Zephil
Smash Ace
I agree with DK next... I have good experience vs DKs so I can apport some things in this matchup
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Fox Match-Up General Discussion
- Thread starter M@v
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M@v
Subarashii!
You guys can start DK...ill update the front page later. Ill put it as 45:55 for now, mainly because we have a wide range of people saying from 5:5 up to 4:6. either way, this is a close matchup. Last tourney I went to I got knocked out of the winners bracket by a peach. Both matches were extremely close, with both of us on our last stock, and over 100%.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
so whos gonna start DK? i can't really. i have nothing to say about him other than hes big, hairy, and combolicious lol. i've only fought bad DKs with Fox XD.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
I dunno about DK,
BUT I WAS RICK ROLLED BY NATIONAL TELEVISION DURING THE THANKSGIVING PARADE!
BUT I WAS RICK ROLLED BY NATIONAL TELEVISION DURING THE THANKSGIVING PARADE!
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
10rickrolltraps lol
Ok, hold the phone. I've been offline for most of yesterday but reading xIblisx's posts from my iPhone and really itching to reply.
I get the distinct impression that you have never faced a good Peach player, and don't understand both her mechanics and the basic strategies a Peach player would use.
Let's review.
1: She'd be floating too high for you to grab- usmash would be better.
2: The Peach should NOT be just sitting there floating. Float is not a defensive posture. There should be no reason that Fox would have to "approach" the float. The Peach should jump into the float during aggression, while at close range when you don't have time to prepare something about it, or using it as a spacing tool while in the air or when throwing turnips.
But then you made the second post, and I realized; you think the Peach is going to be groundfloating?? (instafloating at ground height)
This scenario will never happen. Peaches don't groundfloat except for out of shield aerials. They always instafloat at a desired height (say, at head height, or above Fox's usmash range). They're CERTAINLY not going to be groundfloating and waiting for Fox to approach them- the idea is ridiculous.
You're proposing scenarios a Peach player will never put themselves in, and then finding ways for Fox to beat it. Same thing the Ganondorfs did.
Let's look at your supposed Fox advantages.
If the Peach DI'd badly and is recovering extremely low and out of float and using forward-B to recover and you intercept that with a shine-spike, I can see that. Fox can potentially gimp Peach, but not easily or consistently, and he can't edgeguard her that well. She'll get back to the stage.
You've also been going on about Fox's uair possibly beating Peach's aerials, but it's really not a situation I can see happening. Peach has too much aerial control with her float- she'll be using her fair defensively to keep you at bay.
xIblisx, you are trying too hard to make a matchup you don't know into 50-50. I'm not here arguing for some massive disadvantage to Fox, but everything coming out of your mouth betrays a complete lack of understanding of Peach's moveset. This post is not meant as an insult to you, but you keep throwing weird stuff out there and then coming to conclusions based on it and then labeling the matchup 50-50.
Come into matchup threads with the intention of discussing, NOT with a pre-determined number in your head that you want to force the matchup to be.
It's worth noting that most of the people in this thread who have experience with the matchup put it in Peach's favor, and Edrees (who put it at 60-40) has more experience with Peach vs Fox at high levels of play than anyone here (he regularly practices with Champ!).
I put it at 55-45 Peach myself.
Sorry if this post came across wrong. I was a bit frustrated with xIblisx's post (having been unable to reply to them from my phone xD ) and am trying to address them all at once- I don't intend to come across as mad or mean.
I can tell. You're proposing scenarios which are extremely unlikely in order to give the matchup advantage to Fox. The Ganondorf boards did the same thing >.> ("we have no options to punish dair against shield? Well, if you're approaching with dair we can just...RAR uair." "why would we ever approach with dair from a distance allowing you to do that?" ).
I get the distinct impression that you have never faced a good Peach player, and don't understand both her mechanics and the basic strategies a Peach player would use.
Let's review.
I responded to the first quote confused, thinking you were talking about running into Peach's floating dair at head height and shielding, then trying to grab her. Two obvious things wrong with that picture:
1: She'd be floating too high for you to grab- usmash would be better.
2: The Peach should NOT be just sitting there floating. Float is not a defensive posture. There should be no reason that Fox would have to "approach" the float. The Peach should jump into the float during aggression, while at close range when you don't have time to prepare something about it, or using it as a spacing tool while in the air or when throwing turnips.
