G&W in Brawl+

[kupo15]

I think that tech rolls are speed up too much anyway

 

[Neb]

Being a peach main in brawl+ thats all i know is my opponent living til 150% lol.

But Peach doesn't happen to be one of the lightest characters in the game. Since G&W is a feather weight, he needs to be able to kill considerably early to be viable.

 

[Team Giza]

G&W's dair needs more knockback growth. Either that or it needs to be dropped so it can be made into a more reliable combo move.

 

[cutter]

It is funny how G&W mains have such an opposite opinion compared to the rest of the B+ community.

It's probably because we actually play G&W so we have more of an understanding on what to expect to change in B+.

@ Giza: That sounds like a decent idea. What if G&W had a pillaring game with his Dair ala Melee Falco?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Well, he doesn't exactly have a shine so....

 

[Gindler]

G&W was able to kill people in normal brawl with smashes....infact almost all of G&W kills in vbrawl are from smashes, so why isn't it happening in brawl+?


Maybe make his Dair a better meteor? I don't like playing spikeless characters much (i guess he can spike but even Ivy's is 5x's easier to land)

 

[Hylian]

G&W was able to kill people in normal brawl with smashes....infact almost all of G&W kills in vbrawl are from smashes, so why isn't it happening in brawl+?


Maybe make his Dair a better meteor? I don't like playing spikeless characters much (i guess he can spike but even Ivy's is 5x's easier to land)

Yeah, bad people >_>.

GW has a very hard time landing a smash in vbrawl. It's increadibly hard to hit a good player with a move that has so much start-up time. They don't just jump in when you spam them.

 

[cutter]

You pretty much have to techchase into smashes or just mindgame the opponent into getting hit by one of G&W's smashes hoping they screw up or something like that.

All the more reason to turn G&W's Dtilt back into his Melee Dtilt.

 

[Hylian]

You pretty much have to techchase into smashes or just mindgame the opponent into getting hit by one of G&W's smashes hoping they screw up or something like that.

All the more reason to turn G&W's Dtilt back into his Melee Dtilt.

That would be amazing.

Wow, that would be amazing. Even for normal brawl haha.

 

[goodoldganon]

I love your sig Hylian. Now that that is out of the way...

Let's fix G and W's tech chase game and see where he stands then. I don't think he is nearly as bad as people are making him out to be, but he lost is tech chase game and one of the main goals of B+ is to keep the vB feel.

If I can ask a question to G and W mains: If you could make one move your 'go-to' finisher (the knee would be a good example of one) what would it be?

 

[Gindler]

Yeah that's what I meant, techchasing into an Usmash seemed to work. Even with a teched down throw...

 

[Hylian]

Yeah that's what I meant, techchasing into an Usmash seemed to work. Even with a teched down throw...

That doesn't work on any character unless you guess which direction they are going to tech and start moving before they roll. Or if they spotdodge and you charge.

GW has pretty much no reliable finishers.

 

[goodoldganon]

That doesn't work on any character unless you guess which direction they are going to tech and start moving before they roll. Or if they spotdodge and you charge.

GW has pretty much no reliable finishers.

Exactly, which is why I ask: If you could make one move your go to finisher what would it be? Why?

 

[Dark Sonic]

That doesn't work on any character unless you guess which direction they are going to tech and start moving before they roll. Or if they spotdodge and you charge.

GW has pretty much no reliable finishers.

Replace that with a pivot d-smash. Or a double pivot f-smash (basically, pivot f-smash in the same direction your facing). I think it should work (though the tech speed increase might be more than I'm accounting for here).

 

[Shell]

Please, forgive my ignorance -- help me to understand this.

A quick look at Cutters first post makes it look like his gains match or nearly match his losses in the transition to Brawl+

--Get's comboed
+Gains some "efficient" combos of his own

+less lag on arials makes for even safer approaches, no decay
++Bair is the super good pressure tool we always hoped it would be

--Harder to techchase some characters, others may be impossible

-Smashes have wind-down increased
+Smashes are safe on block, also all smashes can now be used out of dash with dash canceling

Other unmentioned points:
In a game without sweet-spots, GW's recovery, which was previously difficult to punish as it was, is now even better, relatively.

