G&W in Brawl+

[Dark Sonic]

I can pivot 100% in vbrawl. Small pivots, true pivots, anything. Making the window larger just makes it easier...that doesn't change it's usefulness.

Not the window, the length. Sorry if I worded it wrong.

You get more distance out of your pivots (and I'm talking about true pivots, not that Foxtrot->pivot thing.)

And every character relied heavily on spacing in melee. You have to space Falcos pillar so that the shine hits them or they grab you yeah? It's generally considered best to cross up your opponents shield with fox's nairplane yeah? Of course spacing is important, I would never argue differently.

Sorry, I should've said as heavily. But for that last sentence....

The spacing adjustments are not that significant considering the speed of the game.

Umm....you said it just a few minutes ago.

I don't even know what you are trying to argue or what I'm trying to prove actually. How does dash canceling and a larger pivot window relate to GW in Brawl+?

...

Dash canceling lets you approach with d-tilts, and lets you use smashes other than just upsmash to punish whiffed attacks. Pivoting lets you make immediate spacing adjustments to reduce the effectiveness of the opponent's approaches (pivot d-smash to the face?) These things should be fairly useful to G&W no?

 

[Hylian]

Not the window, the length. Sorry if I worded it wrong.

You get more distance out of your pivots (and I'm talking about true pivots, not that Foxtrot->pivot thing.)

Now I'm confused. Do you mean the pivoting sakurai put in brawl? Grabbing behind you while running? Or pivoting like melee? Which is just canceling your dash animation into your standing animation.

Umm....you said it just a few minutes ago.

Um...no I didn't? I said the addition of dash canceling wouldn't significantly increase ones spacing options because of the speed of the game. You can't bait a movement and punish without them having time to react like melee very easily. Making your opponent commit to a move isn't nearly as effective as it was in melee.

Dash canceling lets you approach with d-tilts, and lets you use smashes other than just upsmash to punish whiffed attacks. Pivoting lets you make immediate spacing adjustments to reduce the effectiveness of the opponent's approaches (pivot d-smash to the face?) These things should be fairly useful to G&W no?

You could already approach with Dtilts lol, and what whiffed moves are you punishing with smashes? Generally you punish AD's and spotdodges, attacks end to quickly for GW's slow smashes.

Also, I know what pivoting does, I use it all the time. I didn't see a difference in brawl+...it's the same thing.

 

[cutter]

The thing is... pivoting still doesn't solve the problem that G&W's smashes are lethargically slow and are really hard to connect with against good players.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Now I'm confused. Do you mean the pivoting sakurai put in brawl? Grabbing behind you while running? Or pivoting like melee? Which is just canceling your dash animation into your standing animation.

Melee pivoting. So you can do any move out of it. The length of it is equal to your dash dance length.

Um...no I didn't? I said the addition of dash canceling wouldn't significantly increase ones spacing options because of the speed of the game. You can't bait a movement and punish without them having time to react like melee very easily. Making your opponent commit to a move isn't nearly as effective as it was in melee.

I'll give you that. But you'd be surprised how many approaches become ineffective when you just pivot f-tilt, f-smash or d-smash them out of it (and 16 and 14 frames of startup isn't that bad for his smashes).

You could already approach with Dtilts lol

Yeah, by....walking. Which is really, really slow. Either that your you could shield out of your dash and then let go of your shield...which takes a total of 9 frames.

and what whiffed moves are you punishing with smashes? Generally you punish AD's and spotdodges, attacks end to quickly for GW's slow smashes.

Pretty much any attack that the opponent would try to cross-up with, and non-disjointed spacing attacks like DK's bair. I will admit that it's not exactly a reliable kill setup, but it certainly is not useless.

Also, I know what pivoting does, I use it all the time. I didn't see a difference in brawl+...it's the same thing.

I'm not talking about pivot grabs (which is honestly a stupid name since we've had pivot grabs since melee. Why can't we just call it reverse grab?), I'm talking about true pivots. Where you dash and cancel the initial dash animation into a standing animation. This is very useful for baiting and punishing approaches, in the same way that dash dancing is. You can use any move out of a true pivot, the easiest being moves that don't involve titling the control stick. Jab, f-smash, d-smash, upsmash, jump, and grab are extremely easy (f-tilt is not that difficult either).