But then you made the second post, and I realized; you think the Peach is going to be groundfloating?? (instafloating at ground height)
This scenario will never happen. Peaches don't groundfloat except for out of shield aerials. They always instafloat at a desired height (say, at head height, or above Fox's usmash range). They're CERTAINLY not going to be groundfloating and waiting for Fox to approach them- the idea is ridiculous.
You're proposing scenarios a Peach player will never put themselves in, and then finding ways for Fox to beat it. Same thing the Ganondorfs did.
Let's look at your supposed Fox advantages.
Explain please. We already established that Peach's GROUND GAME (which you aren't even considering) outprioritizes and beats all of Fox's aerial approaches, and that Peach edgeguards Fox extremely well.
Explain again. You brought out Shine Spiking, which is another unlikely scenario. It doesn't send the player that far down, so you're going to have to catch the Peach when she is even with or below stage level. You have to approach from a diagonal-down angle, which means the Peach can simply up-B you, or toad if she's high enough that she won't die. Further, if she's floating to recover, she has enough maneuverability to back up and fair you.
If the Peach DI'd badly and is recovering extremely low and out of float and using forward-B to recover and you intercept that with a shine-spike, I can see that. Fox can potentially gimp Peach, but not easily or consistently, and he can't edgeguard her that well. She'll get back to the stage.
Wait, what? Explain.
This is outright wrong. Peach is heavier than Fox. Also, it's worth noting that due to Fox's fast-falling nature, Peach has 40-50% combos on him off of her easiest to land move (Dair) and a 40% chaingrab.
How is this a significant matchup-changing advantage? *confused*
You've also been going on about Fox's uair possibly beating Peach's aerials, but it's really not a situation I can see happening. Peach has too much aerial control with her float- she'll be using her fair defensively to keep you at bay.
xIblisx, you are trying too hard to make a matchup you don't know into 50-50. I'm not here arguing for some massive disadvantage to Fox, but everything coming out of your mouth betrays a complete lack of understanding of Peach's moveset. This post is not meant as an insult to you, but you keep throwing weird stuff out there and then coming to conclusions based on it and then labeling the matchup 50-50.
Come into matchup threads with the intention of discussing, NOT with a pre-determined number in your head that you want to force the matchup to be.
It's worth noting that most of the people in this thread who have experience with the matchup put it in Peach's favor, and Edrees (who put it at 60-40) has more experience with Peach vs Fox at high levels of play than anyone here (he regularly practices with Champ!).
I put it at 55-45 Peach myself.
Aren't matchup threads usually supposed to assume high levels of play? I agree that it's even at lower levels of play, when the Peach tends to overuse float (lining herself up for usmash kills) and would have a harder time edgeguarding the Fox with turnips + nair. But at higher levels, Peach has a clear advantage, and I think that's all that matters.
Sorry if this post came across wrong. I was a bit frustrated with xIblisx's post (having been unable to reply to them from my phone xD ) and am trying to address them all at once- I don't intend to come across as mad or mean.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
Praxis that float mimic thing i think he means is the hovering Fair from Fox. but thats not much of a bonus.
I'm with Praxis on this one. A lot of the later stuff doesn't make much sense.
And yes, matchup discussions are always about high levels of play. Iblis, you're dead wrong about a number of points, and I was going to correct them...until Praxis beat me to it. (Curses! *Shakes fist angrily*)
Would like to say this:
And yes, matchup discussions are always about high levels of play. Iblis, you're dead wrong about a number of points, and I was going to correct them...until Praxis beat me to it. (Curses! *Shakes fist angrily*)
Would like to say this:
It's not a clear advantage - both of them have very good punishes if you choose the wrong option, but Peach has a tad more variety in hers, which is really why I think the match swings to 55:45. At high levels of play, you won't see anything that stands out particularly in the matchup.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Well that could be argue-able, so that's why I included numbers for both scenarios. Either way we're both still in agreement, so the real conflict is (if you can even consider it one) is which number to display to the Fox community.