Also, what kill options did G&W lose other than tech-chase U-smash?

Thanks.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Don't forget that pivoting and dash canceling adjust your spacing extremely quickly. So even though techasing might not be as reliable, I can certainly think of how useful a pivot f-smash that's safe on block would be (it's useful for Sonic, that's for sure).

 

[Hylian]

Exactly, which is why I ask: If you could make one move your go to finisher what would it be? Why?

Not sure yet. I would have to think about it before just saying a move lol. I don't really like guesswork.

Replace that with a pivot d-smash. Or a double pivot f-smash (basically, pivot f-smash in the same direction your facing). I think it should work (though the tech speed increase might be more than I'm accounting for here).

Doesn't work, you still have to guess.

Please, forgive my ignorance -- help me to understand this.

A quick look at Cutters first post makes it look like his gains match or nearly match his losses in the transition to Brawl+

Ok.

--Get's comboed
+Gains some "efficient" combos of his own

I don't think you are putting enough importance on how significant it is for GW to be able to be comboed so well considering he is the 2nd lightest character in the game(3rd if you count squirtle). He has NO longevity with combos. He just dies and can't kill nearly fast enough to make up for it.

Not to mention the combos he gained are not that great, as most of them were possible in vbrawl anyways.

+less lag on arials makes for even safer approaches, no decay
++Bair is the super good pressure tool we always hoped it would be

Is bair safe on block now? If you SDI out of bair will you still be in stun? Because bair isn't really that great considering you can just SDI out and punish GW while taking about 5%. On shields it's allright, but they can just roll backwards. In vbrawl they could punish bair OOS easily, not positive on how much shield stun it has in Brawl+. Reguardless, it's a very telegraphed move and pretty easy to avoid.

--Harder to techchase some characters, others may be impossible

Actually it's pretty much impossible to techchase almost all the characters now.

-Smashes have wind-down increased
+Smashes are safe on block, also all smashes can now be used out of dash with dash canceling

All smashes could be used in vbrawl out of a dash with pivoting...Decreasing the cooldown time on GW's smashes is absurd considering his longevity, or lack therefor of.

Other unmentioned points:
In a game without sweet-spots, GW's recovery, which was previously difficult to punish as it was, is now even better, relatively.

His recovery is much worse now...I don't know what you are thinking honestly. No autosweetspot means he has to go really far down to sweetspot, and is prone to edgehogging, and can't use his invincibility frames effectivly when recoverying for fear of being punished on the stage.

Also, what kill options did G&W lose other than tech-chase U-smash?

What kill options did GW have in the first place? Falling nair to dsmash? Sometimes? He didn't have any reliable kill set-ups to begin with, and didn't really gain any either.

Don't forget that pivoting and dash canceling adjust your spacing extremely quickly. So even though techasing might not be as reliable, I can certainly think of how useful a pivot f-smash that's safe on block would be (it's useful for Sonic, that's for sure).

You can do the same in vbrawl lol. It's not that useful. This is coming from someone who played competitve melee since 03. The spacing adjustments are not that significant considering the speed of the game.

 

[Shell]

Hylian, you sound like you're very knowledgeable in GW+. I however, am not.

It would be very helpful to me if you got some fresh GW videos up that illustrated his new strengths and greater weaknesses.

 

[Hylian]

Hylian, you sound like you're very knowledgeable in GW+. I however, am not.

It would be very helpful to me if you got some fresh GW videos up that illustrated his new strengths and greater weaknesses.

I will try, but no promises. It might be awhile, I have a huge tournament to attend this weekende(Whobo) and I will be there for 4 days >_>. Maybe I can get some B+ in with sethlon and record them or something.

It's just that I've mained GW since 1 week after the game came out in IN JAPAN. As soon as the import got here haha. Noticing how changes effect his overall viability comes pretty easily all things considered .

 

[CyberGlitch]

His Down Air is fine...more knockback would make it an overpowered edgeguard tool.

