Ganon Techs, Skills, Frame Data, and Hitboxes

[Z1GMA]

* Unfortunately, The Aerial Combo works only when ZSS has 0%.

The aerial combo doesn't work at all, SBF.
ZSS (as well as all other characters) has frame advantage over Ganon after his Aerudo.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

The aerial combo doesn't work at all, SBF.
ZSS (as well as all other characters) has frame advantage over Ganon after his Aerudo.

I will make more tests today. Im pretty sure that you're right.

I don't use Aerial Combo too often.

If anything about Aerial Combo is wrong, I will retire from the post.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Leviathan88]

Hey I have a quick question. I saw mentioned infinite jumping...is this really possible with Gannon?

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Hey I have a quick question. I saw mentioned infinite jumping...is this really possible with Gannon?

Hey dude

You should put this in the Q&A Thread next time.

 

[Leviathan88]

so you're not going to answer my question?

 

[Ganonsburg]

Well, one of our advanced techniques, Flight of Ganon, uses the infinite second jump. Except the outcome looks far different. I've never tried just ISJ, but I would assume that it really is possible.

 

[Leviathan88]

thanks gannonsburg, i'll check that out

 

[SuSa]

No offence, but who here would like data similiar to Snake's/Jigglypuffs/Diddy Kongs?

Ganon's only multi-hit that would be annoying is nair.

Big O already has done the stuff I hate to do... which is hitbox duration....

I'd be able to provide trajectories, pictures, base, growth, blockhitlag, blockstun, and hitlag and most of all double check his current data, and incorporate what he has.

I've been thinking who this would be great to do for...and who it'd be simple for and decided on Ganon or DK.

I personally love Ganon more so decided on him. I want this in depth data eventually for all characters and am currently trying to find people willing to put in this extreme large amount of work. (Took 6 hours for a basic character like Snake... who doesn't have many multi-hit moves, and that's not including the time Eternal Yoshi put into finding all the hitbox durations which is probably what takes longest. Same with landing lag and IASA frames on aerials. Most of which is normally already done.

 

[B!squick]

I like all the attention Ganondorf has garnered recently. He should have been made last on the tier list YEARS ago.

 

[:mad:]

I only started using him because Noob did.

Then he became last and it suddenly became more fun.

 

[Noobicidal]

I only started using him because Noob did.

Then he became last and it suddenly became more fun.

If I jumped off a cliff, would you fall with me? <3

Ganon wouldn't be half as entertaining if every fight wasn't a challenge.

Ghost edit: I'd be very interested in your data Susa.

 

[Z1GMA]

Words

Shield Stun would be very helpful, Susa.

Plus, I think it'd be cool to know how many frames of invincibility Ganon has when he grabs a ledge (Should be the same number for all chars), as well as how many frames it takes for him to:
Ledge Drop -> DJ -> Regrab ASAP (Frame perfect)

Also, how many frames you have to wait before you can take action, after grabbing a ledge.

Yeah... Me want Ledge Frame Data.

 

[Big O]

No offence, but who here would like data similiar to Snake's/Jigglypuffs/Diddy Kongs?

Ganon's only multi-hit that would be annoying is nair.

Big O already has done the stuff I hate to do... which is hitbox duration....

I'd be able to provide trajectories, pictures, base, growth, blockhitlag, blockstun, and hitlag and most of all double check his current data, and incorporate what he has.

I've been thinking who this would be great to do for...and who it'd be simple for and decided on Ganon or DK.

I personally love Ganon more so decided on him. I want this in depth data eventually for all characters and am currently trying to find people willing to put in this extreme large amount of work. (Took 6 hours for a basic character like Snake... who doesn't have many multi-hit moves, and that's not including the time Eternal Yoshi put into finding all the hitbox durations which is probably what takes longest. Same with landing lag and IASA frames on aerials. Most of which is normally already done.

I would add any info you get to make it more like the Jiggs thread and give you credit of course. Personally I'd skip the pictures until you've done most of the characters.

Good luck man.

 

[SuSa]

I'm not doing all the pictures ever.. just 1 frame of a picture for each move to give an idea of what it looks like.

To be honest, after you get the basic first hitbox - end hitbox - first IASA frame, landing lag, it only takes 4-6 hours to complete the rest of the data. (Base, Growth, Trajectory, picture for each move, etc.)

Hopefully I can start work this Sunday. I'll be doing Ganon, then Pit.

 

[Jekyll]

( Important! Banana choking doesn't work without
the StudderStep Downtoss.
The StudderStep Downtoss is what makes all of this possible. )

My bad if this is already known, but if Diddy DIs away from you while he's being choked, he ends up too far away to be hit by the StudderStep Downtoss.

