Frame Cancel

[Azazel]

pro-landing lag or pro-lag for short

prefix pro-

1. Earlier; before; prior to
2. a prefix of priority in space or time

Falco got pro-lag on his Dair so Usmash combos

Also pro is short for professionsal, only pros can consistently get pro-lag on their aerials

 

[Shaya]

Just like we say Perfect Pivots, we could call this Perfect Landings or Perfect Landing Cancel?

 

[Lavani]

It isn't a smash term without cancel in the name!

Perfect Landing sounds nice.

 

[Signia]

lmao, only in 2015 would smashers argue over a name rather than figure out uses for the technique..

We already did argue over the uses. It's obvious that it's good for punishing, for example.

Or are you saying that in the past we let stupid terms become common? Because we definitely did (lmao "IASA").

Just Frame and Frame Synch sound cool and all, but nobody's going to know what that means or how it's done by hearing the word. Or even what is being referred to.

Low Aerial Landing, Aerial Attack Landing, Grounding Aerial, Smoother Landing, First Frame Aerial Landing all could work.

 

[Signia]

The glitch probably occurs due to how 2D platforming collision detection often works, where if the character's position and velocity is such that, if allowed, the character will clip through the floor on the next frame, the game will correct it by placing the character on the ground. What probably happens is that after the ground collision position correction, the character's state is set to grounded, and then I'd guess that this state change triggers the appropriate landing animation. However, this correction occurs long before the hit pause has ended, so there's some quirk about how the game handles animation trigger stacking that causes both animations to play at the same time, but choosing to show the hit pause frames instead of the first few landing animation frames.

Something people already have guessed the animation priority going on, but it probably has to do with the way the game corrects collisions.

 

[StellarSTLR]

I'm just going to assume that once your feet touch the ground hit lag stops and landing lag begins.

Calling it Jump Hit Cancel until you all decide on a name. lol

 

[Ffamran]

Or we could call it a Just Land, like a Just Frame except with landing.

 

[san.]

Landing aerial works fine with me.

 

[mega4000]

pro-landing lag or pro-lag for short

prefix pro-

1. Earlier; before; prior to
2. a prefix of priority in space or time

Falco got pro-lag on his Dair so Usmash combos

Also pro is short for professionsal, only pros can consistently get pro-lag on their aerials

Can Megaman do the frame cancel with one of his moves? could you give me a combo example?

 

[BBC7]

Is this actually frame-perfect for every move? I'm consistently landing Falcon Dair into U-Smash against Dedede at 80%, but struggling to land Ganondorf Dair into U-Smash against Fox at 30%.

 

[Balgorxz]

Is this actually frame-perfect for every move? I'm consistently landing Falcon Dair into U-Smash against Dedede at 80%, but struggling to land Ganondorf Dair into U-Smash against Fox at 30%.

I have the same question, overlapping falco dair lag is too easy compared to other moves

 

[Unclesatan]

for the people making note that this is very hard to do consistently, i played against a ZSS very recently who was using this with her nair into other combos and she used it CONSISTENTLY without fail in her approaches if she caught me off guard without my shield. this is very possible to use in an actual match and it's very very very frustrating to fight against. even against my shield she had plenty of options, so again i stress that this is actually a very viable tech to use in actual matches from my own observations.

i also played against a falco who landed it semi-consistently, and once again my shield helped alot but it wasn't the end-all answer to the tech, as he could perfect pivot directly out of his dair and grab me or space himself away from me. i don't understand that much because from what i've seen people are saying it doesn't work on shield, but there were multiple times where he did it and perfect pivoted upon landing with absolutely no landing frame animation.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Just stick perfect with everything..
Perfect Pivot (PP), Perfect Landing (PL), and Perfect Slide (PS).

 

[Lavani]

I have the same question, overlapping falco dair lag is too easy compared to other moves

Meanwhile I have to try forever to manage a Falco dair perfect landing on 1/2x, while ZSS nair and Robin uair/bair I managed multiple times playing Classic 9.0 when finishing it up with the entire cast.

I'm rather certain at this point that it's frame perfect, though I'm still not sure what causes the distinction between which frame of hitlag you land on.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Could it have something to do with aerials moving your character's model closer towards or further away from the ground? Just thinking out loud at this stage.

 

[Lavani]

Do characters still have collision detection during hitstun/hitlag?

Or rather, could it be that your opponent being hit and jumbling around during hitstun is pushing you down to the ground?

If so, that actually would mean this isn't possible vs shield, too...