As for ways to appropriately buff him without making him overpowered?
-Give his downtilt Melee knockback trajectory (makes him better at comboing and setting up for finishers)
-Modify his forward tilt (it's currently sometimes useful for tech chasing, but it comes out too slow and stays out too long to actually be useful. If anything, give it higher knockback growth)
-Increase panspike knockback (this is a really unique move that G&W players loved to finish with in Melee, but in Brawl it's too weak to be effectively used in an offensive way)
-Remove self inflicted damage when getting a 1 with the judgement hammer
-Although fixing his down throw to bring back techchasing might help him, it really avoids the real problem which is that all his throws besides his down throw are useless. They have pathetic knockback and don't lead into attacks very well. Furthermore, the moment the opponent is thrown is very easy to predict because of G&W's juggling animation, so very easy Smash DI weakens an already poor throw. When it finally becomes possible, consider modifying the knockback on his throws.


I am very pleased with the nerfs G&W has received, they are very appropriate.

 

[Hylian]

I'm not pleased with your apparent lack of knowledge concerning brawl, considering you can't smash DI throws.


...


Just sayin...


Could you guys make his Dtilt have two different knockback trajectories? For example make the tip of it send them like it does now, and the rest of it send them slightly upward like melee?

Do that and buff the sweetspot on GW's fair to kill well, and possibly the second hit of uair to kill as well would help him tremendously without really making him broken.

 

[Shell]

If the D-tilt has two different hitboxes right now then yes, we can modify them independently.

We can't break it up if there's only one hitbox though, which I suspect to be the case as it's all 6% damage and I haven't heard anyone talk about the tip before.

 

[cutter]

The panspike was a novelty move honestly. Nair, Dtilt, and Fair were better finishers for Melee G&W.

You guys need the understand the concept of a glass cannon. Glass cannons are characters that can barely take any punishment at all (just like how G&W can be comboed to erase entire stocks in B+), but in exchange their damage output and abillity to inflict pain on the other opponent is devastating.

G&W can deal all the damage in the world, but it's not going to matter too much when he would have to use his Fair to kill smart opponents. Fair is a mediocre kill move and it's definately not up to par for a glass cannon character.

In the mean time, this doesn't solve the problem of G&W getting comboed to hell and back in B+. In vBrawl, G&W would take 12-15% on average from one hit and no more additional damage. In B+, G&W will take so much damage from combos that he will already be in kill range in no time. Why is this fair (pun intended) for someone who cannot reliably kill until 130+?

Give G&W the options to kill at low percents, and with extreme reliability and efficiency. Giving G&W his Melee Dtilt (could kill at 110 off the top at frame 6), decreasing the speed on his smashes, and/or increasing the knockback on his Fair and Dair would go a long way to making G&W the glass cannon that we envisioned in the game.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Other unmentioned points:
In a game without sweet-spots, GW's recovery, which was previously difficult to punish as it was, is now even better, relatively.

To me this sounds absolutely backwards for GW. I'm not an expert, but with limited kill setups I tend to get a lot of my finishes over the edge, and undercutting my opponents with GW's recovery is one of his best moves in vBrawl. The godlike amount of time you could stay invulnerable didn't hurt either.

On a side note, maybe reducing the knockback on nair would help GW setup some finishers.

 

[Shell]

Yes, I think was wrong about the recovery, statement retracted -- it isn't better, but I'm under the impression it's still quite solid.

I think CyberGlitch's suggestions are reasonable, for whatever that may be worth.

 

[CyberGlitch]

I'm not pleased with your apparent lack of knowledge concerning brawl, considering you can't smash DI throws.

?!! I have no idea how I could have been misinformed for so long on this. Oh dear, I feel like I n00b now...I'll go crawl in a corner and die...actually, what was I thinking? You can only Smash DI during hitlag...which no throws have...maybe it was normal DI? I remember when others wanted to speed up throw animations (glitches in our code prevented us from actually doing this), I just assumed this was to make Smash DI less easy, but maybe it was only normal DI, could someone explain why?

The Panspike was a novelty, yes, I didn't deny that. It's like a Falcon punch. That doesn't mean it should be ignored. If it pleases G&W players and in no way throws off the balance of the game then a buff should be considered. I am not saying this should be G&W's go to finisher.


