Full Stage List Striking - New name

[Yikarur]

SuSa did you undergo the "fight" in the ruleset topic? over50 pages and more was full of insults and more to the BBR because the Stagelist was garbage for the most.
Thats the reasons why there is a "v3.1" with CP Categorization.
the BBR doesn't give us the norm, TOs giving norm actually because they still decide which Stage Set they use regardless of BBR Ruleset or not.

 

[chaosmaster1991]

EDIT:
@Chaos
You don't know the location of the item spawn. That's the largest issue I see with it. Also I do believe that there is a method behind the madness of YI's Brawl ghosts - and I want to look at it's stage data to prove this.

Apparently there are some predefined zones in which they can spawn, not sure... but anyway, I'll leave this here, dunno if someone's interested:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=64514

 

[SuSa]

SuSa did you undergo the "fight" in the ruleset topic? over50 pages and more was full of insults and more to the BBR because the Stagelist was garbage for the most.
Thats the reasons why there is a "v3.1" with CP Categorization.
the BBR doesn't give us the norm, TOs giving norm actually because they still decide which Stage Set they use regardless of BBR Ruleset or not.

The BBR gives a standard, which many TO's modify to some extent (some more than others) which becomes the norm for their respective regions.

It still creates an influential standard.

:leek:

 

[Yikarur]

thats not true.
It's not hard to make an own "standard", you talk like every TO is BBR dependent.

 

[Omni]

when it's exactly the opposite

good luck on your ventures, Susa

 

[Raziek]

And you talk like they're BBR INdependent.

Many TOs look directly to the recommended ruleset for guidance, especially at smaller tourneys.

I'm gonna to see if I can do something with full striking (Since, you know, I'm a TO), but I already have a lot on my plate with testing Skyworld, Green Hill, Onett, Mario Circuit and Customs, so it will have to wait.

 

[SuSa]

when it's exactly the opposite

good luck on your ventures, Susa

So why is the BBR around.

Answer me that, because I'm apparently not getting it.

E-peen?

:leek:

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A lot of people look at the BBR rule set as some sort of bizarre minimum. They'll automatically ban anything the BBR bans but take the liberty to ban more things the BBR doesn't ban. I remember Corneria just stopped appearing around here after the BBR banned it, but then when the BBR recommends, say, Norfair legal, no one gives them the time of day. Some people just really love banning stuff...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ok I think I'm done here.

Talk got either stupid or turned into subject I won't talk about.

If people want this idea to fly do something about it.

 

[John12346]

Maybe we should move this back to Tactical? It's not really getting a lot of exposure over here in Stage discussion... Maybe the BBR could consider opening up a Counterpick System Discussion and/or a Metaknight Discussion. It'd definitely be a few steps in the right direction, anyway...

Also, I'm kinda getting lost among all the debating, so I wanna get back on track with a small list that reminds me who's on which side.

Pro-Stage Change: John12346
Anti-Stage Change:
Pro-MK Ban: John12346
Anti-MK Ban:

Don't give any reasoning behind your side, just take the most recent list and toss your name into the appropriate 2 categories, separated with a comma and a space. Don't dedicate an entire post to filling in the list either; just throw it in at the end of one of your long, debatey posts.

 

[SuSa]

I don't see why this matters.

Pro-Stage Change: John12346, SuSa
Anti-Stage Change:
Pro-MK Ban: John12346
Anti-MK Ban: SuSa

:leek:

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Pro-Stage Change: John12346, SuSa
Anti-Stage Change: Red Ryu
Pro-MK Ban: John12346, Red Ryu
Anti-MK Ban: SuSa

 

[John12346]

I don't see why this matters.

As I said, this is simply for my own interests. I'm having trouble keeping up with what everyone's saying, and this seems like the quickest way to streamline the purposes behind everyone's arguments for me.

Which is also why I requested entire posts weren't dedicated to this, but rather at the end of a long post, to avoid derailment.