Can we assume people of high-level play will read this thread more than those of decency? Should that even be considered a factor in determining the numbers for a matchup? Personally, I think match-ups should be more generalized, depending on the difficulty for Fox to defeat a Peach, which does seem to be 45:55. Even though I came through with the same answer my means may have been different, is there anywhere a guide for determining match-ups, posted somewhere? I believe there should be, that way the entirety of the smash community would be more in agreement...
EDIT:
Lol, okay that seems to answer my question good enough for me.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
im still with 45:55 Peach.
SmashBrother2008
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2008
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- 1,227
By "floating mimic" i think he meant the rising Fair and the Reflector hovering. It's not much but the ability can't be totally useless. 50:50
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
it can mimic it, but its not much especially shinestall floating. mindgame elements yes though.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
We've already taken into account the Fox shinestalling mindgames so 45:55.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
lol praxis, how dry 
i think its 65:35 Peach
Peach will control the match, and 0-50% combos with d-air to tilts or grabs leaves her strong moves fresh, which will result in an even easier time to kill fox......all i like in this matchup is that fox has lasers and fair
i think its 65:35 Peach
Peach will control the match, and 0-50% combos with d-air to tilts or grabs leaves her strong moves fresh, which will result in an even easier time to kill fox......all i like in this matchup is that fox has lasers and fair
SmashBrother2008
Smash Lord
- Joined
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Wow. So are we going to get any good matchups for Fox?
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
D3,Falco,and Snake can all go in his favor if played right, theres still hope people just gotta keep playing to foxs potential
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
65:35Peach is going a bit too harsh.lol praxis, how dry
i think its 65:35 Peach
Peach will control the match, and 0-50% combos with d-air to tilts or grabs leaves her strong moves fresh, which will result in an even easier time to kill fox......all i like in this matchup is that fox has lasers and fair
yes Peach can control the match, but its not like were Olimar. Dair can **** yes, but were not exactly bowser. i'd run before i get Dair ***** and become a sandbag.
I know right? whens the last time we had even a 55:45 Fox?
but idk he seems like Fox is just all down hill matchs. i think the last advantage matchup by like a bare amount i remeber was ROB. XD
M@v
Subarashii!
lol praxis, how dry
i think its 65:35 Peach
Peach will control the match, and 0-50% combos with d-air to tilts or grabs leaves her strong moves fresh, which will result in an even easier time to kill fox......all i like in this matchup is that fox has lasers and fair
Lol...do you have ANY idea what your talking about?
65:35 peach? Really?
And Falco being an advantage fox? I almost fell out of my chair.
They are there. We dont need to cover the easy ones as urgently because they are easy, right? This is here to help people with matchups, and people generally need help with the harder matchups. I will say fox probably has more bad matchups than good, but he goes even/good with suprising amount of the high/top tiers. that is his main asset.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
yeah but it is kinda disheartening at times and boring to see another 60:40 enemy matchup. at least theres no more LOL matchups.
Yanoss1313
Smash Journeyman
hehe, yeah, speaking of LOL, recently my fox was crushed into little tiny Cuboids buy a CGing pika at the ranbat Melbourne tourney the other day... i set him straight with Lucas next round though ^.^
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Lol good thing too, I was like SERIOUSLY? Man this pika I was playing online didn't even know the CG, and I STILL lost, it's like impossible to get in his range and counter.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
yes chart does need updating. lol
Zephil
Smash Ace
well is true that pikachu is still tough without CG but well it was wifi. i never play with fox online, its never the same as playing offline, I feel him more difficult to use online
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
when i pick Fox online im mostly trying to bait out whiffs so i can combo to victory lol. his only bonus' online are you gain some lag comos, it takes people longer to break out of combos, and frame skipping leads to teleporting Usmash sometimes. but other than those Fox is one of the characters that are very hard to use online.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
That's true, but I've grown accustomed to it. I attend online tournaments, and I play ranked matches all the time. I SD more than I would like to, but that's side-b delay for you... my combo video was actually composed of wi-fi matches, and that wasn't too bad at all I would think.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
when you get the combos started everything does work out kinda flawlessly, even in lag/latency. the Fox combo video was still sexy anyway.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Alright so anyways let's get started on DK.
He's very gimp-able, drill shines work wonders here. He's also very susceptible to combos and follow ups. It's not that hard to throw him off the stage and finish him.
