Ganonic Grimoire (Social) - Commiseration and Hierarchy

[Heartstring]

-2 is still bad, like 60/40 or 65/35 against us

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Thanks, DLA. Some of these I can agree with ... but what's your reasoning on vs Samus? I feel completely hopeless against that character.

And if you guys want I might be able to get some replays of the Diddy vs Ganon MU next weekend. It's really not a terribad match-up at all.

 

[Bloodynite]

i disagree with that falcon MU just as much as i disagree with your opinion about brinstar

 

[Heartstring]

i disagree with that falcon MU just as much as i disagree with your opinion about brinstar

 

[Noobicidal]

But he's right.

 

[Heartstring]

Yeah i know, But i've wanted to use that image for ages

Also, you guys know our old buddy a2zomg? Turns out he's been harassing my posts ever since my 6th ever post

Spoiler

well, for a team mate, the first thing samus needs is a character that can kill. so this rules out a few such as sonic, peach, lucario, another samus (sorta) and to a lesser extent, pit and ZSS.

and then you need a character that can manouver fairly weel to avoid your missile spam, so just about all heavy's are out of the question.

i personally think that marth or falco would be a good team mate, and for low tier i would say ike or mario.

oh, and another thing, NEVER team with a G&W, it may seem like a good idea with bucketing charge shots. but no. it dosent work because with two peopel chasing you, youre not gonig to have time to fill the bucket, and G&W is too easy to kill accidentally with someone like samus

Wow, the logic here is so terrible.

Marth sucks in teams, he doesn't have very much KO power unless he gets a tipper, and he's very prone to getting ***** when pressured in 4 player environments due to his lack of good clearout moves.

Falco is also a burden in teams, since he really can't kill very well, and his base attributes are very mediocre without constant laser camping to back them up, and the chaingrab is infinitely less useful in teams. He doesn't have very impressive mobility to stay safe for the most part. Fox is better than Falco on teams.

G&W overall is much more useful than the other two mentioned since he actually can kill extremely well (team grab -> Up-smash). He can do a lot of dumb stuff like U-air braking (Bucket Braking for teammates), and he's honestly not that hard to work around if he knows how to Up-B or crouch at crucial moments.

Anyhow for low tier teams, I did mention Mario earlier, and it's worth trying to learn the Cape ****, which can kill people at like 30-40% if you do it right.

Wololo

 

[Ussi]

Only the only dumb thing he said is that Marth is terrible in teams rest is actually has some.. merit.

oh wait this ain't the ike social, GP y u post dis here.

 

[Heartstring]

Because we've had more than a few scrapes with stupid things A2 has theorycrafted to high hell on here!
My question is, what brought you here?

 

[Ussi]

Cause i just saw your name in the most recent posts and clicked. You were talking about old posts that I brought up and continued the conversation

also A2 has an undying bias that Ike is bottom tier.

 

[smashkng]

lol geez guys. everyone just chill out for a second here.

this is what I think of Ganon's MUs:

-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:

Mario should be -1 IMO. It ISN'T that easy for me, he feels like a Luigi with good OoS options and good mobility when I play against him. I still see Marth as -3 because he juggles us and gimps us like a toy with his light speed aerials and much better mobility. I also still don't see how Fox is even close to -1. He can force us to approach and lasers and has so fast ground speed to bait and punish almost anything we do. And unlike other very fast characters, he can actually kill at around 110% or something with Usmash.

 

[Heartstring]

Cause i just saw your name in the most recent posts and clicked. You were talking about old posts that I brought up and continued the conversation

also A2 has an undying bias that Ike is bottom tier.

He also believes that ganon has to beat samus by going offstage against her and that ganons dsmash is his best punishing move

and yes, yes i did

 

[DLA]

The ganon player's gotta be smart for Fox to be a -1.... I know you can say that with every char but its especially true against fox. The most important thing for ganon to know in this MU is how to shield properly... This isnt melee where fox can pressure your shield with shine. Shielding is really good against fox because a lot of his attacks are punishable OOS, and the only effective thing he can do to your shield is grab... And while his grab isn't bad, his throws are mostly mediocre so you dont really need to worry about it. So he pretty much has to rely on Usmash or maybe a bair or something to kill you, and these moves are very unsafe on shield or whiff.