 

[SuSa]

I had nothing else to comment about and am waiting for Omni to tell me why the BBR exists.

He said "it's exactly the opposite" which implies:

• The BBR doesn't do jack ****
• The BBR should be abolished completely, as they don't do jack **** and it's just an ego boost/way to keep track of top players/knowledgeable players whom we all pretty much know by name regardless of being in the BBR.

Which anyone else, mind you, would say is complete bull****.

:leek:

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Pro-Stage Change: John12346, SuSa
Anti-Stage Change: Red Ryu, rPSI
Pro-MK Ban: John12346, Red Ryu, rPSI
Anti-MK Ban: SuSa

 

[Omni]

you seem angry, Susa. u mad?

i'm not going to tell you what it implies since you already seem to have your own definition ingrained in your mind. if u cant figure out the direct meaning behind it idk why you're wasting your time talking about trying to change the game

i'll spell it out for you one more time: you do not need the BBR in order to get your ideas across to the community. if it's good enough people will listen and follow

now get over your hissy fit, dude. for some one who wants to deliver a message you have a very childish way of trying to deliver it. if you have more questions about the BBR just PM me or MASH (Marc, Ankoku, Shaya, or AlphaZealot). actually just go ahead and pm MASH if want to understand better what the BBR represents and what we do

stay on topic. your thread isn't half bad so lets not deter people away and turn it into another conversation

 

[SuSa]

Wow... can you please provide me a reason for the existence of the BBR?

That's all I'm asking for, and you're refusing to answer the question - but rather avoid it.

I mean... it's a pretty crucial point to my entire argument about changing the community and everything.. it's kind of the center stage for the argument. So please do tell....

:leek:

 

[John12346]

i'll spell it out for you one more time: you do not need the BBR in order to get your ideas across to the community. if it's good enough people will listen and follow

Uh, Omni, I don't want to sound rude or anything, but... I would imagine Susa would have a very hard time issuing his ideas to the public, considering they were locked or moved to this forum by a BBR/Staff hybrid. I really don't want to sound pushy or anything, but I think Susa efforts were made significantly more difficult in this regard. I understand creating a social group is also a viable option, but let's face it, getting publicity for one of those is hard as crap.

I know you're probably not planning to do so or anything, and like I said before, I don't want to impose on you or any of the BBR, but I would highly suggest opening up discussions for the Counterpick System and MAYBE Meta-Knight in the Tactical boards, considering the influx of people who want to talk about it more openly.

 

[Jack Kieser]

SuSa, stop taking the bait. It's pointless, dude. The BBR exists to create competitive standards that the rest of the community will then alter for preference and region. That's it. They act as an overhead system, trying to amplify "intelligent" and "competitive" discussion and mute random trolling by making an exclusive group of TOs, top players, strategists, and competitive philosophers.

That's their job. To make threads and invite the supposed "best and brightest" of SWF to debate, then come up with a ruleset every year to give the community focus and direction without being a dictatorship.

The problem, of course, is when a BBR member says that he has no influence. Because, let's face it, if I'm Omni, and I post a thread, and the BBR either ignores it or goes "lolOmni, who listens to him", either I need to be dropped, or someone else does. Either way, if there is a group like the BBR, and every single member isn't an equal, then the group is being run improperly. If anything, I'd expect Omni to be mad, since he's essentially a fake member who has no influence. That is, if I'm reading him correctly.

I'd expect Hylian, Pierce, or AA not to listen to me, because I don't have a purple name; I'm not in the "exclusive" group. So, either Omni is in the BBR, but is being treated like trash and is telling SuSa to do all of this on his own because Omni would like to, but is just getting screwed in the BBR, or he actually does have pull and influence, and just isn't bringing it up in the BBR because he doesn't think people should be given the choice to have a truly fair round 1.

...is that about right?

Oh, and I'm pro-full stage striking and anti-ban. So, yeah.

