Ganondorf....

[Ray_Kalm]

I hope this is allowed.

Why isn't Ganondorf put below Captain Falcon on the tier list? He's clearly the worst character in the game.

I'll tell you why.

- Worst grab range.
- Slowest moves AND the slowest moves overall.
- Worst match-ups (all his match-ups are 40:60 or below, some of which are 90:10 or worse).
- None safe out of shield options.
- No projectiles.
- Every move of his can be punished (unlike Captain Falcon), some even with moves as slow as 30 frames.
- Easily the gimpiest recovery, and the slowest recovery in the game.
- Second slowest character on the ground, and one of the slowest in the air.
- Way to many blind spots, (diagonally right below him, and in front of him).
- Huge target (comboable).
- Very easy to edge-guard, easiest for this matter.
- One of the slowest grab start-up time (8 frames, I think).
- Worst grab game in the game. 2 damage for each pummel, which take about 2 seconds to come out.
- His fastest move is his jab, which comes out at frame 8 and has 26 frames of lag (punishable by almost EVERY smash), it also can't kill if it isn't fresh (and sweet spotted).
- FTilt could almost always be teched out of, and isn't as strong as it seems.
- Worst at KOing his opponents.
- Very bad aerial game.
- No safe approach moves. Ganon can't approach at all.
- Has RCO (recovery lag), of around 16-20 frames. If his recovery wasn't bad enough already.
- All his fastest moves (NAir, Wizkick, Dsmash) can NOT kill, and his slow moves are all either sloppy or laggy.
- Consider his speed, and now consider this; 8 other characters are heavier than him horizontally, all of whom are faster than him (in both the air and ground) and 5 characters (including Captain Falcon) are heavier than him vertically, and also faster than him those 'both' ways.
- Almost every characters EASIEST match-up.

I'm going to start going to tournaments soon, with Ganon, and I'll hate the fact that Ganondorf is considered better than Captain Falcon, and not the worst character in the game.

Ganondorf is still the coolest character in the game.
___________________________________________

http://xat.com/Ganondorf_Brawlers

 

[MBreeto]

I think it's his power. And not to mention he's more of a defensive character, so if you play him right, you shouldn't leave yourself too open after attacks.

 

[FrankPizzi]

I agree with you Kalm.

 

[Johnny Pteran]

Ganonford is pretty awful as a character overall, but thunderstorming really helps his game. If you get hit by one of his attacks, it's gonna hurt.

 

[DerpDaBerp]

Cpt. Falcon's nipples should be higher on the tier list

 

[Pikabunz]

I agree with everything on that list. He's just way too slow in everything to be considered a good character. At least CF has that running speed and jab.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

Hes not that bad and has very dedicated players that constantly advance his metagame (prolly more dedicated than any other character IMO) But as a ganon main you should know that. I think he is also one of the more fun characters to play and his hits are all very scary. He just has to be played much differently than pretty much the rest of the cast.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Hes not that bad and has very dedicated players that constantly advance his metagame (prolly more dedicated than any other character IMO) But as a ganon main you should know that. I think he is also one of the more fun characters to play and his hits are all very scary. He just has to be played much differently than pretty much the rest of the cast.

Yes he is that bad. I know this after using him for so long. He's bad enough to have his own tier, in the tier list. As far from the worst character.

 

[Thee Incubus]

Watch some of Zoro in FL and his Ganon.
He WILL make you a believer. Dair all day baby!

 

[Ochobobo]

I like how we were all hoping he'd be improved with a unique move list for Brawl, then... no.

Maybe next time. . .

 

[ExCeL 52]

His Power.. And his Defensive Game.
Ganondorf also has alot of tricks up his sleeves.
And his upwards aerial is overpowered.

 

[Frown]

He can actually hit his opponents unlike Falcon.

 

[ExCeL 52]

He can actually hit his opponents unlike Falcon.

Not gonna lie, I lol'd

 

[FireKirby7]

I underestimated a Ganon once, it wasn't pretty......

 

[UncleSam]

Kalm your problems can be answered through hacks, just swap Ganon's moveset with Metaknight's and you'll be golden

 

[FireKirby7]

The game will freeze if he trys to recover. D:

 

[PCHU]

I wonder if you've fought a good Ganon lately.....
Fight me sometime, I'm pretty sure my Ganon is decent.

I've seen a few Ganons here and there, but nothing worth mentioning.
A lot of the Ganon players out there have yet to tap his true potential.
You know, you can actually 3-stock someone with Ganon without using super-gay tactics?
Learn Ganon more.
Sure, Falcon is faster, but Ganon has killpower like you wouldn't believe.