 

[shanus]

I'm just wondering for both of you (Hylian and Cutter), how much have you both played Brawl+? Like a week (once, a few times, frequently), a month, etc? I just want to know how well–versed you are with its gameplay. If you don't know the changelist or whats entirely in it, I suggest you read the Plussery Thread second post for a comprehensive changelist.

I just want to make sure that you aren't basing these balancing opinions off of like a few hours of gameplay, or significant experience. Not questioning your credibility, I just want to make sure since it is very important to know it.

With that said, I'll look into the changes I mentioned earlier.

 

[CountKaiser]

Personally, I'd rather have a way to kill the opponent on stage rather than buffing G&W's off stage game. His edgeguarding game is good as is, and it doesn't need a buff if he can reliably kill on the ground as well.

 

[Ulevo]

Hylian, you really are wasting your time and talents by trying to argue your points on this project. I sincerely suggest you do not waste your time doing so.


On a very important note, G&W Smashes. They are all definetly spammable.

The moves link into themseleves so fast and are so strong, with no stale moves its just too stupid good.

 

[goodoldganon]

Hylian, you really are wasting your time and talents by trying to argue your points on this project. I sincerely suggest you do not waste your time doing so.

That's a straight up lie. We have taken the opinions of the players on six characters and done our best to implement the reasonable changes. If someone (Hylian) approaches us with reason we are more then willing to listen. All I want to know is how long he has been playing B+. It certainly is easier to play then Melee but you can't understand it's metagame in a 5 hour play session for example. There is a reason that we haven't nerfed Fox even though everyone says he's OP in their first playings...

On a very important note, G&W Smashes. They are all definetly spammable.

The moves link into themseleves so fast and are so strong, with no stale moves its just too stupid good.

Link into themselves? Like combo into themselves? Cause that's not true at all. If you mean that they have IASA frames into themselves that is true, but we slowed down the downsmash (which I'm starting to feel was unnecessary). Either way, they come out at medium speed and can be spot dodged or rolled away from.

I repeat the point I don't think G and W really needs help after the D-smash nerf but it's something we'll look into. I'm gonna play some tonight and see how G and W fairs.

 

[Ulevo]

That's a straight up lie. We have taken the opinions of the players on six characters and done our best to implement the reasonable changes. If someone (Hylian) approaches us with reason we are more then willing to listen. All I want to know is how long he has been playing B+. It certainly is easier to play then Melee but you can't understand it's metagame in a 5 hour play session for example. There is a reason that we haven't nerfed Fox even though everyone says he's OP in their first playings...

Sure.

Link into themselves? Like combo into themselves? Cause that's not true at all. If you mean that they have IASA frames into themselves that is true, but we slowed down the downsmash (which I'm starting to feel was unnecessary). Either way, they come out at medium speed and can be spot dodged or rolled away from.

I repeat the point I don't think G and W really needs help after the D-smash nerf but it's something we'll look into. I'm gonna play some tonight and see how G and W fairs.

I was not actually serious about any of that. I was quoting Cape because I thought it sounded humorous. It was, considering how ridiculous it is.

A perfect example of the fine WBR we have responsible for forming a new game. Exhilarating.

 

[Shell]

Ulevo, your humor needs [joke] [/joke] tags or something... a bit too fine a line between dry humor and insults, I think.

 

[Ulevo]

I really don't have a problem with others interpretations on it, so it's alright.

 

[Vyse]

I really don't have a problem with others interpretations on it, so it's alright.

But others do. When they have a problem with it, so do I.
So be respectful please.

 

[Swordplay]

I'd like to see GW's D-tilt combo into Fsmash.
that would be so sweet. And I know some people in the IRC thought it was a half decent idea.
My other not so great idea was to have d-tilt combo into box because GW can do box out of up-b. but also increase box knockback

 

[shanus]

Ulevo, take up your distaste with someone through PMs, its outright disrespectful and contributes nothing to a thread where we had a good discussion and effectively derailed it.

Back to G&W, I'm gonna work on these changes tonight, but before I incorporate these I'd just like to hear back from cutter and hylian on my previous questions.

 

[Hylian]

Melee pivoting. So you can do any move out of it. The length of it is equal to your dash dance length.

Ok. My point is that you can do a melee pivot in vbrawl already.

