Ganon Techs, Skills, Frame Data, and Hitboxes

[hyperstation]

I've edited some new stuff in. I edited the Chainchoking with new stuff in TP OP.

and instead of just putting a link I put the OP of Hyperstations LAB. So whenever you guys get new stuff in the OP I'll try to get it added here soon.

Gleam,

I don't mind in the LEAST if you wanna post the whole thread, but I have to say that I think one of the best things about your thread is your use of paraphrasing. Posting massive chunks of text starts to veer from this useful formatting you've done for most of the thread. The chunk post of TP's chainchoking thread might work, but I think that there's just going to be WAY too much stuff in DSL over time to keep updating it. See if you can find a happy medium so that people who come into your thread aren't hit with two of the most "meta" aspects of Ganon's game, immediately being intimated to the point of bleeding eyes and seizing hearts.

 

[Gleam]

Gleam,

I don't mind in the LEAST if you wanna post the whole thread, but I have to say that I think one of the best things about your thread is your use of paraphrasing. Posting massive chunks of text starts to veer from this useful formatting you've done for most of the thread. The chunk post of TP's chainchoking thread might work, but I think that there's just going to be WAY too much stuff in DSL over time to keep updating it. See if you can find a happy medium so that people who come into your thread aren't hit with two of the most "meta" aspects of Ganon's game, immediately being intimated to the point of bleeding eyes and seizing hearts.

I understand what you're getting at. You've done a lot with the LAB and there's a lot in it. I guess my best bet is to just go back to putting links in and just give a breif overview of what to expect in your and TPs links instead of just putting in the massive post in.

 

[F3NiiX]

Gleam, Ill be updating the chart regularly, so I don't know if itd be more practical for you to just put a link to my post or whatever, but Ill basically update it whenever I get more done.

 

[Gleam]

*just updated the OP with your new chart btw*

I'll probably just put your chart in and unless you have something you can't specifically put in the chart, just tell me and I'll put it in seperately.

 

[F3NiiX]

kk, sounds good

 

[GanonkingAbyss]

idk if any1 else found this, but it seems i have a lot of luck w/dthrow then uair, it works really well against mks, and against some of the slower characters or players who dont react in time u can grab again

 

[Gleam]

idk if any1 else found this, but it seems i have a lot of luck w/dthrow then uair, it works really well against mks, and against some of the slower characters or players who dont react in time u can grab again

Unfortunatley because of lack of hitstun...or in this case really, lack of enough hitstun. Truthfully anybody should be able to dodge or attack after being D-throwed before Ganon can Uair.

 

[Xyro77]

Attention Ganon mains.

i see on the front page ALOT of techs that need videos. If any of you can do them and send them to me through a replay i can get them online in like one hour. AIM me at xyro77 or PM me asap if you want some of these vids up.

 

[Squirrely]

How very generous. Someone take him up on that. Everyone can appreciate video tutorials to the inner-workings of Ganon.

 

[:034:]

I would, but my tech skill is really low >_> Can't do a waveshine in Melee, even. You're probably better off taking it up with some of the more technical (and active, I'm looking at you DAD) Ganons like Z1GMA or Ray Kalm.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Flame Choke -> Full Hop Warlock Punch

too sexy =P

 

[Xyro77]

How very generous. Someone take him up on that. Everyone can appreciate video tutorials to the inner-workings of Ganon.

ye splease do. These videos will help current ganon mains and FUTURE ganon mains and perhaps make him better down the road.

 

[:034:]

Good **** Big O :D

 

[B!squick]

Yay! Ganon frame data! :D

 

[Z1GMA]

This is delicious, Big O.

 

[Gleam]

Considering how much we needed a "Frame Data" and how everyone was asking for one.

This should be stickied. lol.

Good job Big O

 

[PhantomX]

Yeah, as soon as I saw that it wasn't a joke thread it was an instant sticky, haha.

 

[TP]

Yay. I'm not the only one who cares about Ganon.

Good ****.

An aerial choke has much less landing lag if done from high up.

Could you get us the RCO from Dark Dive and from Choke?

Also, I would LOVE to see data concerning the Choke. Like how many frames Ganon can move before the opponent can, with both grounded and aerial choke. That would be awesome.

 

[Teronist09]

Detail. Yum.
I know angled fsmash doesn't end faster, but do the attacking frames come out sooner?

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Nice Stuff Big O.
Very Helpful.

Good Job !

 

[Big O]

Angling his Fsmash doesn't change the starting or ending lag. It is basically the same. I also added RCO info in the aerial flame choke and dark dive special notes. I think the frame advantage for the flame choke also changes based on who you do it on. I'll get around to that eventually.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Huh, so a perfect B-air autocancel is safe on block.

The only question is...is there anything you can actually hit with a perfect B-air autocancel?

And haha at U-smash advantage. Pretty awesome.

 

[Big O]

I did it on Ike and Ganon powershields his jab OoS which hits on frame 3. You could also do it on anyone standing on a platform and AC that way.

 

[Pikabunz]

I have flame choke frame advantage already collected. Gonna post it as soon as I find it.

 

[Noobicidal]

I have flame choke frame advantage already collected. Gonna post it as soon as I find it.