You can actually glide toss and hit him, regardless of DI during the gerudo.

 

[Z1GMA]

My bad if this is already known, but if Diddy DIs away from you while he's being choked, he ends up too far away to be hit by the StudderStep Downtoss.
You can actually glide toss and hit him, regardless of DI during the gerudo.

Yeah, I noticed that too.
And yes; luckily, we have our Glide Toss.

 

[ul7r05]

Z-Dimension?

Hey that Z-Axis ordeal seems kind of cool. I wonder if that can change a few things? Probably going to test some things out. Doesn't look like Ganondorf has any moves that put him in that plane, except for Spot Dodge. Something to look into though for sure.

 

[ul7r05]

Even though Ice Climbers are an extremely hard (basically impossible so far) match up, I still think a Flame Choke follow up chart would still be good, in case they get split up. I don't know just saying.

 

[weinner]

Everything's guaranteed on IC.

 

[ul7r05]

Oh OK, thanks.

 

[PK-ow!]

I want to reduce some of the quoting in this thread and stick to just the Must-Have hard facts and quick tips, rather referencing people to the full data through quote links and URLs.


Some help making sense of the "Move Analogy" (which will change to "Moveset Analysis" soon) would be deeply, deeply appreciated.

.... kthx.



EDIT: Also, I feel there's something we can do with Demonic Step. Something using that, and reverse pivot grabbing...
EDIT2: Ooh, and mental note: Get a video of Waddle Stomping. I can do the replay myself, if someone could just record...

 

[stRIP]

EDIT2: Ooh, and mental note: Get a video of Waddle Stomping. I can do the replay myself, if someone could just record...

i could do it.

 

[PK-ow!]

Hmm, well I have a replay. Really clumsy trying to work a Wiimote with my feet for D3.
EDIT: My bro somehow lost his controller while not playing video games. =\ I'm not even going near that. 'ts not worth it.


I have bad news that something in the thread is false or just misleading. I stomped a Waddle Dee straight up and... it didn't fall down, and Dedede could throw another just fine.

The video also, I guess fortuitously, makes clear that the conditions for this are difficult to set up, as I only get D3 to "whiff" one side-B. The Dees do eventually get out of their floaty hitstun, and if not two are stunned at the same time, well, dame da.

 

[Swoops]

Question...how many frames of landing lag does Up B have after you've grabbed the ledge with aerudo? Are both of them replaced with the 20 frames of landing lag?

 

[Big O]

I'm pretty sure its landing lag doesn't change. It wouldn't really matter even if it did lower it though. Offensive up b just isn't worth doing . Lol I do them since I find dark dive interesting and finding ways to implement it into my game is something fun to do (friendlies of course).

 

[Swoops]

Well...try it, because it definitely seems lower to me >.<.

I didn't really mean using it on stage o.o. I meant you just grabbed the ledge with up B, regrab with aerudo, drop and barely land on the stage with up B. Punch helps defend you a bit, and if the lag is lower then it might be a decently useful way to get back on the stage.

 

[Big O]

I see. I'll retry it when I wake up.

 

[Z1GMA]

Well...try it, because it definitely seems lower to me >.<.

I didn't really mean using it on stage o.o. I meant you just grabbed the ledge with up B, regrab with aerudo, drop and barely land on the stage with up B. Punch helps defend you a bit, and if the lag is lower then it might be a decently useful way to get back on the stage.

I feel ya, Swoops. I've seen you do it in old matches on YT.
It is indeed a great way of recovering, at specific times, this tech of which I dunno the name.
I use to call it "Stage Diving", lulz

It speeds up your "Ledge -> Stage" when you've been sent vertically across the Stage over the ledge.
Quite frankly, it even skips the whole "Ledge -> Stage"-scenario...
And more importantly, the RCO-lag

 

[Big O]

Yeah you were right Swoops. I don't know why I never tried it lol. The flame choke's RCO seems to outprioritze everything including dark dive's landing lag and fall special lag. With RCO the dark dive has 20 frames of landing lag and fall special lag.

 

[PK-ow!]

Yeah you were right Swoops. I don't know why I never tried it lol. The flame choke's RCO seems to outprioritze everything including dark dive's landing lag and fall special lag. With RCO the dark dive has 20 frames of landing lag and fall special lag.

OMG, Big O, what did we do all that work with RCO for?

THIS IS THE AERUDO TECH. If you have RCO, Aerudo a ledge. ... alternately, Gerudo off a platform.


Nair goes in the z-axis. And fair moves a little bit to Ganon's left. Unfortunately that means it won't hit a dodging D3 that's facing you.

