G&W in Brawl+

[goodoldganon]

If anything, the smash scene is thriving. We're seeing tournament attendance that far exceeds those seen in the Melee era. Look at the numbers for Genesis. 650 pre-registered!

What exactly are you basing your opinion on?
Brawl is a perfectly tournament viable fighting game, and the numbers behind it agree.

So I don't know what you're talking about

If you don't like smash, then why are you here?

I love this game to death (just as much as its predecessor) and even those who don't particularly like Brawl are devoted enough to attempt to do something about it. I think this is an amazing undertaking and it's developers should be very proud.

I really like you Vyse. I'm glad to see someone who enjoys the original Brawl but also respects Brawl+ as a different avenue to take on a game they love. I really hope both can coexist side by side. Either way we are way off topic guys.

On topic we have discussed G and W in the back room. As of right now his only change is a faster fast fall. His inability to kill well is unfortunate, but he is a brick wall of priority making him very tough to approach. At this moment in time I believe we are satisfied with the way G and W feels but are very open to continued feedback and support.

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, he may be a brick wall of priority, but he still has his counters. Also, due to hitstun, his counters have an easier time hitting him and getting him to dangerous percents.

For being the second lightest character in the game, G&W isn't all that floaty. He gets comboed rather easily, from my experience. Is there any way we can fix this?

And, just for reference, how important was priority in Melee? From what I've heard, G&W had priority back then as well, and was terrible.

 

[Dark Sonic]

G&W's priority was not that good in melee actually, and his moves didn't come out fast and they had quite a bit of ending lag.

Anyway, it's perfctly fine for characters to have bad matchups. At the moment the only thing we can do to make G&W harder to combo is to lower his gravity setting so he goes farther from attacks. The amount of hitstun on said attacks would not change, only the distance he is sent. I'm sure you can figure out the pros and cons of this.

Of course, that would ultimately just push G&W closer to vbrawl's hitstun, which we kind of want to avoid if possible. For right now few people believe G&W is a bad character. Depending on where we put the threshold for buffs (which I'm personally going to push for a lower threashold because I don't want anymore slippery slope buffs), G&W may not get any. After we get a suitable amount of tourney results, we can rebuff bad characters if neccesary. Please know that at this point it will take a lot of evidence to warrent buffing. At that point the game should pretty much be done and the only changes will be to fix game breaking characters or completely unviable characters.

Sorry I went off on a little tangent, but I feel the need to reitterate that sometimes.

 

[shanus]

Don't forget if we lower gravity, he will die earlier which I don't think the G&W players want

 

[CountKaiser]

Okay, so currently the only alteration is a greater FF. How will this help him?

 

[goodoldganon]

Okay, so currently the only alteration is a greater FF. How will this help him?

Better SHFFL game and the key spam is even better then ever. Makes his aerial approaches a little more solid.

 

[Mystic101]

*POST EDIT LOL*

I think that brawl+ G@ W has actually received a serius nerf. He has gained some combo moves and his dtilt gimps some chars on tilted stages and is good for edge gurding. Other than that most things about g&W are worse. It is harder or impossible to tech chase most chars( -1 reliable kill move), his dsmash has been nerfed, and his off edge capability has been greatly gimped, his bair is still a great move it was balenced well.

G&W weakness which is his weight also works agains him alot more now because MANY of chars that now have better killing moves BKB KBG wise. Many chars have an easier time killing now because of decreased degradation which turns many matchups against him. But that does not help G@W as much because his problem is setting up killing moves, not having them(other then f-air). G@W is also easy to combo, and hase a sloW role, both of which are weaknesses that seem to help his glass cannon persona. Combos that do 30-50% are common and that is an easy 1/3-1/2 stock.

vBrawl G&W Another good point that applies to him in general is that while he seems great at first his game can become quite predictable and easy to counter/not get hitby the slow kill moves.

I will talk mild buffs but really im trying to create more diverse G@W gameplay so he doesent end up left in the dust due mostly to general gameplay changes that disadvantage him.