 

[Linkshot]

Ugh, so we might be getting PUSHED into the ground during hitlag? I think that collision is turned off in this case, though.

 

[Signia]

Falco falls fast. Like I said, it probably has to do with a bugged edge case where ground collision correction occurs at the same time as a hit. The faster the velocity, the higher the character can be while still having a chance to be in a situation where they'd clip through the ground on the next frame if the game doesn't correct the character's position.

If this is indeed the way they handle ground collisions and transitions to the grounded state, which is very typical, this correction triggers every time someone is grounded. But faster falling characters would then have a bigger window because higher speeds means more possible positions that result in the correction, and so you can be higher up when hitting the aerial.

But this is just a possible explanation for this glitch and why it might be easier for Falco. It also would mean that the faster a character falls, the easier it will be to hit aerials in a way that in the next frame they'd clip through, triggering the correction, and triggering the glitch.

 

[MartinAW4]

Just like we say Perfect Pivots, we could call this Perfect Landings or Perfect Landing Cancel?

I like that name, it`s short, simple and gives us a clear idea what the technique is about. "Perfect" tells us that it requires very precise or maybe even frame perfect timing. "Landing" tells us that it is performed while landing. And since Perfect Landing (PL) will always be mentioned with an aerial, like PL Dair or PL Nair, people will also know that they have to land perfectly while performing an aerial attack. They will almost know how to perform the technique just by hearing the name.

 

[kupo15]

Do characters still have collision detection during hitstun/hitlag?

Or rather, could it be that your opponent being hit and jumbling around during hitstun is pushing you down to the ground?

If so, that actually would mean this isn't possible vs shield, too...

It would seem as though the attacking character still has collision detection, not the hurt person otherwise getting jumbled around in hitlag would trigger a collision with the floor.

And I'm pretty sure your theory that the hitlag person is "pushing" you into the ground is not possible because once you are in the air, no player can "push" you or occupy the same space you do like you do on the ground. This means that it should be possible to do this against a shield.

Could it have something to do with aerials moving your character's model closer towards or further away from the ground? Just thinking out loud at this stage.

I don't think so. I think it merely has to do with the game checking your position like it does normally and thinking you are on the ground even though you aren't. It might have something to do with the devs checking these events in the wrong order:

collision > movement code > attack connecting/hitlag (disabling movement)

As you saw in the falcon gif comparison, the first frame of hitlag Falcon was still in the air, then the next frame he was on the floor in landing lag which means that Falcon was already on the floor on that first frame of hitlag (while in the air) but the game didn't display him on the ground because the collision code was out of order

So this technique all comes down to correct timing. Hitting the opponent so close to the ground that you "land" during hitlag.

 

[Lavani]

And I'm pretty sure your theory that the hitlag person is "pushing" you into the ground is not possible because once you are in the air, no player can "push" you or occupy the same space you do like you do on the ground. This means that it should be possible to do this against a shield.

I figured as much, I just had that thought because I noticed the frame I was landing at in my recordings was the same frame the training dummy was shifting above me.

It was pretty easily debunked by perfect landing tipper Ike bairs, at any rate.

 

[Azazel]

Can Megaman do the frame cancel with one of his moves? could you give me a combo example?

I don't think it'll be significant for megaman. Bair is multi-hit so it wouldn't benefit much. Uair is a projectile, though it does benefit minimally by making Uair > Uair true combo on some characters, but it is very character specific. Dair is super laggy and is also a projectile. so this leaves Fair. at very specific percents (varys from characters) frame cancel fair > utilt/grab combos.

 

[cot(θ)]

I don't think it'll be significant for megaman. Bair is multi-hit so it wouldn't benefit much. Uair is a projectile, though it does benefit minimally by making Uair > Uair true combo on some characters, but it is very character specific. Dair is super laggy and is also a projectile. so this leaves Fair. at very specific percents (varys from characters) frame cancel fair > utilt/grab combos.

This move shouldn't be possible or useful with projectiles, since the user of a projectile doesn't experience any hitlag when it connects. If you have vids of Uair to Uair combos using this technique, please post them.

Also, I haven't succeeded in using this with Mega Man's Fair. In theory, I don't know why it wouldn't be possible, but I haven't had any luck with it.

 

[Anthon1996]

http://smashboards.com/threads/falc...e-play-discussion.367184/page-5#post-17712229

I actually found this last year on 3DS with Falco (and I thought only he could do it), but I couldn't do it consistently. Great to see someone with actual techskill spread the word.

 

[Azazel]

This move shouldn't be possible or useful with projectiles, since the user of a projectile doesn't experience any hitlag when it connects. If you have vids of Uair to Uair combos using this technique, please post them.