 

[Big O]

OMG, Big O, what did we do all that work with RCO for?

THIS IS THE AERUDO TECH. If you have RCO, Aerudo a ledge. ... alternately, Gerudo off a platform.


Nair goes in the z-axis. And fair moves a little bit to Ganon's left. Unfortunately that means it won't hit a dodging D3 that's facing you.

Does that mean Ganon can dodge attacks with Nair or does it mean that it can just hit hurtboxes in the z-axis?

I never knew the aerudo tech also replaced up b's landing lag and fall special lag when used/after grabbing someone. I knew about it reducing aerudo lag a long time ago (its only real use tbh).

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Fsmash ...21-26/57...(Attacks on frame 11 from charge release)

Dsmash ...15-18,35-38/63...(Attacks on frame 11 from charge release)

Usmash ...21-23/41...(Attacks on frame 11 from charge release)

I didn't really get this the first time I read it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What part didn't you get?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

What part didn't you get?

Attacks on frame 11 from charge release

Would that make the smashes faster when charged?

 

[Pikabunz]

It doesn't make them faster. It means it takes 11 frames for the hit box to come out after you let go of "A" during a charge.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Would that make the smashes faster when charged?

No, actually when you charge a Smash, Ganon halts on frame 10 on his F-smash and U-smash, and frame 4 of his D-smash. When you add 11 to that, then you get the normal startup time.

If you are C sticking Smashes, you have a (normal startup - charge release time) frame window to press the A or Z button to charge a C sticked Smash attack (not useful for Ganondorf since he doesn't slide very far when walking or running)

 

[PK-ow!]

PK-ow!'s next subgoal:

Get this stuff sorted.

I'm thinking of something like:


Major/complex/tactical/technique data, such as Banana choking and other things that (a) consist of a specific input, (b) change one or more matchups, and thus (c) are essential.

Followed by everything that doesn't fit another category,

and finishing with the specific tips, strategically, for Ganon; things like "SHAD is good for us," with more or less analysis as available.


I'll just be dropping the entries into these positions, and after that, think of some way to sort within them.

 

[Kishin]

Not really a Ganon tech but you could perhaps add Dash cancel -> F-smash as a tech. A dash cancel with any other attack is extremely difficult to do but F-smash is rather easy. Also Ganon has a crappy dash as we all know so it's not very efficient. Although, with the recent ganon backwards dashing faster than dash thing then fox trotting may be a good mix up at times. I think what the salmon smash really is is a dash dance forward then backward and by f-smashing you cancel the backward dash into the f-smash. So perhaps it's the combination of a shutterstepped f-smash (dash canceled f-smash) and the long range of Ganon's F-smash in the opposite direction (from the back dash). Whatever, just my theory on things.

Anyways, it's dash -> dash or backdash (backdashing gives you more range like the salmon smash), f-smash at the same time. Might be a good surprise gimmick to foxtrot a little and pull out a smash since no one expects an f-smash while Ganon foxtrots like 2 feet and comes out with a 10 foot smash out of nowhere. Not too useful with Ganon but with other characters...

 

[Bahamut777]

Ganon's Hitbox Bubbles

Snapshots

Jab

Dash Attack

FTilt

DTilt

UTilt Wind

UTilt Burst

FSmash

FSmash Angled-Up

FSmash Angled-Down

DSmash 1st Hit

DSmash 2nd Hit

USmash

Standing Grab

Running Grab

Pivot Grab

Edge Attack

Edge Attack 100%+

Trip 1st Hit

Trip 2nd Hit

Get Up Front 1st Hit

Get Up Front 2nd Hit

Get Up Back

NAir 1st Hit

NAir 2nd Hit

FAir #1

FAir #2

FAir #3

FAir #4

DAir

BAir

UAir #1

UAir #2

UAir #3 "Tipman"

Warlock Punch (aerial and reverse are the same hitbox)

Flame "Gerudo" Choke

Aerial Flame "Aerudo" Choke

Wizard Foot

Aerial Wizard Foot

Quake

Dark Dive Grab hitbox

Dark Dive Electrify hitbox

Dark Dive Uppercut hitbox

​

Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL9KQ-H1tvo

Recorded by me...
Sorry for the tedious video and the messups...

Thanks to AMKalmar for the PAC. Here is the Link.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/tjzdkmmyiqi/FitGanon.pac

Enjoy.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'm gonna be a little bit nooby, here:
Are those the actuall hitboxens, or is it your "guessing"?

Anyway, It looks accurate.
I thought Usmash would cover a greater horizontinal distance, though.

The hitboxes of the grounded Gerudo were interesting.
Having great vertical range in the opening frames might have some sort of use.