 

[Akaku94]

Pro-Stage Change: John12346, SuSa, Akaku94
Anti-Stage Change: Red Ryu, rPSI
Pro-MK Ban: John12346, Red Ryu, rPSI, Akaku94
Anti-MK Ban: SuSa

More later... you know, probably... and I'm not against starting a group; at least it's a good start, and moving this back to tactical would help, too, since this isn't so much about the stages themselves as it is about the CP system.

 

[SuSa]

SuSa, stop taking the bait. It's pointless, dude. The BBR exists to create competitive standards that the rest of the community will then alter for preference and region. That's it. They act as an overhead system, trying to amplify "intelligent" and "competitive" discussion and mute random trolling by making an exclusive group of TOs, top players, strategists, and competitive philosophers.

That's their job. To make threads and invite the supposed "best and brightest" of SWF to debate, then come up with a ruleset every year to give the community focus and direction without being a dictatorship.

The problem, of course, is when a BBR member says that he has no influence.

Almost precise.

Except it's a larger problem when it comes to influence when the BBR themselves say they have no influence. They shrug it off as "well the community can do whatever they god**** please in the end"

Which if that truly was the case The BBR just serves as an EGO BOOSTER. Which I'd like to NOT think is the case. I may think lowly of them, but I don't think THAT lowly of them.

Interesting.

Keep the trolls out eh?

:leek:

 

[John12346]

Pro-Stage Change: John12346, SuSa, Akaku94, Jack Keiser
Anti-Stage Change: Red Ryu, rPSI, Omni
Pro-MK Ban: John12346, Red Ryu, rPSI, Akaku94
Anti-MK Ban: SuSa, Jack Keiser, Omni

Just updating the to reflect Jack, and that I'm pretty sure I know where Omni stands.

Omni, please at the very least, read my suggestion above.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Jack and Susa, you both know better than to make claims like that.

 

[SuSa]

Just stating exactly how it comes off.

BBR does stuffs.
BBR says they have no influence.
BBR continues to do stuffs.

Why? It's ****ing pointless if you have NO INFLUENCE OVER THE COMMUNITY LIKE YOU SAY YOU DO.

At that point it should just be another one of those social groups. You know. Those things nobody cares two ****s for? I want them to admit that what they say and do influences the community. I'm not so stupid as to say they don't - and I'm surprised it's what they all seem to claim.

"Well if the community wants it, they have to _________ and ___________ and _________________________________________________"

Well step 1 to the community seeking change:
1) Present it to the BBR with supporting evidence and details
2) If declined, few will take their suggestion seriously.
3) ???
4) Failure

Point me to a major case that didn't end exactly like the above?

:leek:

 

[Jack Kieser]

SuSa nailed it. We're simply pointing out the inherent contradictions in what Omni is trying to claim, both about his position within the BBR and the group as a whole. The BBR is OBVIOUSLY influential, and as SuSa said, convincing a BBr member of something is often a first step towards larger changes, ALONGSIDE convincing TOs and some top players. Luckily, a few TOs have already been convinced in this thread (myself included, once I get my god**** job started :anger:), so all that's left is to present the case to the BBR and have them argue pros and cons.

If someone in the BBR actually presented the information and arguments in this thread, we have no doubt that a rational and working BBR would add expanded striking to round 1 counterpick play. But, no one wants to be held accountable for that, because, let's face it, it's a political move. No one wants to have the kind of hate the v3 ruleset generated to be aimed at him because he presented a full stage striking system to the BBR for consideration, so it's easier to just say "it's not my problem, SuSa, you deal with it"...

...even though it's expressly the BBR's job, and pretty much their only job, to debate ruleset changes just like this one.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why should he help with something he doesn't agree with?

 

[DMG]

LGL. I can't think of a time where the BBR recommended a LGL, and look where that is today. That's the only real case of something widespread adopted at tournaments (even at MLG) that the BBR didn't suggest or recommend doing.

Everything else has been basically hacked versions of the game, or debates over including items.