Also, I haven't succeeded in using this with Mega Man's Fair. In theory, I don't know why it wouldn't be possible, but I haven't had any luck with it.

Actually i might, I was testing characters that get full damage by Uair > Uair. I cut out footage of DK because it was insanely difficult. I believe this tech was responsible for it being possible on characters that were insanely hard to do with. I originally just sorta blamed it on DI, even though DI doesn't effect hitstun/frame advantage.

Also for the frame cancel fair > Utilt, try sheik and mess with the percents and staling. It's not very practical.

 

[Gidy]

So can all characters frame cancel?

 

[-TAG-]

The timing for technique is too tight to make it practical but the reward for performing it is something to behold. In order for this tech to be practical, the timing for it has to be lengthen. It maybe just wishful thinking but what if the Smash 4 team patched it so that it is made easier to perform?

 

[Ansou]

The timing for technique is too tight to make it practical but the reward for performing it is something to behold. In order for this tech to be practical, the timing for it has to be lengthen. It maybe just wishful thinking but what if the Smash 4 team patched it so that it is made easier to perform?

I'm pretty sure that will not happen. This is a glitch and if they would patch it in any way, they would patch it out of the game.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

The timing for technique is too tight to make it practical but the reward for performing it is something to behold. In order for this tech to be practical, the timing for it has to be lengthen. It maybe just wishful thinking but what if the Smash 4 team patched it so that it is made easier to perform?

I would just prefer for them to reduce the landing lag on the relevant aerials.

 

[Opana]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OlXn2Zam2XU

Maybe for other low jumpers?

 

[JJpalmer]

How does this work exactly lm not sure it looks difficult to do but sounds useful

 

[Omega Tyrant]

How does this work exactly lm not sure it looks difficult to do but sounds useful

Pretty much hit someone on the first frame your aerial's hitboxes come out while simultaneously landing.

 

[Super___Sonico]

So I understand this theory. But what button must be pressed in order for this to happen? I want to practice this with Bowser's Airs. But unless I know how its inputed, I cannot exactly practice can I?

 

[Omega Tyrant]

So I understand this theory. But what button must be pressed in order for this to happen? I want to practice this with Bowser's Airs. But unless I know how its inputed, I cannot exactly practice can I?

"Pretty much hit someone on the first frame your aerial's hitboxes come out while simultaneously landing."

There's no special input, it's just timing.

 

[moofpi]

I kind of have a hard time with any visual cue that I've done it (with Falco), I know I should be able to tell by if I can get a follow-up attack, but Ganon's is really easy to tell when you did it

 

[Nysyr]

This is nothing like L-cancel. Some high landing lag aerials like Falcon knee and Falco Dair most likely have different landing lag frames after a hit confirmed. In Falco's case, it also seems like the auto-cancel frame is different on hit confirmed Dair, so fastfalling it lets you land within that auto-cancel window.

If you want to call it something fancy, at least base the name off what it is actually doing.

 

[Ffamran]

So, Leg found out you can footstool out of Falco's frame canceled Dair.

I pulled off the FC Dair into Footstool. Tight timing, but possible.

Also, I came up with a Pseudo chaingrab I've been meaning to show off. Honestly its more of a reset, useful for opponents who dont tech. You can use it to set up guaranteed FC Dairs (or any other followup like a charged smash) at low percents.

 

[Acryte]

Can this only be done when landing, maybe it was something else I guess when I went off the edge and landed a BowserJR dair into footstool that connected like a regular combo, because I kept trying it over and over again afterward and it didn't seem possible... pretty sure I hit the dair late. IDK I don't really play Sm4sh much and my roommate was only letting my borrow his WiiU while he was gone.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

A bunch of true combos out of dair with this cancel for Ganondorf (not my video).

There are a few kill potentials in there too.

 

[Vipermoon]

I read this entire thread and I cannot believe that no one corrected the reported 11 frame landing lag on Dair Falco supposedly has.

If that were true it would be among the lowest landing lag in the game. Izaw got 11 frames at 30 frames/second. So that would be 22 frames. However, this http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/ shows 26 frames of landing lag for Falco's Dair which seems more accurate in practice. Either way, it's not 11 frames where the hitlag would probably outlast the landing lag if that were true (which I'm curious to see if we can find a hitlag > landing lag move).

With that said. I have a great name for this that I don't recall finding in this thread:

Hitlag Landing or HL.

This, by far, sounds like the most accurate name and it sounds pretty decent.