If you agree, yay.
If you disagree, whatever.
It's the Internet, people are going to have different views.
All I ask is that you search hard and confirm your thoughts before you shoot me down.

 

[UncleSam]

The game will freeze if he trys to recover. D:

so critical...
well this is for lulz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfsYHI5a5Wo

 

[Frown]

so critical...
well this is for lulz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfsYHI5a5Wo

Just the sight of three Ganondorves (lol plural) teaming up on Lucas made me laugh.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Seeing as how this a Ganondorf-centric topic... *moves*

 

[TP]

I wonder if you've fought a good Ganon lately....

He's one of the very best Ganons here and has done as much for Ganon's metagame as nearly anyone else. Something tells me he knows the character.

However, I will disagree with Kalm on a couple points. Our grab duration in total, from when we grab to when we can shield, is the fastest in the game. So that's something. Our aerial game really isn't that bad thanks to Uair, unless we are against someone who can move quickly enough to reach our blind spot. Uair and Nair are both faster than jab. Ivysaur and maybe Olimar get gimped easier. Ganon's pummel is actaully VERY fast if you use the IASA frames right. I only started doing this a couple days ago. One thing that really helps Ganon is that there are some stages (mainly Pirate Ship and Norfair) that he does really, really well on. I got 2-stocked by a Sonic, then CPed Norfair and 2-stocked him back.

All that said, Ganon is still the worst character in the game.

 

[fromundaman]

Isn't Ganon's grab range actually good with RPG?
Doesn't Ganon also not have a blind spot when he stomps? (Though disjoincted hitboxes **** his ****.)
He also has a MUCH better ledge game than Falcon, and it's a lot easier for him to get kills.


To be fair though, his biggest advantage is the fact that no one seems to know anything about him.

 

[Ochobobo]

so critical...
well this is for lulz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfsYHI5a5Wo

Hahahaha, I like how Player 4 taunts even though he didn't really do anything. lol

 

[Meian]

Worse... hmm...

This is difficult to say for me. I think it can depend on whos playing but I'll still vouch for Ganondorf above Captain Falcon who has a harder time landing moves.

But yes, I love the guy and use him relenetlessly with my main, Ness, but I am aware of his sheer amounts of problems. This forces the player to have to be better overall to have any better chances of winning.

I do agree that the ideas and strategies the Ganondorf community have been coming up with have been impressive and I hope it continues as I continue to lurk the boards. I wish I could contribute as well... tourny coming up at the university so I will try him a bit when not Ness and hope to see good results

 

[PK-ow!]

I hope this is allowed.

Why isn't Ganondorf put below Captain Falcon on the tier list? He's clearly the worst character in the game.

I'll tell you why.

Any point not covered is granted.
To avoid a quote wall, I've colored your bullet points. In purple. Actually Dark Orchid.

- Slowest moves AND the slowest moves overall.

Debatable. What about Bowser? Or Ike? Or when you factor in ending lag, Game and Watch?

- Worst match-ups (all his match-ups are 40:60 or below, some of which are 90:10 or worse).

If this were strictly true, it would be impossible for him to be other than Bottom of Garbage tier.
He's not Bottom of Garbage tier. He has game. And that's at least because his moves are still powerful and some have good hitboxes. Falcon lost his power. Samus has weird hitboxes (and I think Ness' problems can be cached out with this too).
Ganon is non-floaty and hits like a bus full of fat people. That's why he can still win.

- Easily the gimpiest recovery, and the slowest recovery in the game.

No. Ness. Vertical Falco. Diddy Kong. Lucario. Mario.

- Way to many blind spots, (diagonally right below him, and in front of him).

Uair?

- Huge target (comboable).

What combos? What combos actually care about the target's size? And what characters?

[- Very easy to edge-guard, easiest for this matter.

Subsumed under your claim of bad recovery.

- Worst grab game in the game. 2 damage for each pummel, which take about 2 seconds to come out.

Samus can do less with her grabs. Zelda neither. What about Wario? Jigglypuff? ZSS?

- His fastest move is his jab, which comes out at frame 8 and has 26 frames of lag (punishable by almost EVERY smash), it also can't kill if it isn't fresh (and sweet spotted).

That his fastest move can't kill is not something bad about an attack.
We're still hitting other players, aren't we? As long as they have to go slower than that to make a business play, we're not out.

- FTilt could almost always be teched out of, and isn't as strong as it seems.

You mean with down SDI -> tech? I'll see that ftilt does not have Spartan kick power (except as the very inflexible fresh finisher), but it's there.
I don't think people's hopes for Ganon lie with ftilt anyway. The games I watch of Ganon winning? I don't see reliance on ftilt. I can't recall any instance of it, actually.

