Ganon's Book of Sinister Secrets (Discoveries, Trix & ATs)

[Garioshi]

I would like someone who has the ability to lab try to research followups on our choke followups, specifically dair and weak DA. I have no friends, so I could only do one controller at a time. I like getting my usmash off a choke followup, and I'm sure there are other things that you could do with said followups. I have two in here, but I know there are most definitely more.
EDIT: In case it wasn't obvious, I would like the full range of percentages as well.

 

[Theosmeo]

Labbin' around today and found this fun fact: Usmash to Flame Choke is guaranteed at zero on fast fallers

 

[Jyro]

Found a thing, but it doesn't seem very practical.

Dark Dive the first frame from a ledge jump while holding forward. Slightly faster than FC from ledge jump, 5 frames. As you can see, it reaches farther than ledge attack, but probably won't be worth the risk.

 

[Bleak Power]

On the subject of tech chasing after a flame choke, depending on the character, if you read a get-up attack you can dash away, stop, and dash attack to hit with the sourspot.

You can also opt to foxtrot away and do a perfect-pivot DA, but that will get you the strong hit instead, which is less desirable than a bair, dair, or fair, most of the time.

The best thing about dashing away after a flame choke is that, again depending on the character, you can punish both a get-up attack or a roll in with good enough reactions. From there, based on what they do, you can reset with a flame choke, grab, side tilt, sourspot DA, or just stand there and do nothing, gazing at their despair upon realising their mistake in rolling toward their demise(heh). "Why didn't he do anything? Am I still alive just because he wants me to be? Am I not worth anymore of his time? Do I even stand a chance?" they will be thinking.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Gonondorf's Dair can auto cancel from a short hop on the umbra clock tower stage if you SH Dair from the sides of the stage and land closer to the center (into the circle where the clock's arms are). This opens up some interesting options, and I can confirm that Dair can combo into another Dair, Uair, Bair, you name it. Umbra Clock tower is probably a decent counter pick stage for Ganondorf.

 

[Theosmeo]

Gonondorf's Dair can auto cancel from a short hop on the umbra clock tower stage if you SH Dair from the sides of the stage and land closer to the center (into the circle where the clock's arms are). This opens up some interesting options, and I can confirm that Dair can combo into another Dair, Uair, Bair, you name it. Umbra Clock tower is probably a decent counter pick stage for Ganondorf.

Dear Gonondorf,

WE KNOW YOU VAPE

 

[Blobface]

Dear Gonondorf,

WE KNOW YOU VAPE

I know that the Ganon boards have "new tech" introduced by outside members a lot but this is really not necessary Theosmeo.

 

[Theosmeo]

I know that the Ganon boards have "new tech" introduced by outside members a lot but this is really not necessary Theosmeo.

Sorry, mostly like the Gonondorf. Was gunna follow up with kind words but I was too lazy. I've liked his original post to show vague kindness.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Oh wait so you already knew? I should've asked if you guys did to start off lol. Eh, well if it's worth mentioning (though probably not), Roy's Bair autocancels the same exact way. There may be other characters who can autocancel aerials on this stage whereas they otherwise wouldn't be able to, but I haven't found any others just yet.

 

[Theosmeo]

Oh wait so you already knew? I should've asked if you guys did to start off lol. Eh, well if it's worth mentioning (though probably not), Roy's Bair autocancels the same exact way. There may be other characters who can autocancel aerials on this stage whereas they otherwise wouldn't be able to, but I haven't found any others just yet.

I know pika can with Dair as well, also a more practical version of this tech is on lylat because when it tilts this is possible on the entire stage(as well as lylat being more commonly legal)

 

[WwwWario]

I wonder - is Wizard's Foot ledge cancel to Flame Choke guaranteed? I mean, if the opponent has some damage and is standing close to the ledge, and you use WizKick on them, cancel it, and Flame Choke forward and grab them? Kinda feels like it.

 

[Theosmeo]

I wonder - is Wizard's Foot ledge cancel to Flame Choke guaranteed? I mean, if the opponent has some damage and is standing close to the ledge, and you use WizKick on them, cancel it, and Flame Choke forward and grab them? Kinda feels like it.

Well now that it got a damage buff it should put people in more hitstun, and that'll stack with the darkness effect on the kick. I'm pretty sure you'd need to jump first if they DI up though and they'd need to be at a low %

 

[Blobface]

there might be specific scenarios where it's guaranteed (say, if you edgecancel on the last few frames), but I wouldn't gamble losing a stock lead on it. If you're up a stock and at high percent it's good though.

 

[Astrofallz]

I don't know whether someone said it in this thread or another but the jab buff gave us a few new flame choke follow ups. We can now jab both Pits and Sheik. However, we can only jab Sheik if there is NO di after the flame choke. If she holds in or away during the grab Sheik cannot be jabbed.