For marth: the thing about marth is that his spacing, while effective against ganon, doesn't reliably keep marth from taking damage. Fair is fast and has good range but it doesn't last long, and Ganon has tools such as dash attack and wizkick (both very important in this MU) to get inside marth's spacing. So even if Ganon loses 2/3 of his attempts to get inside marth's spacing, he'll still stay relatively even with Marth overall because his attacks do more damage. And marth is almost just as jugglable as Ganon.

The -2 part comes in when Ganon is offstage, or when he's on the ledge trying to get back on the stage. These are horrible positions for Ganon and good Marth players should absolutely shut ganon down here.


As for mario... His fireballs are kinda bad, powershield them or just beat them with your moves. His aerials can be a bit problematic combined with his aerial mobility but remember his moves have a small range. You can't really compare this to Luigi because he has low mobility... Beating weegee is more of a matter of outspacing his aerials with our greater range, while fighting Mario is more about trying to trade with him. For this reason, our heavier attacks like fsmash and ftilt are more effective here than in most matchups... Because mario really can't afford to trade with these.

Also as usual, try to ruin mario's spacing with dash attack and wizkick... I swear these moves are too damn good.

 

[Noobicidal]

He also believes that ganon has to beat samus by going offstage against her and that ganons dsmash is his best punishing move

Here's a classic thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=284186

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DLA, I disagree with literally everything you said about Fox <_<

 

[DLA]

ooga booga

where the white wimminz @

 

[Bloodynite]

i also can agree with mario being -1 rather than 0

I've had my fair share of matches vs Boss

The MU is definitely plausible but it is more in favor for mario

 

[stingers]

what makes jiggs -1 o.O ive always felt like ganon wins that MU

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Puff is good!

 

[Ussi]

what makes jiggs -1 o.O ive always felt like ganon wins that MU

patient jiggs is a pain

 

[stingers]

why? its just a worse kirby. if you stay patient with uairs they cant approach. falling bair or dair both lose to it. and jiggs from the ground is just...lol. like all they can do is dash grab. its just a matter of not running into their stuff =/

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Yeah puff is free lol

 

[Vermanubis]

Jiggs definitely has the upper hand. I've played Wango before, and he was the first good Puff I ever fought. He knew how to weave in and out of my shield, making NAir the only safe option I had. Puff is free in the same way every other low tier is free: if the person doesn't know what they're doing.

 

[Bloodynite]

while puff doesn't have TOO much of an advantage it's still enough to make the MU -1 for ganon

(i haven't been playing brawl at all lately and been mostly playing umvc3 with GOD DAM NEMESIS)

 

[DLA]

okay addressing a few questions that I missed...

Thanks, DLA. Some of these I can agree with ... but what's your reasoning on vs Samus? I feel completely hopeless against that character.

Samus can be frustrating but that's that's really all she has against Ganon. I really don't have too much advice for this matchup--not from lack of experience (I'm at Sago's place almost once a week), but because it's one of Ganon's most simple matchups. Not easy, but simple. Basically you just need to keep on approaching Samus, deal with her Zair's and projectiles, and find openings in her spacing and punish. Samus has a really hard time killing Ganon, so it gives you plenty of time.

One of the most important things to remember is that Samus does short hops while she spaces. She's very floaty, and rarely touches the ground. Like if you watch, Samus probably spends 80% of her time in the air while she spaces. The thing is, if she's facing you and she short hops, she really has no way to kill you until she gets back to the ground. She can't Bair you because she's facing the wrong way, and she can't Fsmash or Dtilt you because she's in the air. This means that while Samus is spacing against you with short hops + zair/projectiles, you are going to stay pretty safe if you try to approach. The worst you'll get hit with is a Zair or a missile or something, and those do **** damage.