The BBR has influence. At this point, it's very small. Most Major TO's at this point do what they want. Alex Strife announces a tournament, we ask him "Hey are you gonna take off a LGL or add Green Greens to the stage list?" He says No, few months later block buster 200+ man tournament takes off and is a huge success.

BBR makes recommendations based on what we think is best. At this point though, People don't want to hear what the BBR thinks lol. Look at Ripple's sig: "BBR SAYS SOMETHING !!!!!!!!!!!! DON'T CARE" While that is amusing, it's also accurately explains how a lot of people feel about the group at this point.

It's not "Oh well the BBR added Pirate Ship and Green Greens to the stage list, I disagree with that addition", it's "Oh, the BBR posted something? I don't care". That kind of attitude is prevalent in the community, at least nowadays. MLG starting up also didn't help the backroom influence wise: our ruleset has some noticeable differences than the MLG ruleset, but at the end of the day we all know people will use MLG rulesets at their tournaments to prepare their players for a MLG caliber tournament.

 

[SuSa]

I am not saying that TO's will follow your standards exactly down to the point.. of course they may add things and remove other things, but it is a standard to base off of.

Will they have come to something similar without this sort of guidance? Answer is perhaps... we'll never know and there is little to no point hypothesizing.

You also contradicted yourself a bit.... saying the BBR has influence, small amounts, but nobody listens or cares.

Obviously - even if it's only in small amounts - people care. A large portion of the community "not caring" is due to questionable choices, double standards, and "we pull up our previous rules only when it's beneficial to the changes the majority of us want".

If so few people care.... why even bother? If you want high leveled players discussing things, go make a social group - invite only - and add the current BBR members. Unsticky your "oh so uninfluential" rules and tier list, and just call it a day. You know.. what you're telling everyone else to do?

The argument from the BBR against my changes is "Convince the majority" when they can't themselves. What makes them any different from my position? Or you all not just throwing out rather abstract changes to the game in hoping it takes light? The difference being you're (usually) more known and are likely good at this game?

[There are many BBR players I've never even heard of... I'm going to assume they are TO's or something who tend to fly under the radar when it comes to popularity]

Because from your current stance, you seem no different than me except a purple name and a few more placings. Do you need a group to say you've placed better than me? Nope, the community knows it because they hear your name in those top results at large tournaments (or even locals if they keep up with scenes) more often than they here mine. With the amount of ad hominem that happens in this community as well, no matter how well I do in my scene unless I'm placing Top8 at nationals or have a purple name, my word is jack ****.

PS:
You don't see me applying for the BBR because my current stance is very against their existence. Especially their intermingling with staff....

:leek:

 

[gallax]

Its not like we are all twiddling our thumbs back there also. This issue about public relations has come up and we are trying to find a way to help the situation. But i want to point something out thats interesting. Everyone says how the bbr has so much influence on the community, which i could agree with. But, when we come out with rules concerning stages or LGL no ones listens or follows our lead. If we really had that much influence dont you think TO's would be more willing to follow the ruleset we come out with?

 

[Life]

Pro-Stage Change: John12346, SuSa, Akaku94, Jack Keiser, InferiorityComplex
Anti-Stage Change: Red Ryu, rPSI, Omni
Pro-MK Ban: John12346, Red Ryu, rPSI, Akaku94
Anti-MK Ban: SuSa, Jack Keiser, Omni

Neutral on MK ban, absolutely against banning MK-ban discussion tho.

One of these for BPC ruleset would be cool (Bo9-ish, 1 stock, food on medium/high, full-list or large-list striking).

Also, regarding BBR members not wanting to get flamed...
...the signup thread is thataway -----------> closed <_<

 

[SuSa]

The points where you concern rulings are things that become subjective to the extremes.

I've had people argue with me that even the most minor CP stages shouldn't be allowed due to their effects of a match. This will change depending on the region and community. Does it mean the BBR shouldn't at the very least support it?