* hammer rebalence*- this move currently is slow punishable and offers little incentive to use

- I think that a #1 should not hurt or do any damage(1%toG&W if he hit) or knowckback but should INSTANTLY BREAK SHEILDS.

- The apple hit #(i forget) should do 12dmg and heal 12 health so it is like a double edged sword your opponent may get ther % back or you will double down or break even or someone will get punished for trying to grab the treat.

-chef speedup X 1.35 so it will be a usefull and reliable stratagy. <--- most agreed/needed move change that would be more like fixing a move instead of buffing him

- mayby slightly reduce the hitstun on him to allow him to use his bucket stall, which he cant most of the time

I actually like the ftilt it has its uses due to its hitbox being higher then dtilt and coming out faster then fsmash or box.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Down Smash is fine. Don't reverse the nerf (it doesn't affect G&W's ability to kill, it just makes a failed kill attempt more punishable).

In Melee G&W had a very cool kill options, one being the parachute (now gone), his Forward air seemed to have less lag when L cancelled than it does now (not sure if this is actually the case), it could combo into itself when shffl'd and was a good kill move for him. The flubbed forward air is a bit too weak. It should be slightly buffed, or the lag at th end of the move should be shortened.

His Up Tilt would combo into itself and other moves, it's knockback and power now make it not so useful to combo into things. His Down Tilt was awesome for comboing into forward air and other moves, and it was a reliable kill move at high percents. The move would hit players up. I vote for altering the knockback of the down tilt to emulate this. This will give G&W kill options, a more varied metagame, and combo ability.

Even G&W users don't take his Side B seriously. That's fine, it's like a Falcon Punch. It really shouldn't be changed. If anything, remove the damage a 1 does to him.

G&W's B move takes too long to wind down to be useful. The food shouldn't fire out faster, but if someone is caught in the food G&W should be able to jump up to get a neutral or forward air in. Right now it takes so long for him to wind down from the move that it leaves him open more times than not. Maybe the startup of the move should be slightly sped up. As always, I advocate a strong hit with the pan. It'd add a unique kill option for G&W. The pan is already very hard to hit with, why not reward the risk properly? (with sped up wind down this might not be necessary).

That's just my 5 cents.

 

[[TSON]]

Even a simple change like making dtilt's launch angle to 10 degrees would open up lots of into-smash combos. Speeding up utilt would also enable some more into-aerial combos.

Those two changes would basically fix the problems I've seen mentioned so far. Not sure if dtilt into key would be too broken though.

 

[skstylez]

sorry if i failed to read past the first post, but game and watch is fine, at times i think too good. of course he can get "combo'd," anyone can. G&W is one of the better ones getting out of it and harder to start him in a combo because of his size, attack range, attack speed, etc. It is no where near what C falcon (big and heavy) experiences when getting easily setup for a chain grab/combo. A few other characters like fox are also heavy, and big characters like ganon are easier to combo precisely. and with G&W great hitstun, attack speed, and smashes, (not to mention edgaurding options) , he is definitely not struggling but higher to the top

 

[Fisherington]

I'd like to see CyberGlitch's Chef suggested implemented, as they sound interesting. This is coming from someone who didn't play Brawl+ vs. other people yet, however.

 

[Mystic101]

Depending on how much of a leeway he is given, it could easily assist the use of bucket braking, and also allow him to flee some combo's.
_____________

Another idea for landing his KO set would be to give his fair a tripping attribute, this way he could box-approach, and sneak into the trip with a hyphen smash, dsmash, or grab, which leads into his techchase (may need to consider increasing his grab range).

I also agree that G&W should be more floaty, and have a swifter top speed considering he has nothing weighing him down.

...Slap on a huge hitbox to the beginning of his 'chute. JK, lol.

the decrease in hitstun seems to be the best idea I have heard of because it would allow him to bucket brake again and avoid some combos 2 things that seriusly nerfed g&w

box tripping on a % basis is interesting but I along with most of the community think his chef is currently not adding as it should to his moveset and should be slightly faster or less endlag

And does anyone know if it is possible to have the bucket(absorption) be able to ALC... jsut an idea