There are little discrepancies like this among some of the cast that the guide does not show and it is also not updated. I will be posting an updated flame choke missed tech thing here then I will send it to the guy who made the original guide if he updates his guide i will delete the post if a couple months pass and he has not updated it then I will make my own and post it here.

 

[adom4]

I don't know whether someone said it in this thread or another but the jab buff gave us a few new flame choke follow ups. We can now jab both Pits and Sheik. However, we can only jab Sheik if there is NO di after the flame choke. If she holds in or away during the grab Sheik cannot be jabbed.

There are little discrepancies like this among some of the cast that the guide does not show and it is also not updated. I will be posting an updated flame choke missed tech thing here then I will send it to the guy who made the original guide if he updates his guide i will delete the post if a couple months pass and he has not updated it then I will make my own and post it here.

We get a jab follow up on Ike too.

 

[Astrofallz]

----------------------------------------
Flame Choke Follow ups list
----------------------------------------
If you see any type of marking next to a character below refer to the List Key or special mentions at the bottom of the post.

You CAN NOT follow up against these characters:






You can JAB only:


J0

You can D-TILT only:



You can D-TILT and F-TILT these characters:


F+F*
F*F0

You can JAB, D-TILT and F-TILT these characters:




J+J+

you can JAB, D-TILT, F-TILT and D-SMASH:


List key:
J = Jab
F = Ftilt
* = DI in
0 = no DI
+ = DI away
S = (strikethrough) does not hit

------------------------------
Special Mentions
------------------------------
Jab:
CAN ONLY be hit if no DI
CANNOT be hit if DI in
Gunner CAN ONLY be hit if DI away

F-Tilt:
and CANNOT be hit if DI in
CANNOT be hit if no DI
CANNOT be hit if DI away

All fighters CAN be hit with F-Tilt and D-Tilt

 

[Bleak Power]

This may be obvious, but it is something that can't be stressed enough. Ganondorf is a powerful character, but his power does not come for free. Because of his subpar speed and laggy moveset not only you will get much of your damage from punishes, but also you will be open for big punishes as well. For you to play effectively you will have to learn how other characters can be effective against you.

Like I already said, this is pretty basic knowledge, no matter what character you use. However, as Ganondorf, you will be open for punishes even more than other characters. Sometimes it may seem as if all that weight and that gravity aren't doing you any good. That's why it is important that you know how to DI correctly specific moves like ROB's uair, Zamus' Up-B, and odd-angled smashes and throws. It is important for you to seek out and research such information for yourself. Bellow is a video that gives you examples on what to look out for and how to DI said moves correctly. Be aware that some of those might have changed after later patches.

If you have a friend/lackey/servant, go to training or versus modes and study the angle of other character's kill moves. Ask yourself: at what percent range should you watch out for what attacks? Can you react fast enough after being hit by a unexpected smash attack or thrown in a random direction? Hone your reaction time, learn your throw 50/50's. They are all part of the matchup. The matchup assumes that both players are of equal level, skill AND knowledge. Strive to be that perfect player the matchup assumes you are, that's how you can really dominate it.

For a more direct tip: if you are good with foxtrots, dash dancing, and perfect pivots, those can really help you with spacing. You don't want to be dashing all of the time, but smart use will get you places. Also, remember that Ganondorf's foxtrot is relatively short, so you can space better to hit with sourspot DA or just to cover some distance without overcommitting.

Edit: this seems out of place in this thread. I would like for this post to be moved to the Wise Ganon thread. Could any of the mods grant me this request? Thanks in advance.

 

[Theosmeo]

Found a nice way to follow up Dair under a platform at mid/low %: Dair pops them slightly above the platform so footstool quickly, then Dair them again to double jump Aerudo, then double jump, follow their getup, and air wizkick will kill off the top easily

 

[Litany]

I'm still new to the Smash 4 competitive scene (this is my first post...) but from what I've seen, we can use our grounded Wizard's Foot to hit Ike out of his Aether. It's possible for Ike to avoid this by recovering just low enough to barely reach the ledge or recover high, but that sets us up for an easy edgeguard. From what I've seen, the Ike matchup is pretty bad, so hopefully this is helpful info.

 

[djk7877]

Hi everyone,
For those who are interested, I found a glitch last Sunday during a tournament.
Ganondorf is OP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciqQ975DnEs&nohtml5=False

 

[Alter Requiem]

Hey guys, check this out

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-ledge-option-for-ganondorf.434756/

 

[Opana]

If we dair someone at a percentage where they don't get meteored off the ground, we can actually push them off a ledge into an untechable fall. On battlefield's low plat we can short hop off, pushing them into the untechable fall in the process, and lock them with uair. On astage like fd we can probably push them off into a dair, or force them to grab a ledge and trump them.