I'll give you that. But you'd be surprised how many approaches become ineffective when you just pivot f-tilt, f-smash or d-smash them out of it (and 16 and 14 frames of startup isn't that bad for his smashes).

I wouldn't be suprised, because you can already do this in vbrawl, and I do it often. You are talking about pivoting like you couldn't do it in vbrawl.

Yeah, by....walking. Which is really, really slow. Either that your you could shield out of your dash and then let go of your shield...which takes a total of 9 frames.

Or by SHADing into buffered dtilt..or buy full hop whatever move into dtilt. Or by bair cancel into dtilt.

And since when does speed suddenly make it better? Walking is very effective, because you can react to your opponents options fairly easily as opposed to just running at them.

Pretty much any attack that the opponent would try to cross-up with, and non-disjointed spacing attacks like DK's bair. I will admit that it's not exactly a reliable kill setup, but it certainly is not useless.

1. There is almost no attack in brawl that GW has time to puinsh with a smash if they cross up your shield, and hit it.

2. That's intercepting an attack, not punishing a whiffed one. Completly different.

I'm not talking about pivot grabs (which is honestly a stupid name since we've had pivot grabs since melee. Why can't we just call it reverse grab?), I'm talking about true pivots. Where you dash and cancel the initial dash animation into a standing animation. This is very useful for baiting and punishing approaches, in the same way that dash dancing is. You can use any move out of a true pivot, the easiest being moves that don't involve titling the control stick. Jab, f-smash, d-smash, upsmash, jump, and grab are extremely easy (f-tilt is not that difficult either).

Again, I know what pivoting is, and it's possible in vbrawl.

I'm just wondering for both of you (Hylian and Cutter), how much have you both played Brawl+? Like a week (once, a few times, frequently), a month, etc? I just want to know how well–versed you are with its gameplay. If you don't know the changelist or whats entirely in it, I suggest you read the Plussery Thread second post for a comprehensive changelist.

I just want to make sure that you aren't basing these balancing opinions off of like a few hours of gameplay, or significant experience. Not questioning your credibility, I just want to make sure since it is very important to know it.

With that said, I'll look into the changes I mentioned earlier.

Even if I didn't have much experience, I probably have more experience with GW then anyone on this planet(save for maybe a few japanese smashers...maybe lol). I've played almost every top level player in brawl(save a few cali ones), travled a lot and expereienced high level play. I've also won over $2000 from this game. Really, just looking at the changelist I could tell you these things with NO experience, because I understand this game very well.

To answer your question though, I was one of the very first people playing brawl+. I had the no tripping code on my wii almost the same day it came out, and have videos of me playing brawl+ before it was called that(with melee airdodge etc) right when those codes came out. I gave a lot of feedback to the SBR about it, and have been playing it maybe even longer then you have. My last session was about 7 hours long. I also think I was one of the first people to bring brawl+ to a tournament to see the feedback.

I have credientials.

Personally, I'd rather have a way to kill the opponent on stage rather than buffing G&W's off stage game. His edgeguarding game is good as is, and it doesn't need a buff if he can reliably kill on the ground as well.

Agreed.

Hylian, you really are wasting your time and talents by trying to argue your points on this project. I sincerely suggest you do not waste your time doing so.


On a very important note, G&W Smashes. They are all definetly spammable.

The moves link into themseleves so fast and are so strong, with no stale moves its just too stupid good.

If you feel that way, then just don't worry about it. I can be pretty convincing, and wouldn't put effort into something unless I thought something good was going to come out of it.

LOL @ the sarcasm though. I love sarcasm .

 

[Dark Sonic]

I wouldn't be suprised, because you can already do this in vbrawl, and I do it often. You are talking about pivoting like you couldn't do it in vbrawl.

You could do it in vbrawl sure, but you didn't get nearly the same amount of distance out of it which is what I'm getting at. The new dash dance length also added to the total pivot distance.

Or by SHADing into buffered dtilt..or buy full hop whatever move into dtilt. Or by bair cancel into dtilt.

Which once again are not exactly fast approaches. Doing other moves into d-tilt also...means that you're not approaching with d-tilt are you?

And since when does speed suddenly make it better? Walking is very effective, because you can react to your opponents options fairly easily as opposed to just running at them.