- Worst at KOing his opponents.

This is way too huge a claim to simply be stated. More than that, this, again, contains the statement that Ganon is garbage of garbage tier, so no one should give you this. A petitio principii.

- Very bad aerial game.

Where were you when Kosk pwnd Superboom's Snake? With dairs, uairs, and in the end, a timed fair?

- No safe approach moves. Ganon can't approach at all.

I believe there are others in the same position who do better (than Ganon seems to).

- All his fastest moves (NAir, Wizkick, Dsmash) can NOT kill, and his slow moves are all either sloppy or laggy.

This is, just to point out, probably where your point can be made. If you can establish a connection between power of fast moves, and the "badness" of 'sloppy' attacks, then you might be able to put together a strong blow here.

- Consider his speed, and now consider this; 8 other characters are heavier than him horizontally, all of whom are faster than him (in both the air and ground) and 5 characters (including Captain Falcon) are heavier than him vertically, and also faster than him those 'both' ways.

Okay, so he doesn't have the most inertia, and he's slow. He still has a lot of inertia, and I never saw it anywhere that to win games, a character must make up for his speed with inertia.
I never saw that at all.

- Almost every characters EASIEST match-up.

According to current knowledge. Underrepresentation, people dismiss him, the current belief he's garbage is a cause of this leading to circularity, blah blah.

I'm going to start going to tournaments soon, with Ganon, and I'll hate the fact that Ganondorf is considered better than Captain Falcon, and not the worst character in the game.

Hoor... ay?

No, well, I am happy you're going to tournaments.

Ganondorf is still the coolest character in the game.

Got that **** right.

 

[Koskinator]

I dont understand your weird obsession of trying to make everyone think that Ganon is the worst. He is really bad, but Falcon is worse overall.

 

[Squirrely]

Both ganon and falcon suck, who cares who's worse.

 

[fromundaman]

- Worst grab game in the game. 2 damage for each pummel, which take about 2 seconds to come out.

Samus can do less with her grabs. Zelda neither. What about Wario? Jigglypuff? ZSS?

Lol, Kirby's does less than 1%.... To be fair though, it's much faster and is used more to refresh moves, but still, damage wise it's worse, since 1 Ganon pummel is like 3 Kirby pummels.

I dont understand your weird obsession of trying to make everyone think that Ganon is the worst. He is really bad, but Falcon is worse overall.

I was wondering that myself...

 

[Swoops]

I dont understand your weird obsession of trying to make everyone think that Ganon is the worst. He is really bad, but Falcon is worse overall.

Because he's being a negative nancy

 

[pure_awesome]

Meh.

Jiggs is worse than both of Ganon and Falcon anyway.

 

[:034:]

- Worst grab range. Wrong, check out this thread. It's bad, but not the worst.
- Slowest moves AND the slowest moves overall.
- Worst match-ups (all his match-ups are 40:60 or below, some of which are 90:10 or worse).
- None safe out of shield options.
- No projectiles.
- Every move of his can be punished (unlike Captain Falcon), some even with moves as slow as 30 frames. SH Uair? Good luck punishing that <_<
- Easily the gimpiest recovery, and the slowest recovery in the game. I gimped Link's recovery by laying down my controller, where you at
- Second slowest character on the ground, and one of the slowest in the air. Once again, bad but not the worst
- Way to many blind spots, (diagonally right below him, and in front of him).
- Huge target (comboable).
- Very easy to edge-guard, easiest for this matter. Link.
- One of the slowest grab start-up time (8 frames, I think). One of the slowest start up times, yes. But a nice trade for the fastest standing grab in the game, one of the fastest dash grabs in the game and one of the fastest PIVOT grabs, which has a deadly increase in range.
- Worst grab game in the game. 2 damage for each pummel, which take about 2 seconds to come out. Wrong again, check out MYTHBUSTA thread. You can actually reach 4 DPS.
- His fastest move is his jab, which comes out at frame 8 and has 26 frames of lag (punishable by almost EVERY smash), it also can't kill if it isn't fresh (and sweet spotted). Who kills with jab anyway? I agree on it being slow though.
- FTilt could almost always be teched out of, and isn't as strong as it seems.
- Worst at KOing his opponents. ..What?
- Very bad aerial game. Uair and dair are amazing, ranking at the best moves in the game, and bair and fair are... satisfactory.
- No safe approach moves. Ganon can't approach at all.
- Has RCO (recovery lag), of around 16-20 frames. If his recovery wasn't bad enough already.
- All his fastest moves (NAir, Wizkick, Dsmash) can NOT kill, and his slow moves are all either sloppy or laggy. Neither Wizkick nor Dsmash are 'fast'. iDA, dtilt and ftilt are all faster and better at killing.
- Consider his speed, and now consider this; 8 other characters are heavier than him horizontally, all of whom are faster than him (in both the air and ground) and 5 characters (including Captain Falcon) are heavier than him vertically, and also faster than him those 'both' ways.
- Almost every characters EASIEST match-up.