On the top platform I know I mentioned using dair out of uthrow at low percents, well nair two seems more efficient at locking(or forcing untechable falls) than dair and uair on heavies.

I also messed with trumps, characters that pop too high into the airto bair I believe we can get a guaranteed dark dive or uair. I think most that we can bair e can also dair, had ahard time effectively testing but I'm pretty sure a character with a low 100 trump height value can be daired, and probably the majority of them under that value. Btw if we miss the dark dive we can still geab the edge, right after you use it hild back so you drift back as soon as possible if you miss. Lastly we might be able to ganoncide samus out of a trump, if so though it'd probably need to be frame perfect.

Thanks to gleed for the trump ideas, he linked me a gif of falcon getting daired out of a trump. So our options are bair, uair, dark dive, and dair.

Thanks again to gleed for linking me this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FgMeQGtCFR0Ae6MdNxCO_DFMpG8vqi_dlEdm69VqmwU/htmlview

 

[PlayNuff]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1BU8fDpmvY
A bit late on the execution but it seems to be a true combo.

 

[Theosmeo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1BU8fDpmvY
A bit late on the execution but it seems to be a true combo.

Interesting, I know Usmash hits some people hanging on the ledge...

 

[WwwWario]

This has most likely been said before, maybe several times, but his Jab is amazing after the speed buff he got a few patches ago. At low %, using Jab near the edge makes the enems slide and fall off the edge. This has led to many spike follow ups for me. This is especially useful against characters that you can Jab after Flame Choke. Just today I met a Zard online, I chokced him near the ledge at 0%, jabbed him, he sled off the ledge, and I spiked him.

His jab is scary as heck.

 

[1FC0]

Ganondorfs Fair cooldown lag can be cancelled into any of his specials neat huh.

 

[MGK]

Found this out a couple of days ago and wanted to share it. If your opponent is on a platform, aerial flame choke sometimes fails and the opponent goes through the platform. I did some tests and it happens during the animation when the opponent holds down to go through the platform. This is a little sad to find out, as we lose a follow up. I didn't test if we have any follow ups as it doesn't happen often enough to look much further into it.

Good thing though is that it works on all platforms, so If your opponent does this on smashville's platform when it's off stage. they will most likely die and your safe. Special kind of Ganoncide I guess.

Happen to me during this match: https://youtu.be/Lfa0BkHiMjo?t=31

Best to watch it at 1/4 speed. Hope this examples why aerial flame choke fails.

 

[Naroghin]

Found this out a couple of days ago and wanted to share it. If your opponent is on a platform, aerial flame choke sometimes fails and the opponent goes through the platform. I did some tests and it happens during the animation when the opponent holds down to go through the platform. This is a little sad to find out, as we lose a follow up. I didn't test if we have any follow ups as it doesn't happen often enough to look much further into it.

Good thing though is that it works on all platforms, so If your opponent does this on smashville's platform when it's off stage. they will most likely die and your safe. Special kind of Ganoncide I guess.

Happen to me during this match: https://youtu.be/Lfa0BkHiMjo?t=31

Best to watch it at 1/4 speed. Hope this examples why aerial flame choke fails.

Depending on what they do you might be able to get some interesting tech chases.

 

[Swoops]

If we dair someone at a percentage where they don't get meteored off the ground, we can actually push them off a ledge into an untechable fall. On battlefield's low plat we can short hop off, pushing them into the untechable fall in the process, and lock them with uair. On astage like fd we can probably push them off into a dair, or force them to grab a ledge and trump them.

On the top platform I know I mentioned using dair out of uthrow at low percents, well nair two seems more efficient at locking(or forcing untechable falls) than dair and uair on heavies.

I also messed with trumps, characters that pop too high into the airto bair I believe we can get a guaranteed dark dive or uair. I think most that we can bair e can also dair, had ahard time effectively testing but I'm pretty sure a character with a low 100 trump height value can be daired, and probably the majority of them under that value. Btw if we miss the dark dive we can still geab the edge, right after you use it hild back so you drift back as soon as possible if you miss. Lastly we might be able to ganoncide samus out of a trump, if so though it'd probably need to be frame perfect.

Thanks to gleed for the trump ideas, he linked me a gif of falcon getting daired out of a trump. So our options are bair, uair, dark dive, and dair.

Thanks again to gleed for linking me this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FgMeQGtCFR0Ae6MdNxCO_DFMpG8vqi_dlEdm69VqmwU/htmlview

This list is very helpful. Trumping is probably one of the most criminally underused things for Ganon.

So we just need a threshold number where we can BAir any characters at that number and below. Anyone have that number yet? I'm hoping UAir works on just about everybody.