Yes I know that walking is effective, but you have the same options while running now. Anything that you can do out of a walk you can also do out of a run.

1. There is almost no attack in brawl that GW has time to puinsh with a smash if they cross up your shield, and hit it.

2. That's intercepting an attack, not punishing a whiffed one. Completly different.

Well it's basically the same concept. You made them miss by moving away from them and punished them for it. And it's not like other characters have an easy time punishing shielded aerials either (a lot of aerials are safe on block). The cross up part was referring to crossups where they opponent tries to land directly behind you after the aerial, not when he's coming right in front of you and doing the aerial as late as possible trying to land way behind you.

But fine I will concede. Landing a smash with G&W is not easy. It just feels like you're writing off pivoting as some small technique that didn't change from vbrawl, when it's actually much much better now. Maybe it's not that much better with G&W (his dash dance isn't really that big), but for a fast character like Sonic it's pretty much a staple technique IMO.

Again, I know what pivoting is, and it's possible in vbrawl.

Possible, but also very limited. You can travel more than twice as far now before pivoting. How is this not a significant change?

 

[Blank Mauser]

I personally don't see whats wrong with G&W. Even if his on-stage killers are lacking his DC moves like Dtilt make it incredibly easy to set up for those edgeguards he needs. His recovery is also great and his up-B is almost too safe even on-stage. Point being that the faster options allow him to use them more offensively than in vBrawl.

Fair isn't just great off-stage either, it works pretty well on-stage especially with techchasing. I do think his Dthrow could be better maybe. His Aerial combos may not be guaranteed but he has so much priority does it really matter?

Also, think about buffing G&W. I mean sure he has bad matchups, but look at the good ones he has. A lot of characters can't touch him. Jiggs vs. G&W for instance is extremely bad for Jiggs, who relies mainly on edgeguards and rests, while G&W wrecks her with great priority and kill moves that will destroy her at really low percentages. Another char that seems to have trouble with him is Sonic.

Not to mention even if his smashes are slower, they're still unpunishable and have huge range + knockback. Maybe when played against right they're hard to land, but when used right they can be absolutely devestating.

 

[Hylian]

You could do it in vbrawl sure, but you didn't get nearly the same amount of distance out of it which is what I'm getting at. The new dash dance length also added to the total pivot distance.

Ok, got it.

Which once again are not exactly fast approaches.
Yes I know that walking is effective, but you have the same options while running now. Anything that you can do out of a walk you can also do out of a run.

Speed /=/ effective. You missed my point. Having options while just running at your opponent isn't that significant, because you have a small time for reaction. Your opponent is the one with the spacing, and reaction advantage as anything you do will be telegraphed quite easily. You keep options available by moving in and out of your opponents attack range, not by just running at them. In brawl you generally do this with a jump, or approaching then walking backwards to bait a reaction. Being able to dtilt straight out of a run is nice and all, but it isn't THAT amazing.

Well it's basically the same concept. You made them miss by moving away from them and punished them for it. And it's not like other characters have an easy time punishing shielded aerials either (a lot of aerials are safe on block). The cross up part was referring to crossups where they opponent tries to land directly behind you after the aerial, not when he's coming right in front of you and doing the aerial as late as possible trying to land way behind you.

I know what crossing up someones shield is, and my statement still holds true. ESPECIALLY true in Brawl+ where there is shieldstun.

But fine I will concede. Landing a smash with G&W is not easy. It just feels like you're writing off pivoting as some small technique that didn't change from vbrawl, when it's actually much much better now. Maybe it's not that much better with G&W (his dash dance isn't really that big), but for a fast character like Sonic it's pretty much a staple technique IMO.

We are talking about GW, not Sonic. Anything I say is going to be reffering to his play unless stated otherwise. I'm not saying it's useless, I'm saying it doesn't make his kill moves easy enough to land to compensate for how fast he dies now.

Possible, but also very limited. You can travel more than twice as far now before pivoting. How is this not a significant change?

It's not the movement I'm talking about, but the effectiveness.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I find it funny G&W may be buffed before Sonic. I don't know, maybe I should act more like Hylian.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Speed /=/ effective. You missed my point. Having options while just running at your opponent isn't that significant, because you have a small time for reaction.

Small time for reaction? Running gives you more than enough time to react, given you have some idea of what your opponent is capable of at the time.