Seriously, that's how I play this matchup. Just keep crashing into Samus like waves against a shore. Eventually the levee will break. I'd imagine it's actually pretty comical watching me vs. Sago just due to the sheer absurdity of the matchup.

Eventually, if you keep trying to approach her, she's going to mistime her jump and you can approach with dash attack and her Zair will go over your head because you're ducking. It happens a lot, really. Once you launch her in the air then you need to string as much damage as possible together, because she'll be in a bad position. Bait air dodges, punish landings etc.


Yeah it's a dumb matchup but it's definitely not worse than -2.

what makes jiggs -1 o.O ive always felt like ganon wins that MU

Two things make Jiggs -1 IMO.

One is that she is probably the second best Ganon edgeguarder in the game (behind MK). Like seriously, I play Jiggly myself and it is ridiculous how easy it is to gimp Ganon.

And second, there's the possibility that you will get the retardedly gay Jigglypuff who air stalls you to time you out. I've never fought a Jigglypuff who does this, but if you think about it, it's easily possible against Ganondorf. So you gotta take it into consideration.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

You realize me, noob, and mink post here, right?



PUFF WRECKS. Why falling Bair when you could just rising Bair.

It's not like Puff doesn't have special moves, not positive, but I'm pretty sure Poun beats Uair. Puff can camp Ganon hard too.
The only thing ganon has on puff is the ability to kill at like -50%

 

[Ussi]

why? its just a worse kirby. if you stay patient with uairs they cant approach. falling bair or dair both lose to it. and jiggs from the ground is just...lol. like all they can do is dash grab. its just a matter of not running into their stuff =/

Kirby, bad aerial acceleration, puff, AMAZING aerial acceleration

 

[Ray_Kalm]

lol geez guys. everyone just chill out for a second here.

this is what I think of Ganon's MUs:

-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:

95:05:
90:10:
80:20:
70:30:
65:45:
60:40:
55:45:
50:50:
55:45:

Here's what I think.

How does this work...

 

[Vermanubis]

Might as well throw my thoughts in there, as well.

-4: MK, Falco, ICs
-3: Oli, Sheik, Yoshi, ZSS, Snake, Marth, G&W
-2: Pit, Wolf, Fox, Pika, Diddy, Samus, Lucario, Wario, Kirby, ROB, Ness, Peach, Sonic
-1: Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Falcon, Ike, Zelda, Lucas, Jiggs, DK, PT

Mario and Link are the closest I'm willing to put at even. Falcon can play keep away too well, and can gimp us 50x easier than us, him, so he's -1 for me.

Also couldn't hurt to put credentials against each character, just for the fun of it. Might not be a bad idea to see who has more experience in what areas.

MK: lol
Falco: Bloodcross, Xzax, Pelca
ICs: DeLux (only in friendlies though)
Oli: Brood, Dabuz
Sheik: Ed, Tutu
Yoshi: Deltacod, Karamity
ZSS: Snakeee
Snake: Razer, Bizkit, Fatal, Mikeray
Marth: Neo, Kadaj, Killock
G&W: Vinnie, Alphicans
Pit: Koolaid
Wolf: Seagull, Ish, JJ Wolf, McPeePants
Fox: Karamity
Pika: K Prime, Anther, PikaPika
Peach: Kyon, Nicole
Diddy: ADHD
Samus: Sago
Lucario: None of note.
Wario: Malcolm, SlikVik, Bassem, Waymas
Kirby: None of note.
ROB: t0mmy, OCEAN, TeeVee, HolyNightmare
Ness: FOW
Sonic: Shado
Mario: Flameleon, Vato
Luigi: Yoshq
Falcon: Ally, Stroumbert, Lordhelmet
Bowser: KingKong, Limit
Ike: San, Ryo
Zelda: Ed
Lucas: Pink Fresh, FAE, Mekos, Ninjalink
Jiggs: Wango
DK: Will, Cable, Ripple, Dr. Grandpa
PT: None of note.