You don't change your suggestions based on community wants (to some extent) and you've shown that. I didn't even think there was a movement (or a person who gave 2 ****s) about the Ganon/Bowsersuicide rule being in place, but you removed it. To be honest - it shouldn't have existed in the first place, but you corrected yourself by removing it. Does the community agree with this? It seems not, especially seeing as how the results are (seemingly random) for Ganon, and decided by port for Bowser. Ganon can only hope for a loss or a draw at best...

In fact... now that I think about it... would this rule force a Tiebreaker match? Much like the result of timing out on same stock + same percent? If so that's kind of funny to think about, considering sometimes it will result in a loss and other times it will result in a tiebreaker....

But uhm.. I strayed from the topic at hand.

Point is the BBR should base their rules on the precedents they have come up with, and logical arguments as to why things aren't/are allowed coupled with criteria. The community should only become a factor when it is in extreme majority. Such as a "99.99% of the community feels this way, but theres ALWAYS those few people who are against anything" deals....

No matter what you do there will always be a faction against it.

You cannot please everyone.

But that doesn't mean throw your own precedents out the window and favor the community. (EG: Stage Lists, Counterpicks, and other such things)

Just sorting stages into "Legal" and "Banned" is enough. Let the TO's pick what "Legal" stages are Starters, which ones are CP's, and which ones are "Not Allowed" in their tournaments. In fact... this would likely cause FAR LESS DEBATE over the matter in your thread.

Because I don't see a criteria for the separation of the 3 counterpick levels... nor counterpicks from starters.

Off to Panda Express for some fooooods.

:leek:

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Pro-Stage Change: John12346, SuSa, Akaku94, Jack Keiser
Anti-Stage Change: Red Ryu, rPSI, Omni, Niddo
Pro-MK Ban: John12346, Red Ryu, rPSI, Akaku94, Niddo
Anti-MK Ban: SuSa, Jack Keiser, Omni

I can see the theory behind the full stage strike system (if that is the change we're still discussing...it's getting kinda hard to follow at this point), but I honestly don't see it working. You'd have to have a uniformly agreed on stage list, otherwise what's the "least bias" stage for a MU in one area, will be completely different from the "least bias" stage in another area. Tournaments will in fact take slightly longer, depending on the number of stages used, and how many rounds are in the tournament, and Brawl already has a time issue in tournaments.

I think having a 9 starter list with lots of CPs is a much more reasonable route to take, and a lot easier to convince other regions to try out. I believe that 9 starters is enough to get a fairly "neutral" stage for the vast majority of MUs once you take out MK. The larger lists of CPs allows for greater ease in seeing who is truly more viable when it comes to characters. Feel free to make it 2 or 3 stage bans if you think that's the way to go.

As for the BBR derail here: honestly Omni, I don't think your helping dude. If you want to help the BBR's rep with the public, you're going to have to be a lot more open when discussing stuff, and drop the insults/troll like comments (such as "u mad?") of any kind, as much fun as insults can be.

 

[gallax]

Point is the BBR should base their rules on the precedents they have come up with, and logical arguments as to why things aren't/are allowed coupled with criteria. The community should only become a factor when it is in extreme majority. Such as a "99.99% of the community feels this way, but theres ALWAYS those few people who are against anything" deals....

This is exactly how the bbr works. You have to be able to make a point AND back it up with a logical response that has a a factual base. If you are back there and just say "This stage should be legal" your vote is not counted. You must provide logical reasoning for every single idea.

 

[Raziek]

Pro-Stage Change: John12346, SuSa, Akaku94, Jack Keiser, InferiorityComplex, Raziek
Anti-Stage Change: Red Ryu, rPSI, Omni, Niddo
Pro-MK Ban: John12346, Red Ryu, rPSI, Akaku94, Raziek, Niddo
Anti-MK Ban: SuSa, Jack Keiser, Omni

 

[JayBee]

^ This.



lo@ Kojin's sig, agreed, although naturally for the sake of those who genuinely want to use MK because of the character rather than because he wins, I would think those who are given the option would much rather just find a way to balance him.

that's not really possible. If anything the rules that have been added has shown is that players will adapt and make it potentially even harder to regulate a character with debilitating rules. IMO we've probably wasted a lot of time trying to find ways around it rather than dealing with it directly, but I know what you mean. If I had stock in metaknight as a player I'd rather wed try anything so long as i get to play him. I just dont think that's possible.