The only problem Foxes may face is getting in his range. DK has some great grabbing game, and can space with his smashes and tilt's fairly well. If he charges his monkey punch be on the lookout as well, a good DK will most probably not waste it. This doesn't mean he will always land it, but he will try to get you with it when you seem most vulnerable. Just take into account your position as well, and you can predict when he is about to unleash it.
Your grabbing game works well here as well, but his is better. Be careful when approaching through the air, f-air works really well, but I think most of his airs can beat yours.
I actually don't play many DK's so I would love if some DK mains would come down and visit.
He's very gimp-able, drill shines work wonders here. He's also very susceptible to combos and follow ups. It's not that hard to throw him off the stage and finish him.
The only problem Foxes may face is getting in his range. DK has some great grabbing game, and can space with his smashes and tilt's fairly well. If he charges his monkey punch be on the lookout as well, a good DK will most probably not waste it. This doesn't mean he will always land it, but he will try to get you with it when you seem most vulnerable. Just take into account your position as well, and you can predict when he is about to unleash it.
Your grabbing game works well here as well, but his is better. Be careful when approaching through the air, f-air works really well, but I think most of his airs can beat yours.
I actually don't play many DK's so I would love if some DK mains would come down and visit.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Lol I just checked out the DK threads, they haven't done Fox yet, but apparently according to them DK is a lot better than Fox. I dunno you guys think this is true? They have a 50:50 with MK, ROB, Lucario, and Marth, with Shiek, Snake, and G&W leaning towards DK advantage.
0.0 I'm going to pick up DK, supposing this isn't RIDICULOUS. But I wouldn't know...
0.0 I'm going to pick up DK, supposing this isn't RIDICULOUS. But I wouldn't know...
Zephil
Smash Ace
Definitely fox have the advantage here (finally)... I have played with really good DKs and best way to fight them is don´t let them breath, DK is very gimpable as lightning said. Is one of the characters that best work the Dair - utilt combo. DK is strong and has great grabs, powerful and fast tilts and two really good aerials (uair and bair) specially the bair, be really careful with it because it has good range and a lot of priority. In this match shine is your best friend... shine spike works great vs DK as he has a horrible vertical recovery.
So in summary, DK has fast moves but it also has some moves with huge lag so ones you see an opportunity to strike, you can hurt him a lot. DK is one the character that have to be very careful with fox because he specialize in punishing opponents mistakes and DK is one of the characters more easy to punish for fox.
PS. NEVER LET HIM CHARGE THE PUNCH... most of DK mindgames comes from the charged punch and if it hits hurts A LOT!!
I think this match is 60-40 for fox
So in summary, DK has fast moves but it also has some moves with huge lag so ones you see an opportunity to strike, you can hurt him a lot. DK is one the character that have to be very careful with fox because he specialize in punishing opponents mistakes and DK is one of the characters more easy to punish for fox.
PS. NEVER LET HIM CHARGE THE PUNCH... most of DK mindgames comes from the charged punch and if it hits hurts A LOT!!
I think this match is 60-40 for fox
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
i don't really know either since i also don't fight many DKs either. those 50:50s might also be similar to why they have it advantage DK over Fox. cause if you notice all those listed are generally faster than DK and he, DKs, is and combolicious.
maybe we should send a personal invite to the DK boards. (goes to do so)
edit: just posted in there general disscusion thread for thme to swing by. also @Zephil since DK has bad vertical recovery i don't think he'll ever try to recover low unless its either do that or die anyway. and in that instance Dsmash is the best way to go for that. im not settling on 40:60Fox until i get some DK mainers input. atm i fee its more like 45:55Fox, or maybe even.
maybe we should send a personal invite to the DK boards. (goes to do so)
edit: just posted in there general disscusion thread for thme to swing by. also @Zephil since DK has bad vertical recovery i don't think he'll ever try to recover low unless its either do that or die anyway. and in that instance Dsmash is the best way to go for that. im not settling on 40:60Fox until i get some DK mainers input. atm i fee its more like 45:55Fox, or maybe even.