I think that it's fair to say G&W's recovery got better relative to the nerfs to other recoveries because of no autosweetspot ledges. I'm having trouble thinking of a character with a recovery better than G&W's...he can get back from above and below without too much trouble...which is a privilege certainly not shared by most the cast.


I have a lot of respect for you Hylian, and I appreciate your fresh look on G&W. I'll be interested with your impressions of Samus, given your history with Samus in Melee.

 

[shanus]

The panspike was a novelty move honestly. Nair, Dtilt, and Fair were better finishers for Melee G&W.

You guys need the understand the concept of a glass cannon. Glass cannons are characters that can barely take any punishment at all (just like how G&W can be comboed to erase entire stocks in B+), but in exchange their damage output and abillity to inflict pain on the other opponent is devastating.

G&W can deal all the damage in the world, but it's not going to matter too much when he would have to use his Fair to kill smart opponents. Fair is a mediocre kill move and it's definately not up to par for a glass cannon character.

In the mean time, this doesn't solve the problem of G&W getting comboed to hell and back in B+. In vBrawl, G&W would take 12-15% on average from one hit and no more additional damage. In B+, G&W will take so much damage from combos that he will already be in kill range in no time. Why is this fair (pun intended) for someone who cannot reliably kill until 130+?

Give G&W the options to kill at low percents, and with extreme reliability and efficiency. Giving G&W his Melee Dtilt (could kill at 110 off the top at frame 6), decreasing the speed on his smashes, and/or increasing the knockback on his Fair and Dair would go a long way to making G&W the glass cannon that we envisioned in the game.

The problem with just speeding up his moves or giving them higher knockback from low %'s is you are immediately going to lose your combo game with said moves and encourage spamming / camping all day long with a character with a brick wall of disjointed priority. The simplest solution to this is obviously a few small move tweaks where you can just increase the knockback growth (not base knockback) significantly. However, I do think you are over dramatizing G&W's difficulties in B+ and he would probably only need 2 of these changes listed below to go from excellent to a whole new level.

Here are some changes which I think could be beneficial to G&W:
-Raise FF speed from 1.1 to 1.2 or 1.3 (greatly enhance SHFFLs, key speed, etc)
-Speed up the winddown of downthrow
-Case KBG (Knockback growth) raised dramatically with a more horizontal launch angle
-If possible: Dtilt, edge horizontal launch angle, interior raise KBG & Base KB

 

[CountKaiser]

Why don't we allow him to combo into a finisher? You could decrease startup time, then increase winddown to prevent it from being spammy.

 

[Finns7]

I dont see problems with gaw. He is not as mobile as other chars, but he still has his short size. I say utilt should have a little cooldown lag so he can combo with it, dtilt idea is ok but not to the point of it being broken and dumb. This buff brings Luigi's dtilt to mind but Luigi's range is shorter, Gaw's dtilt has bigger range so the "assisted **** combo" shouldnt be that big, they should be pretty close.

 

[Gindler]

Give G&W the options to kill at low percents, and with extreme reliability and efficiency. Giving G&W his Melee Dtilt (could kill at 110 off the top at frame 6), decreasing the speed on his smashes, and/or increasing the knockback on his Fair and Dair would go a long way to making G&W the glass cannon that we envisioned in the game.

When you say low percents I think 80%....that's a bit low for a character with all disjointed attacks to be killing at, if you meant low as in 100(ish) then yeah I can see that.

Why don't we allow him to combo into a finisher? You could decrease startup time, then increase winddown to prevent it from being spammy.

Making it a better finisher but more punishable on whiff/block. I like this idea

 

[CountKaiser]

When you say low percents I think 80%....that's a bit low for a character with all disjointed attacks to be killing at, if you meant low as in 100(ish) then yeah I can see that.

80ish is a bit ridiculous. 90-100 range seems better.

 

[Neb]

When you say low percents I think 80%....that's a bit low for a character with all disjointed attacks to be killing at, if you meant low as in 100(ish) then yeah I can see that.

G&W in vBrawl could kill around 75-90%, depending on which smash he used, but he lacked set-ups, so he usually got off kills somewhere in the hundreds. It kinda sounds a little far-fetched for Brawl+, a more offensive game where racking up damage is easier. But I think he should be able to pull off a KO as early as 90.