So, my weak areas are pretty evident, but I'm exceptionally confident in my analyses of the ones where I've fought a lot of big names.

 

[Heartstring]

Here's a classic thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=284186

Ah, I've been having a bad day
thanks you from the bottom of my heartblack hole for posting that, i laughed a lot

oh hey look! KJ is in there, aww my buddy

DLA, I disagree with literally everything you said about Fox <_<

Ask's DLA's opinion on something
Vocally disregard it

Man, you mainlanders at times

Jiggs definitely has the upper hand. I've played Wango before, and he was the first good Puff I ever fought. He knew how to weave in and out of my shield, making NAir the only safe option I had. Puff is free in the same way every other low tier is free: if the person doesn't know what they're doing.

QFT
Although i do like playing this matchup. The jiggs i used to play was competent at least. and our ganon vs. jiggs matches were always great fun

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Am I not allowed to disagree with an opinion I asked about? 0_0

Not getting why people have GW as -3 either. What makes it worse than -2?

 

[Heartstring]

NO!

and because everything he has beats everything we have

 

[Vermanubis]

Am I not allowed to disagree with an opinion I asked about? 0_0

Not getting why people have GW as -3 either. What makes it worse than -2?

Do what Dueler X did to me and Vex. G&W can UAir Ganon indefinitely, making any kind of landing he does extraordinarily risky; more so than usual. Just ask DLA and Bloody when they watched me play him (G-P might've been there, too); he UAir'd and BAir'd without tire, and it wasn't incompetence that made them effective, rather, that particular stratagem being inherently effective.

G&W can definitely make it exceptionally difficult for Ganon.

 

[Heartstring]

Well dueler X is a special case, as his own secondary is ganon (not too shabby either) so he's knows the characters really well, something most opponents don't know

 

[Vermanubis]

Well dueler X is a special case, as his own secondary is ganon (not too shabby either) so he's knows the characters really well, something most opponents don't know

Right, but that's good though. That's what's needed in a MU consideration. The fact that he knew Ganon reflected in his playstyle.

 

[Bloodynite]

i thought dueler X used Janon

 

[DLA]

G&W is -3 cuz he's a *****. Nair's ********, Dair is impossible for ganon to punish if done correctly, his smashes punish our landings retardedly well, Fair gimps us retardedly easy because we can't contest it with Uair, and if G&W is ever below us, just forget about it, we should never get down without taking damage if the G&W knows how to bait air dodges properly.

g&w is pretty much the definition of a dumb*** matchup... It's not -4 though because G&W actually has to play the game to beat us. The difference is, he has to play Barney and Friends Adventures, and Ganon has to play Battle Toads.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

G&W is hard. Very hard. If the G&W plays properly, you should tell yourself it's game over. All he really has to do is predict Ganon's movement and BAir gets rid of anything and has almost no lag on land. He kills us and gimps us much faster than vice versa, and it's literally impossible to land a good move on him.

Jiggs and Mario are Ganon's easiest match-ups. Mario is overrated by many of the people here. - He has little to no approach against Ganon other than.. what, a possible DAir? It's easy to play mind games on him, and you can kill him pretty early. Just don't get flagged off stage.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'll get to play Dueler in about two weeks.

 

[DLA]

Kalm how can you think Mario is roughly even but Luigi is 80:20? Luigi is easier than Mario IMO.

 

[Noobicidal]

Mario is overrated by many of the people here. - He has little to no approach against Ganon other than.. what, a possible DAir?

I didn't realize Mario couldn't use fireballs or Nair anymore.

It's easy to play mind games on him, and you can kill him pretty early. Just don't get flagged off stage.

This is a rather ambiguous statement that could potentially apply to any mid-weight character or lighter.

Ganon is amazing assuming you don't get hit or gimped.