Your opponent is the one with the spacing, and reaction advantage as anything you do will be telegraphed quite easily.

Which is why you don't use fully committed approaches. D-tilt has plenty of range and low startup, so you can mix it up with RAR'd bairs and crossup nairs (then again, this one IS fully committed). Heck I've seen people approach with dash canceled jabs every now and then since the opponent had been conditioned to spotdodge on reaction to approaches.

You keep options available by moving in and out of your opponents attack range, not by just running at them.

You don't have to keep running at them. You can bail out at any time.

In brawl you generally do this with a jump, or approaching then walking backwards to bait a reaction. Being able to dtilt straight out of a run is nice and all, but it isn't THAT amazing.

And in brawl+ you generally do that by dashing forward and dash canceling at a desired distance so that you can mix it up from there via dash dancing, shading, empy shorthops, ect, ect. I'm not just mindlessly running at my opponent, I'm using the speed to close the distance quickly and then setting myself at an appropriate range to do my actual approach.

Though sometimes I'd run at them anyway since it's a mixup. At which point...dash cancel d-tilt seems like it'd be useful.

I know what crossing up someones shield is, and my statement still holds true. ESPECIALLY true in Brawl+ where there is shieldstun.

And if they don't hit your shield because you dashed back? And you didn't have to shield at all because they just missed? That's what the pivot was intended to do. But maybe G&W's pivot isn't large enough to do that...Guess I'll have to concede here too.

We are talking about GW, not Sonic. Anything I say is going to be reffering to his play unless stated otherwise. I'm not saying it's useless, I'm saying it doesn't make his kill moves easy enough to land to compensate for how fast he dies now.

Agreed.

It's not the movement I'm talking about, but the effectiveness.

I suppose it's just character specific then. Oh well.

 

[Hylian]

Small time for reaction? Running gives you more than enough time to react, given you have some idea of what your opponent is capable of at the time.

Yes...but it gives your opponent more time to react, as they have more options and better spacing tools when you approach them.

Which is why you don't use fully committed approaches. D-tilt has plenty of range and low startup, so you can mix it up with RAR'd bairs and crossup nairs. Heck I've seen people approach with dash canceled jabs every now and then since the opponent had been conditioned to spotdodge on reaction to approaches.

Things like this make me shake my head :/. I don't mean to sound condescending, but if you can condition someone to spotdodge approaches, then you can probably beat them by just spamming one move.

I feel like you are missing pretty much all of my points and going off on your own tangents about situational uses for specific things :/.

You don't have to keep running at them. You can bail out at any time.

Really? I had no idea. [Sarcasm].
Come on now, you are pretty much reenforcing my statements at this point. Bailing out before you reach your opponent is almost always your safest and best option, to try and bait a reaction with DD'ing or whatever. THIS WAS ALSO TRUE IN vBRAWL. My entire point is that dash canceling adds about one useful option for GW's approach, but you are probably going to just be drifiting around your opponents hitbox range anyways making it a mute option.

Yes, it's great to have options. No, this particular option doesn't actually change much.

And in brawl+ you generally do that by dashing forward and dash canceling at a desired distance so that you can mix it up from there via dash dancing, shading, empy shorthops, ect, ect. I'm not just mindlessly running at my opponent, I'm using the speed to close the distance quickly and then setting myself at an appropriate range to do my actual approach.

And how is this any different then using a jump, or just foxtrotting in vbrawl? Or walking? You are still getting to the same zone outside your opponent, now you can just dtilt with some momentum. The desired goal is the zone, not the method of getting there.

Though sometimes I'd run at them anyway since it's a mixup. At which point...dash cancel d-tilt seems like it'd be useful.

As well as the tons of other things you should be thinking about while in a match considering adaptation and conditioning, stage position, etc. Listing situational stuff like this leads no where.

And if they don't hit your shield because you dashed back? That's what the pivot was intended to do. But maybe G&W's pivot isn't large enough to do that...Guess I'll have to concede here too.

If someone is crossing up your shield(which is usually only done with multi-hitting moves or ones with lingering hitboxes) you should not have time to dash back and still be in range to hit them considering they can just pull back on the control stick. Cross-up attacks are usually started pretty much on an opponents shield or body, not before.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Another funny thing, Hylian reacted to Dark Sonic's argument the same way I did back with Sonic lol.