Ripple
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this is probably most like shiek vs. ganondorf in melee without chainthrows. raw power and 2-3 hit combos vs. fast ,relatively weak, combo heavy 6-9 hits.
imo is match up is 55-45 DK but I'm leaning toword dead even because of Bias but I did used to play fox so idk.
the thing that you fox players need to know is that spamming lasers is not going to help you much. as far as I would start the match, I would gladly take all that damage from lasers to wind up a punch. DK is an approaching monster, with one of if not the best approach in the game you don't want to take the risk of firing a laser and having us punch or bair you in the face. its best to have an ooffensive fox for this match up.
constant pressure will eventually cause DK to succumb to an up smash or bair. d air to buffered grab is your best friend as I don't think DK can avoid it fast enough.
the only thing that really makes this even is DK's weight and fox's lightness. one well placed F smash or punch and your out at 90% but Fox has to get us up to at least 130% to kill us.
btw DK's up b is hard to hit with shine because of weird hitboxes, I would acually dair off stage to spike DK rather than shine.
imo is match up is 55-45 DK but I'm leaning toword dead even because of Bias but I did used to play fox so idk.
the thing that you fox players need to know is that spamming lasers is not going to help you much. as far as I would start the match, I would gladly take all that damage from lasers to wind up a punch. DK is an approaching monster, with one of if not the best approach in the game you don't want to take the risk of firing a laser and having us punch or bair you in the face. its best to have an ooffensive fox for this match up.
constant pressure will eventually cause DK to succumb to an up smash or bair. d air to buffered grab is your best friend as I don't think DK can avoid it fast enough.
the only thing that really makes this even is DK's weight and fox's lightness. one well placed F smash or punch and your out at 90% but Fox has to get us up to at least 130% to kill us.
btw DK's up b is hard to hit with shine because of weird hitboxes, I would acually dair off stage to spike DK rather than shine.
You guys are forgetting that Bair will eat through your face, Dtilts are monsters for spacing, and that Fox is light as hell as will die very easily to a two-hit spike setup from DK.
At the same time, approaching Bairs can be punished, we can outcamp DK, and gimping him is tasty stuff.
He's heavy, and his horizontal recovery is nothing to laugh at, so you're going to want to look for gimp kills if possible. But in any case, you have to be careful - DK has 1094701 spikes, and he's not afraid to use them if it looks like he'll connect offstage. So use the shine very, very carefully.
On stage, DK has plenty of nice setups into some almost guaranteed combos on Fox (unless you have perfect DI) and some guaranteed combos (although those usually aren't as harmful, unless you're looking at spikes).
On the other hand, DK is a huge, heavy character. I think that should speak for itself, really. Fox has great fun with heavies.
At the same time, approaching Bairs can be punished, we can outcamp DK, and gimping him is tasty stuff.
He's heavy, and his horizontal recovery is nothing to laugh at, so you're going to want to look for gimp kills if possible. But in any case, you have to be careful - DK has 1094701 spikes, and he's not afraid to use them if it looks like he'll connect offstage. So use the shine very, very carefully.
On stage, DK has plenty of nice setups into some almost guaranteed combos on Fox (unless you have perfect DI) and some guaranteed combos (although those usually aren't as harmful, unless you're looking at spikes).
On the other hand, DK is a huge, heavy character. I think that should speak for itself, really. Fox has great fun with heavies.
Probably not entirely accurate, but hey, I don't know DK that well.
Depends on your percentage, but usually not. If you blocked the Dair, then yes, always.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Neither do I, but DK I find REALLY easy to gimp, considering gimping is one of my Fox's strengths. I love to have fun off the edge more than on. I don't really camp unless the guy is using retreating airs, so that's not a concern for me. I actually remember the first good DK I fought, I was surprised by how good the spacing was and how much damage I was taking, but it wasn't all that hard to win.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
yeah lasers are kinda meh, i even take a few laser shots as JP is it means i can get a free bigger hit in the process.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Well, still, I appreciate the DK main coming down to visit, but it still seems both sides seem unfamiliar with the opposing character. There has been many numbers so... I dunno...
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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maybe you guys should skip us for a week and get back to us when we have actually played each other instead of theorycraft
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
ripple kinda has a point. its all theory craft here and both feel like they have the advantage to some degree.
so Lucario or Mario? if we decide to skip him for now.
so Lucario or Mario? if we decide to skip him for now.
I'm pretty sure Uchiha beat Bigfoot at a tournament. I'll see if I can get Uchiha in here.
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