Friendly comments in bold, I agree with everything else though. But Ganondorf worse than Falcon...? Impossible.

 

[Hyrus]

Why isn't Ganondorf put below Captain Falcon on the tier list? He's clearly the worst character in the game.

I tend to agree. Even on paper, the character doesn't have a lot going for him. Makes you wanna reach over the pacific ocean and ring someone's neck .

- Easily the gimpiest recovery, and the slowest recovery in the game.

Link's recovery, unlike Ganon's, is momentum based. If Link is flying away from the stage when he upB's toward the stage, he goes straight up (fail). Get Link at a bad angle below the stage, factor in his fall speed, and he's done at a very low percent.

Ganon's recovery is pretty bad, but i'd rather be offstage with Ganon than Link. Ganon can afford to Uair or sometimes stomp off stage and still make it back. Being off stage with Link is like having a heart attack. :^p

- Worst grab range. Wrong, check out this thread. It's bad, but not the worst.

You defend Ganon's grab game numerous times in your reply, and yet the author of the thread you linked explains at the bottom of his post that the overall worst characters for grabbing are Ganon and Ike. :^|

- Second slowest character on the ground, and one of the slowest in the air. Once again, bad but not the worst

Who's slower? Ike's got a lot of range and lasting hitboxes to make up for his speed issues. His jab is pretty fast and essential to his game. I think it's important to realize that speed isn't an isolated issue - lingering hitboxes, range, disjointedness - many factors can redeem slow fighters. But most slow fighters do have a fast, spammable alternative move. Not the Gan-man, though. And who knows how many times I get grabbed at the toe out of a Dtilt.

==
===
==

Here's some stuff Ray Kalm forgot about in his disorganized, messy list:

- No personal-space defense

Most characters have a fast attack that hits around them, like Bowser's upB or Link's usmash. Coupled with slow ground/air speed, Ganon suffers at close range, which only furthers his vulnerability to juggling.

- No multi-hit. (shield pressure)

Multi-hits naturally bait an opponent into dropping their shield early, if mixed up, and almost always have little ending lag. But you could also argue that they're a lasting hitbox (sort of), which have a number of other, more subtle benefits. Wizfoot isn't as convenient of an anti-spotdodge move as, say, Mario's Dair. Especially since dodging happens up close, outside of Wizfoot's comfort zone.

 

[Volkner582]

Ganondorf got where he is because of his big nose.

 

[MyCurse4Life]

It's his overall power and how heavy he is might be some people's advantage like myself his weight keeps him sturdy and in one place

 

[:034:]

You defend Ganon's grab game numerous times in your reply, and yet the author of the thread you linked explains at the bottom of his post that the overall worst characters for grabbing are Ganon and Ike. :^|

Well I disagree with that too, but the thread has the info so why not link to it? >_>

Who's slower? Ike's got a lot of range and lasting hitboxes to make up for his speed issues. His jab is pretty fast and essential to his game. I think it's important to realize that speed isn't an isolated issue - lingering hitboxes, range, disjointedness - many factors can redeem slow fighters. But most slow fighters do have a fast, spammable alternative move. Not the Gan-man, though. And who knows how many times I get grabbed at the toe out of a Dtilt.

Why are you randomly bringing up Ike again, I never mentioned him. My point also still stands, Ganondorf is one of the worst (and I will never he isn't) but not the worst.

Why we are having this discussion is absolutely beyond me anyway.

 

[fromundaman]

Wait Ganon's Uair and Dair rank as some of the best moves in the game?!
I mean, they are awesome, but I wouldn't even put them in the top 10...

 

[Dr. Ike]

Ganon has a cool up b

 

[-Mars-]

Ganon also has a beastly tech chase game, amazing KO power, staying power if you DI right, priority, disjoints, an edgeguard game, amazing strings that do over 50% damage, and a very good poke in his dtilt.

All of that will keep him from ever being as bad as Falcon......he's not that far away from Jiggs and Link either.

 

[Cubone]

He isn't everyones best match up... among the lower tiers he has one of the best against G&W

 

[Z1GMA]

At least we've got an awesome DA : )