 

[Deleted member]

So, basically, G&W is missing the "cannon" part of his "glass cannon" style?

 

[Finns7]

Gaw is a edguarding beast, I really dont think he needs much.

 

[CountKaiser]

Gaw is a edguarding beast, I really dont think he needs much.

We aren't really asking for much. We want a reliable way for G&W to kill. Relying on edgeguards isn't fitting for a glass cannon character.

Being that I play competent opponents, it's nigh impossible for me to land a smash on them, and thus, with good DI, they live to 130-140 on a regular basis, outlasting me, on average, by 40%. Its frustrating, it really is.

 

[goodoldganon]

-Raise FF speed from 1.1 to 1.2 or 1.3 (greatly enhance SHFFLs, key speed, etc)
-Speed up the winddown of downthrow
-Case KBG (Knockback growth) raised dramatically with a more horizontal launch angle

Let's concentrate on those three for the time being. Shanus already gave reasons for the first change, but the second change helps his tech chase game (which he lost) and the Case/Pizzabox should give him a more reliable finisher at high levels.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You can do the same in vbrawl lol. It's not that useful. This is coming from someone who played competitve melee since 03. The spacing adjustments are not that significant considering the speed of the game.

It is much less effective in vBrawl. The pivoting window is much, much larger now (to the point that you're actually able to dodge attacks and still be able to pivot), and dash canceling....exists now.

And this is coming from someone who has played competitive melee since 04. Spacing adjustments are extremely important considering the speed of the game. For characters who have decent range and disjointed moves, spacing is very important. The reason pivoting was not used so much in melee was because wavedashing gave the same benefits at only a small frame disadvantage. Dash canceling on the other hand was used quite often.

The only characters that didn't really rely heavily on spacing were characters with solid shield pressure games or high priority approaches (Fox's nairplane, Falco's pillar, ect.) Sheik and Marth rely heavily on outspacing those characters. Pivot grabs are a staple of any Marth's gameplay, not just for doing the chaingrab, but also for just grabbing characters out of attacks.

 

[Finns7]

I still dont see how he cant kill

Are we going in that direction with gaw, the glass canon type? Is it good for smash? Im definetaly going to play around with him to see what works best

 

[CountKaiser]

Theoretically, everyone can kill.

How reliably they can kill, however, differs vastly.

G&W does not have a reliable combo into an effective killer. All he has is fair, which has its killing potential ***** by DI.

And I'll say it again, against a competent opponent, its absurdly hard to land a smash attack. This was the case in vBrawl as well.

Glass cannon is currently what fits him best. He has all the tools, he just can't get them off effectively. As a glass cannon character, not only should he have strong killers, but he should be able to get them off reliably. If he can't do the latter, then he really isn't a cannon, he's simply made of glass.

 

[Hylian]

It is much less effective in vBrawl. The pivoting window is much, much larger now (to the point that you're actually able to dodge attacks and still be able to pivot), and dash canceling....exists now.

And this is coming from someone who has played competitive melee since 04. Spacing adjustments are extremely important considering the speed of the game. For characters who have decent range and disjointed moves, spacing is very important. The reason pivoting was not used so much in melee was because wavedashing gave the same benefits at only a small frame disadvantage. Dash canceling on the other hand was used quite often.

The only characters that didn't really rely heavily on spacing were characters with solid shield pressure games or high priority approaches (Fox's nairplane, Falco's pillar, ect.) Sheik and Marth rely heavily on outspacing those characters. Pivot grabs are a staple of any Marth's gameplay, not just for doing the chaingrab, but also for just grabbing characters out of attacks.

I can pivot 100% in vbrawl. Small pivots, true pivots, anything. Making the window larger just makes it easier...that doesn't change it's usefulness.

And every character relied heavily on spacing in melee. You have to space Falcos pillar so that the shine hits them or they grab you yeah? It's generally considered best to cross up your opponents shield with fox's nairplane yeah? Of course spacing is important, I would never argue differently.

I don't even know what you are trying to argue or what I'm trying to prove actually. How does dash canceling and a larger pivot window relate to GW in Brawl+?

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