Sounds hot; I can't wait.

 

[Pikabunz]

Flame Choke Frame Advantage

8 Ganondorf

9 Bowser
9 DK
9 Falco
9 Link
9 Lucario
9 Marth
9 Snake
9 Wolf

10 DDD
10 Falcon
10 Fox
10 Ike
10 Mario
10 Peach
10 Pit
10 Sheik
10 Sonic
10 Zelda

11 Charizard
11 Diddy
11 Luigi
11 Pikachu
11 Toon Link

12 G&W
12 Ice Climbers
12 Ivysaur
12 Jigglypuff
12 Kirby
12 Lucas
12 Metaknight
12 Ness
12 ROB
12 Squirtle
12 Wario
12 Yoshi
12 ZSS

16 Olimar

 

[Big O]

Nice now I don't have to do it lol. I had a feeling it was mostly based on height with some influences by tumble animations and floatiness. I guess I was mostly right. Lol at guaranteed Dsmash on Olimar.

 

[MoblinMan]

Wait, ZSS has 12 frames disadvantage but we have no follow ups on her, right? If I am, how does that even work?

 

[ItemfinderDeluxe]

That's because ZSS has a very fast roll, so most Gerudo follow-ups don't work if they buffer it. However, a buffered D-Tilt should should work though.

1. Do you think you could find the frame data for Ganon's Grab OOS, and Reverse Pivot Grab OOS?
2. We all know of U-Smash, D-Tilt, and B-Air, but is there anything else in his arsenal with IASA frames?

 

[Big O]

Well according to the list in Swoop's guide Dtilt does work on ZSS. The frame advantage also agrees with that. I did look at the list to see who only had the jab as a guaranteed follow-up and the problem characters who had situational/no follow-ups and the data matched with the list in Swoop's guide. It appears that K Prime forgot to include Samus though.

Ganon's grab OoS grabs on frame 7 and a pivot grab OoS grabs on frame 17. I'm not sure if you can buffer a dash in the opposite direction so if you can't it would probably be more like 20 on average doing it OoS if you were pretty good with your timing. All of my numbers for the completion frames already take IASA frames into account so you don't need to worry about that. Just know that you can do anything after whats listed as the completion frame.

 

[TP]

You say Dair lasts 44 frames, but a short hop is only 31. Does that mean Dair does autocancel? Same for Uair at 33.

 

[Big O]

Yeah both auto cancel. I just didn't get around to going into the details of when each aerial can AC yet. I put down the one for Bair since I used it in the frame advantage tests to achieve what seems to be his safest move on block.

 

[Pikabunz]

Frame advantage on Samus is 9.

 

[Z1GMA]

It's easy to see why Dsmash is garanteed on Olimar, now.
And that jab would've been garanteed on Marth, Falco & Lucario, if they were "fat" .

K_Prime, that's VERY useful !!

Thx to this, it'll be much easier to complete my latest Flame Choke research :] *hint hint*

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

btw, one very important question...
Can the opponent DI up or down to increase/decrease the number of frames it takes for them to hit the ground, after the Geurdo?
I really hope they can not '_'`

 

[A2ZOMG]

If only Ganon's moveset was about 2-3 frames faster...

 

[:034:]

You say Dair lasts 44 frames, but a short hop is only 31. Does that mean Dair does autocancel? Same for Uair at 33.

I am interested. Double jump falling dair might not be so far off after all, huh?

 

[Big O]

I added when each aerial can AC and fixed the Bair frame advantage. It seems I hit Ike's shield on frame 11 when I tried it the first time and never noticed it.

 

[ItemfinderDeluxe]

Also, do you think you could pull up the aerial Choke frame advantage (if any)? It's just that I've taken to throwing it into a counter-aerial game I'm working on against Peach, Jigglypuff, and Wario. I doubt it will be anything big, but every frame helps.

That, and have you tried SH U-Air OOS yet?

 

[Big O]

Also, do you think you could pull up the aerial Choke frame advantage (if any)? It's just that I've taken to throwing it into a counter-aerial game I'm working on against Peach, Jigglypuff, and Wario. I doubt it will be anything big, but every frame helps.

That, and have you tried SH U-Air OOS yet?

Something tells me you are confusing OoS with shield advantage. Shield advantage is how many frames you have after attacking a shield before both of you can do something. If negative it means the opponent can retaliate before you can. If positive you can do stuff before they even have a chance to fight back.

Since you want to know OoS stuff I will give you an outline of how to figure it out. Everything except grab, up smash, up b, and quake take 7 frames longer than usual when done OoS. There is a 7 frame shield drop lag or 7 frames of jump lag that every other option has to go through. Grabs can be while shielding and an up smash/b can be done instantly OoS by jump canceling into them while shielding. Quake already takes the jump lag into account and shielding doesn't change that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hmmmm, now that you mention that, quake out of shield seems like a possible alternative to shieldgrabbing grounded opponents...you'll get punished either way if you whiff, but it's Ganon's 2nd fastest oos option, and it of course has better range than the grab. Not to mention it hits behind him.

Also...just throwing it out there...you have to slightly delay when you throw out B-air to get the perfect autocancel. Just one thing you can't do with buffering (osnap!).