Hylian I'd like to know, how easy do you think it really is to kill G&W? He has some great range on his moves, and a lot of them come out fast enough to keep certain characters away. Unless the G&W is just throwing out aerials like "Oh hai Fox, Usmash me!" then it doesn't seem like it would be easy to get in-between the wall that is G&W. As for comboing him, I always suspected he was a floaty character and got out of most combos pretty easy. If he really is indeed getting "entire stocks erased" then I would suggest making him floatier. Only concern may be that he dies 1-2% earlier.

Not every character can properly combo into a killer on-stage, and those that can usually have inherent flaws. Fox and Falcon are FF'ers, have easily gimpable recoveries, and not the best priority. G&W is floaty, ungimpable, kills well off-stage, and has amazing priority. I'd rather not get rid of weaknesses just for the fact that they're a weakness, because G&W already has a good array of strengths to choose from. I don't know, I just think he'd be ridiculous with an easy way to set up for a killer on-stage.

Also, I'd like to say to Ulevo that I respected you the most as a voice in B+. I agree'd with everything you said and thought you were very reasonable and experienced. I don't know what made you become cynical about the project, but it really is a shame.

 

[Plum]

Another funny thing, Hylian reacted to Dark Sonic's argument the same way I did back with Sonic lol.

Hylian I'd like to know, how easy do you think it really is to kill G&W? He has some great range on his moves, and a lot of them come out fast enough to keep certain characters away. Unless the G&W is just throwing out aerials like "Oh hai Fox, Usmash me!" then it doesn't seem like it would be easy to get in-between the wall that is G&W. As for comboing him, I always suspected he was a floaty character and got out of most combos pretty easy. If he really is indeed getting "entire stocks erased" then I would suggest making him floatier. Only concern may be that he dies 1-2% earlier.

Not every character can properly combo into a killer on-stage, and those that can usually have inherent flaws. Fox and Falcon are FF'ers, have easily gimpable recoveries, and not the best priority. G&W is floaty, ungimpable, kills well off-stage, and has amazing priority. I'd rather not get rid of weaknesses just for the fact that they're a weakness, because G&W already has a good array of strengths to choose from. I don't know, I just think he'd be ridiculous with an easy way to set up for a killer on-stage.

Also, I'd like to say to Ulevo that I respected you the most as a voice in B+. I agree'd with everything you said and thought you were very reasonable and experienced. I don't know what made you become cynical about the project, but it really is a shame.

The problem is that G&W really isn't a floaty character. It's not like he is a rock in the air but he definitely isn't floaty. He flies somewhere in the middle and while that doesn't seem like a problem, it really becomes one when you combine that with his weight. Being in that middle ground, he can go from 0-40, 50 or potentially 60 from a lot of characters. Doesn't seem so bad, half the cast will take as much from a good combo character, fast fallers and fatties might be worse off. But they don't happen to be the second lightest character in the game. One combo already puts G&W in kill percent. G&W is very easy to tech chase, even with the speed up tech game, so that hinders him even more. Fox can just combo into Uair and kill him at like 60% all while constantly running circles around him. Same with other characters. Don't get me started about Marth. That matchup was bad enough in vBrawl; now it is practically hopeless.

Basically he is more like his Melee self in Brawl+. He sucked in Melee because most characters could combo him up to his ridiculously low kill percent. The lack of hitstun makes him good in vBrawl and now that is gone.

In vBrawl a lot of kills come from off stage kills or tech chasing Dthrow. The increased tech speed makes the latter option essentially useless because a vast majority tech too far and fast and can throw up a shield well before G&W can even get there. Off stage G&W is fine and doesn't need help really. On the ground though his only option is Fair which is a poor kill move outside of killing off stage. All he has right now to kill no matter where he is is basically Fair... It is more usable on stage with ALC but doesn't change that it is a mediocre kill move on stage.

 

[Gindler]

As far as pivoting goes............isn't this a combo game? pivots are for punishment and Geedub is plenty good at that as it is. Maybe they could weaken the knockback on the last hit of his Nair so he can chain them even better? Also what finisher would you want G&W to be able to combo into? all of his smashes are pretty powerful so him killing everyone at 70-80 percent would just completely flip him from what he was causing just another problem.