Another thing that would be useful in the future is a list of who you can hit with BAir while still ACing it on stage.

 

[mgleed]

This list is very helpful. Trumping is probably one of the most criminally underused things for Ganon.

So we just need a threshold number where we can BAir any characters at that number and below. Anyone have that number yet? I'm hoping UAir works on just about everybody.

Another thing that would be useful in the future is a list of who you can hit with BAir while still ACing it on stage.

It'd definitely be worth finding out the threshold, but I think there'd be specific exceptions depending on the opponent's size. For example, I don't think Ganon gets hit by dair (need to confirm), but DK does get hit (despite having similar trump heights).

@aliigleed @Ganof1217 Yes,sometimes. pic.twitter.com/y7TzPrXU5Z

— ぐんぐにる@ガノン使い (@ganon_gungnir) March 31, 2016

 

[Swoops]

Lol. That's disgusting. Get trumped at like 10% and die.

 

[free33]

hey guys 2 questions. 1. can ganon dthrow fair true combo easier with aid of the wind on dreamland? or does affect both players evenly at all times? 2. is there any progress on the ledge trump dair threshold? Thanks!

 

[Litany]

I believe that the wind is a static modifier, so it affects all characters equally in terms of speed. However, since the wind doesn't cover the entire stage at one time it can theoretically affect the combo (either making it more or less lenient) depending on if only one character is being affected after the throw.

 

[Z1GMA]

hey guys 2 questions. 1. can ganon dthrow fair true combo easier with aid of the wind on dreamland? or does affect both players evenly at all times?

Maybe if you Dthrow ppl on a platform, thus making the wind affect you, but not the opponent (considering the opponent is located above the wind-effect).

It'd definitely be worth finding out the threshold, but I think there'd be specific exceptions depending on the opponent's size. For example, I don't think Ganon gets hit by dair (need to confirm), but DK does get hit (despite having similar trump heights).

@aliigleed @Ganof1217 Yes,sometimes. pic.twitter.com/y7TzPrXU5Z

— ぐんぐにる@ガノン使い (@ganon_gungnir) March 31, 2016

If you haven't already, you should test what characters can be Stomped after a Frame Perfect Trump.
<!> Ganon is the king of 0% Deaths.

 

[TM 023]

I don't know if this is already known, but here. It looks like Ganon's grabbox on Dark Dive can two-frame punish certain recovery moves. Most notably, teleports. You just need to hold down while your grabbox is active.

Example:

 

[Litany]

I don't know if this is already known, but here. It looks like Ganon's grabbox on Dark Dive can two-frame punish certain recovery moves. Most notably, teleports. You just need to hold down while your grabbox is active.

Example:

Yep, it can definitely work. Most of the time you're better off using N-air in terms of edgeguarding though; it lasts just as long and there's no risk of getting rockcrocked (remove rockcrock pls Saku-rye). If you're in a position where you're trying to recover it could be useful, although I'd refrain from using it agains people who can tech reliably. One thing I sometimes do is use is when I have a stock advantage, I use Flame Choke similarly.

 

[free33]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGJecVp2yVc
this looks like it has potential as an awesome combo starter. time to hit the lab.

 

[Z1GMA]

Found a thing, but it doesn't seem very practical.

Dark Dive the first frame from a ledge jump while holding forward. Slightly faster than FC from ledge jump, 5 frames. As you can see, it reaches farther than ledge attack, but probably won't be worth the risk.

It's a nice thing to have in your bag, even though it shouldn't be used much.
One more thing for the opponent to "watch out for" is always nice.

OoS jump > up+b is also a cool punish on stage, in some rare situations. The range is mindbogling.
(insane when done with Dark Fist)

But in the end, you're right. It's risky.

iDA Movement
Did some funny testing with Tonsana on a big, flat, Custom Stage;
Ganon's fastest way of covering ground is not his Dash - it's a tie between his Dash and iDA Spam.
1st: Dash / iDA
3rd: Roll Spam
4th: Wizkick Spam

If you send the opponent flying across the stage with let's say Ftilt, for an edgeguard, you could possibly use iDA Spam the get there just as fast as running, thus looking more menacing and confident (passive mindgames). ()

 

[free33]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kf-AMLmE3w So this is a thing. hella useful . i wonder who else it works on.
here are the characters it works on
Bowser Jr.
Charizard
Donkey Kong
Dr. Mario
Lucas
Mario
Meta Knight
Ness
Olimar
Pikachu
Villager
Wii Fit Trainer
Note that characters move during their ledge hang animation, allowing for this to hit on more characters with specific timing.

 

[Kyogokudo]

Complete chart of which moves can Ganon use to hit ledgehangs:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OQyxhELajk7BaGRdHpwxuATDPmkt5ll4hqo7NpZd42o/edit#gid=0