strict because they seem to be invulnerable for a couple of frames but can roll out quickly afterwords. It's ~27 damage and leads to f. Air or another choke.

Messing with it online today it is near impossible to hit with any input lag.

Grounded Wizard's Foot is a true combo on a lot of the cast. Check my Ganondorf Grab Guide for info on the characters and the true combo percents. Grounded WF is a lot less laggy.

Here's a :
http://smashboards.com/guides/the-clutches-of-darkness-maximizing-ganondorfs-grab-game-wip.220/

 

[Opana]

Forced Rising using Dair? Whut?

I think extremely low percents if they're grounded it's a forced get up, although I don't know anyway to set this up without dealing too much percent. Air footstool may be the only way.

 

[Slack is Love]

I'm not sure how useful this is against an Ike who knows how to deal with it, but uptilt as he tries to Aether back on stage is interesting.

I think the windbox pulls Ike onto the stage at the apex of the move, making him miss the ledge snap and land on top of the stage instead. This also happens to be under your heel as it comes crashing down on his dome.

 

[Opana]

Seems to work with all aerials minus bair, if only because I can't land it in time. Can't confirm this without another person but trying it with Zelda's soft dair pops them up but they just lay there while after dorf's aerials they get up immediately. Works for some other characters too, like Grinja and Tink's dair, Sonic's Spring, Link's dair, Sheiks soft nair, Zard's sweet nair etc. haven't tested much else.

 

[Sir Dave]

I don't know if this has been said or not yet, but one thing I discovered a while ago and find to be really deadly is an unteched flame choke to custom dark fists. If your opponent does not tech the flame choke, they are left vulnerable to both hits from the dark fists. Against some of the lighter characters, this can kill at 50-60% with no di. It is one of the few things I have found while experimenting with dorf.

 

[Shmeckie]

Dunno if this still works in Smash 4, but this was a favorite of mine in Brawl. Hard to do, but man did it make my day: on Port Town Aero Dive, while the platform is flying over the track, there's a part where the platform flies parallel to the track, so the track below is flying by horizontally. If you Ganoncide here, Ganon will be bounced up like anyone who hits the track, but the opponent will lay on the track, and go flying off into the distance. Situational, sure, but rewarding as hell, and it gets a helluva reaction from the people you're playing with.

 

[Opana]

Good news!

We can use the second hit of nair at early percents to force a platform fall, allowing a dair forced get up into most things. 2Nair does 9% fresh 5% sour, <b>meaning this works on everyone but Jigglypuff.</b>.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

After an unteched Forward-B...

On Bowser, fullhop Down-B covers roll toward, get-up in place, and get-up attack. Charging an F-Smash or a U-Smash covers roll toward and get-up in place.
On Diddy Kong, charging a U-Smash covers roll toward and get-up in place.
On Kirby, fullhop Down-B covers roll toward, get-up in place, and get-up attack.
On Charizard, fullhop Down-B covers roll toward, get-up in place, and get-up attack. Charging an F-Smash or U-Smash covers both roll toward and get-up in place.
On Olimar, charging an F-Smash covers roll toward and get-up in place.
On Sonic, charging a U-Smash covers roll toward and get-up in place.

Charging F-Smash will also catch an Olimar teching Forward-B toward you!

Also, while it may or may not be common knowledge, if Ganondorf's U-Tilt is shielded and it isn't a perfect shield, that shield will be broken, period. This isn't like Bowser Bomb or DK Headbutt where it eats 90% of a shield--It just breaks it. (The exception is hitting only the lowest part of the explosion, which does 18% instead of 28%; this can be seen by putting Ganondorf on a side Battlefield platform and having a tall character shield it from the ground.)

I wonder if this could be used against a Ledge Roll or something similar; that's the only situation I can think of where we would have enough time to reasonably catch someone shielding; U-Tilt has pretty low endlag, so even if the opponent doesn't take the bait, you're probably not in trouble for it.

 

[Opana]

I like using dthrow->utilt at the ledge at early percents as they pretty much have to grab the ledge or get hit/punished for their jump.