 

[CountKaiser]

I still say that his smashes should come out faster and then have increased winddown.

Personally, I'd like for dsmash to be G&W's go-to killer. Fsmash is good for punishing spotdodges, and usmash is used for techchasing(even though that's a bit impossible.)

As for comboing, his combos are very basic, and once damage stale is put into place, will become even less effective. It'd be nice if the last hit of nair and bair had less KB, so that he could combo more into them.

I'll have some videos up soon on how hard it is for him to kill onstage, and how he has to rely heavily on gimping in order to get a kill.

And I agree with plum on G&W not really being floaty. He can still be comboed rather easily, too easily for such a horrible light character. Maybe modify his grav to be a bit floatier, though that would make him even lighter.

Isn't there some kind of "mass" constant taken into account when a character is launched? Can't we edit that somehow?

 

[goodoldganon]

Sounds good. I'm interested to see.

 

[The Cape]

GW seems to be the type of char that plays an excellent defense but his offense is limited.

His high priority moves with good spacing seem to be really hard to get inside, sure he has trouble setting up kills, but he also is very hard to approach is set up correctly. I will give him more time this weekend and see if I can figure him out, but I can definetly see the points made in this thread.

 

[CountKaiser]

Finnz and I had an interesting idea.

Lower the base KB and angle of bair, while also lowering the base KB of nair.

I'd like to hear what eveyone else thinks about this.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Bair might be okay, but Nair may be a little over the top as its less punishable and is pretty easy to hit with.

 

[Sr. P & R]

Although I can't exacly contribute much to this disussion, I'm glad G&W is getting some more attention in B+. Playing him in B+, he seems a little overlooked in a few areas.

 

[Problem2]

Watching so many people trying to debate against Hylian makes me lol. Hylian is a very competent player. I personally only played him twice in one tournament (vBrawl), but I played a person of similar skill named Smashingdude (aka Dr. Marioguy) for several friendlies at Brawl+, and he whipped my butt hardcore.

The point is, we really need more high level players who can give advice about their mains. The Brawl+ community has already corrected the most obvious problems and flaws with characters that easily prevented them from being tournament viable, but we are getting harder obstacles where the precise problem is not so apparent. I'm not saying that I would fully accept advice for Peach by Mew2King, but I would definitely try and include as many points he gave about Metaknight.

In a similar fashion, I believe that the points Hylian has brought up are very valid. How many people have honestly landed a smash from a combo? If so, how often? Mr.G&W has some excellent kill moves, but they are all on the ground, and he his set up game on the ground from the little I played, is not that great.

 

[Blank Mauser]

How many times does he need to combo into a smash though? And how many characters can really do that in the first place? Is it really hard for G&W to get people in the air or off the edge? We shouldn't simply buff someone because they're lacking in a certain department. Making a character perfect, or averaging them out is kind of counter-productive to the goal.

I do agree that for such a light character, G&W SHOULDN'T be able to get combo'd as much. I don't know how much that applies now, but I would say a floaty G&W is ideal.

 

[Hylian]

People are actually harrassing me about this outside of this topic(Aim,PMs,Livestream of whobo?!?)

It's starting to really bother me, so I'm just not going to bother anymore :/. It's not worth being annoyed about.

 

[Ulevo]

Also, I'd like to say to Ulevo that I respected you the most as a voice in B+. I agree'd with everything you said and thought you were very reasonable and experienced. I don't know what made you become cynical about the project, but it really is a shame.

This project will be a failure, and the Smash scene is dying. And those who are willing to revive the game, clinging to the past, are those who would do it for what it is they desire, not what is best. Nothing is logical amongst this community, everything is arbitrarily decided or subjectively discussed, with no rhyme or reason. And yet here we are trying to fix a failed creation. It has been nothing more than a waste of my time, and I do assure you, the rest of you are in no different of a position.

Once you realize that top players care nothing for the community, 98% of this community are useless moronic leeches, Brawl is dead, Brawl Plus is nothing but a comical mockery of fighting games, and there is so much more you could be doing with your time and effort, you'll feel the need to spit on this game and its players too.

 

[GHNeko]

People are actually harrassing me about this outside of this topic(Aim,PMs,Livestream of whobo?!?)

It's starting to really bother me, so I'm just not going to bother anymore :/. It's not worth being annoyed about.