 

[Life]

Raziek you forgot Niddo.

 

[JayBee]

btw susa if you feel like you need more exposure for these things you could try a podcast or post some videos on Youtube with links to this thread for additional information. Its only going to help you out . The Pro-ban side did something similar and it was quite interesting and informative.

 

[Ripple]

BBR makes recommendations based on what we think is best. At this point though, People don't want to hear what the BBR thinks lol. Look at Ripple's sig: "BBR SAYS SOMETHING !!!!!!!!!!!! DON'T CARE" While that is amusing, it's also accurately explains how a lot of people feel about the group at this point.

It's not "Oh well the BBR added Pirate Ship and Green Greens to the stage list, I disagree with that addition", it's "Oh, the BBR posted something? I don't care". That kind of attitude is prevalent in the community, at least nowadays. MLG starting up also didn't help the backroom influence wise: our ruleset has some noticeable differences than the MLG ruleset, but at the end of the day we all know people will use MLG rulesets at their tournaments to prepare their players for a MLG caliber tournament.

that's actually not my sig DMG, it's OOK's.

and yeah no one wants to listen to the BBR because most of them also don't know how to interact with the community.

P13rce I had a big problem with because during his "session" to talk with the community about the BBR on goings was not the BBR's view, it was his own.

I asked about MK being banned ( why not ask?) and he gave me the answer of " MK will not be banned because he has proven not to be a threat at MLG". I was confused since MLG was NOT using official rules suggested by the BBR. such a difference in rules cause skewed perception among even the best. of course if you add a LGL of 35 MK won't be bannable, but NO LGL? MK is nearly unstoppable. why would you base your claim off something that isn't even something your group supports?

this makes me mad

 

[SuSa]

This is exactly how the bbr works. You have to be able to make a point AND back it up with a logical response that has a a factual base. If you are back there and just say "This stage should be legal" your vote is not counted. You must provide logical reasoning for every single idea.

And nowhere is there any factual basis for the current starter list.

There is SOME logic to it, but it has flaws.

One should not need to argue for a stage to be LEGAL - rather the contrary. It is up to the other's to prove it should be ILLEGAL; which is where these flaws are coming from. Why do I say this? I again point to the MK ban. It is up to Pro-Ban to show why Mk should be banned and for the Anti-Ban to refute the points and data to state why he shouldn't. This exact burden of proof should be held for ANY ban or limitation ON ANYTHING; including stages!

As far as criteria and such go, the splitting of counterpicks into 3 groups doesn't make much sense... I can go back to the ruleset thing to see what exactly was the reasoning for that and how it was done... but... yeah...

btw susa if you feel like you need more exposure for these things you could try a podcast or post some videos on Youtube with links to this thread for additional information. Its only going to help you out . The Pro-ban side did something similar and it was quite interesting and informative.

Considering I have a mic... this might actually be possible now that I think about it. Why I didn't think of this before? I don't know... but I'll look into it and thanks for bringing it up.

It seems I had more supporters in person anyways (partly because I could show it to them in practice...)

:leek:

 

[BSP]

I'm kinda with Susa on this one...not that my opinion really matters anyway, but just saying. I've seen BBR members say they don't have influence even though they do....I'm confused now. Really what's the point?

I've read this entire thing and I hope it keeps going. Any of the pro-change people aren't going to get anywhere unless you start doing something offline...but even then you probably won't change the majority anyway.

And I've seen so many giant walls of text on things pretty dang relevant to brawl, and only like...2 or 3 of the BBR has even had any input...where are the other members? Aren't they supposed to be leading on these issues or something?