...I wish I had been in this thread earlier. I would of asked for you friendlies in B+ during Whobo.

Spoiler

oh, btw, I'm the black kid who played DDR with you on Sunday.

D:

 

[goodoldganon]

People are actually harrassing me about this outside of this topic(Aim,PMs,Livestream of whobo?!?)

It's starting to really bother me, so I'm just not going to bother anymore :/. It's not worth being annoyed about.

I'm sorry to hear that Hylian. I don't blame you for ditching it. Hopefully you can talk to some more logical members at a later point.

Sorry Meta Knight got nerfed Ulevo, but you can get over it I bet.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

This project will be a failure, and the Smash scene is dying. And those who are willing to revive the game, clinging to the past, are those who would do it for what it is they desire, not what is best. Nothing is logical amongst this community, everything is arbitrarily decided or subjectively discussed, with no rhyme or reason. And yet here we are trying to fix a failed creation. It has been nothing more than a waste of my time, and I do assure you, the rest of you are in no different of a position.

Once you realize that top players care nothing for the community, 98% of this community are useless moronic leeches, Brawl is dead, Brawl Plus is nothing but a comical mockery of fighting games, and there is so much more you could be doing with your time and effort, you'll feel the need to spit on this game and its players too.

In a way, I agree with you, Ulevo.
You're being realistic. Then again, I'm playing Brawl+ for pure fun.
It's much better than vBrawl, but anyways. The only thing I'm disagreeing with you on is that 'the project will be a failure'.

EDIT: LOL, WOW WAIT. You're saying that because MK was nerfed?!

 

[goodoldganon]

It's a joke, I'm uncertain of why he is in such a bad mood but it is irrelevant to the topic. Let's get back on topic.

 

[Blank Mauser]

This project will be a failure, and the Smash scene is dying. And those who are willing to revive the game, clinging to the past, are those who would do it for what it is they desire, not what is best. Nothing is logical amongst this community, everything is arbitrarily decided or subjectively discussed, with no rhyme or reason. And yet here we are trying to fix a failed creation. It has been nothing more than a waste of my time, and I do assure you, the rest of you are in no different of a position.

Once you realize that top players care nothing for the community, 98% of this community are useless moronic leeches, Brawl is dead, Brawl Plus is nothing but a comical mockery of fighting games, and there is so much more you could be doing with your time and effort, you'll feel the need to spit on this game and its players too.

Sooooo, you got into Guilty Gear?...

Sometimes I think the same way, but the smash scene is far from dead here so I don't keep the attitude long. I can understand the whole frustration over lack of logic, and at times I can't figure why I argue.

I don't always consider top players to need to be involved at all. From what I understood, players are the ones that shape the metagame. The WBR just gives them the tools to do it and lets it go. I thought of it that way for a while and suggested more versatile and open things. The problem with my theory though, is that most people are busy shaping their own metagame in their heads. Changing Brawl+ according to it, whenever something didn't fit or was found too easy or annoying. Reasoning that is entirely subjective sometimes, thrown out to hopefully gain majority.

Not like I don't think that can be changed, just trying to relate.

 

[Vyse]

This project will be a failure, and the Smash scene is dying. And those who are willing to revive the game, clinging to the past, are those who would do it for what it is they desire, not what is best. Nothing is logical amongst this community, everything is arbitrarily decided or subjectively discussed, with no rhyme or reason. And yet here we are trying to fix a failed creation. It has been nothing more than a waste of my time, and I do assure you, the rest of you are in no different of a position.

Once you realize that top players care nothing for the community, 98% of this community are useless moronic leeches, Brawl is dead, Brawl Plus is nothing but a comical mockery of fighting games, and there is so much more you could be doing with your time and effort, you'll feel the need to spit on this game and its players too.

If anything, the smash scene is thriving. We're seeing tournament attendance that far exceeds those seen in the Melee era. Look at the numbers for Genesis. 650 pre-registered!

What exactly are you basing your opinion on?
Brawl is a perfectly tournament viable fighting game, and the numbers behind it agree.

So I don't know what you're talking about

If you don't like smash, then why are you here?

I love this game to death (just as much as its predecessor) and even those who don't particularly like Brawl are devoted enough to attempt to do something about it. I think this is an amazing undertaking and it's developers should be very proud.