M@v
Subarashii!
Ok we have officially switched to DK. Wrote a long summary about peach. Its even.
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Fox Match-Up General Discussion
- Thread starter M@v
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Lightning93
Smash Champion
Yay for M@V, plus his new sig! Changed your characters now did we? That's why I narrowed my sig down to only Fox, I always change my secondaries.
Oh! Even though Diddy Kong IS weak, be sure to include pressure and combo-ing is what really makes this match even, Fox can combo Diddy like crazy.
Oh! Even though Diddy Kong IS weak, be sure to include pressure and combo-ing is what really makes this match even, Fox can combo Diddy like crazy.
M@v
Subarashii!
nah. been using pit a while now. Its just im using him more than falco.
We are talking about DONKEY kong too, not diddy.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
So, first of all, coming after Thanksgiving, I'm really confused by this thread... : / We're talking about Donkey now? I have some exp in the match. I'll talk about that later, if we ARE talking about it.
Secondly, and more importantly, I went to a tourney this past weekend, and played the first good ZSS I've played...
And it really wasn't an OMG TERRIBLE match... in fact, it really wasn't hard for me...
Yeah, he knew about the dsmash chain... and he kept trying to land it on me... through use of pivot smashes, roll smashes, double and triple smashes....
and it just...didn't...work. In two matches, I got hit with the dsmash only a couple times. Once, when I was about 40%, so it wasn't fully diminished, and I jumped out. Not a big deal. The other, he wasn't expecting to actually land it, so he botched a timing...
This reinforces what I had thought originally, be REALLY careful about the Dsmash for the first part of your stock, and it won't work in the later %s. You KNOW ZSS is going to try for it a lot...and it's just not that hard to bait and avoid... Don't be dumb and run into it... but yeah.
Other than the Dsmash, Fox has an advantage in this match, imo. He just seems to have quite a few more options here... and he can edgeguard her well, and just overall mess her up.
I'll admit that in the hands of an incredible player, Dsmash becomes a much greater threat... But even so, they have to hit it with you at a low % to land the whole chain, or it won't diminish properly, and you can jump out. I still give this an advantage to ZSS just because of the Fox player consistently having to worry about the Dsmash, but yeah. Realize that the Dsmash has decent forward range, but no backward... so you can keep mixing sides, and being in the air a LOT...and it's just not terrible. I two stocked him at least once...maybe both matches...I can't really remember, but yeah, I didn't have a problem with it.
So, I am removing this from my personal list of "wtf impossible" matchups. I'll let you all know if I figure out Pika. lol
Right now, I have several matchups I really would like to either CP or learn some way to beat consistently...
Pika
Luigi
Sheik
Other than that, I don't have too much trouble against most of the characters... I have other disadvantage matchups, but they're not terrible. This is al just my opinion, of course, but yeah.
I thought about making a thread for this, but this is the matchup thread, so I thought I'd just post it here for now.
Secondly, and more importantly, I went to a tourney this past weekend, and played the first good ZSS I've played...
And it really wasn't an OMG TERRIBLE match... in fact, it really wasn't hard for me...
Yeah, he knew about the dsmash chain... and he kept trying to land it on me... through use of pivot smashes, roll smashes, double and triple smashes....
and it just...didn't...work. In two matches, I got hit with the dsmash only a couple times. Once, when I was about 40%, so it wasn't fully diminished, and I jumped out. Not a big deal. The other, he wasn't expecting to actually land it, so he botched a timing...
This reinforces what I had thought originally, be REALLY careful about the Dsmash for the first part of your stock, and it won't work in the later %s. You KNOW ZSS is going to try for it a lot...and it's just not that hard to bait and avoid... Don't be dumb and run into it... but yeah.
Other than the Dsmash, Fox has an advantage in this match, imo. He just seems to have quite a few more options here... and he can edgeguard her well, and just overall mess her up.
I'll admit that in the hands of an incredible player, Dsmash becomes a much greater threat... But even so, they have to hit it with you at a low % to land the whole chain, or it won't diminish properly, and you can jump out. I still give this an advantage to ZSS just because of the Fox player consistently having to worry about the Dsmash, but yeah. Realize that the Dsmash has decent forward range, but no backward... so you can keep mixing sides, and being in the air a LOT...and it's just not terrible. I two stocked him at least once...maybe both matches...I can't really remember, but yeah, I didn't have a problem with it.
So, I am removing this from my personal list of "wtf impossible" matchups. I'll let you all know if I figure out Pika. lol
Right now, I have several matchups I really would like to either CP or learn some way to beat consistently...
Pika
Luigi
Sheik
Other than that, I don't have too much trouble against most of the characters... I have other disadvantage matchups, but they're not terrible. This is al just my opinion, of course, but yeah.
I thought about making a thread for this, but this is the matchup thread, so I thought I'd just post it here for now.
M@v
Subarashii!
Hey Fenrir you didn't fall into a black hole somewhere after all. Interesting stuff you go there. I dont see too many ZSS in tourneys, so I don't get too much experience vs them.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
Black hole of finals time in school mixed with thanksgiving. heh
But I'm around. Not a huge fan of posting in matchup discussions, but when soemthing needs said, i'll be around. look at the luigi discussion for instance. lol
Oh also... best quote of the day...
"dang, Fenrir, I was reading your posts of 'Fox can get his opponents to 50% without too much trouble, etc etc' and other people saying 'uh...no he can't'... and I was thinking 'uh, no he can't.' And then I played you, and you got me to 50% without any problem... Proved me wrong"
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
i still would like to know how fox is even with diddy
SmashBrother2008
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2008
- Messages
- 1,227
Good post, Fenrir. ZZS does seem to rely too much on Dsmash. Without that, she's a pretty basic matchup...
Donkey Kong: Phh! Blaster Spam!
Donkey Kong: Phh! Blaster Spam!
NeverKnowsBest
Monochrome Like A Panda
^I wouldn't say blaster spam but LOTs of SHDL without a doubt.
SmashBrother2008
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2008
- Messages
- 1,227
J/K about the blaster. I just wanted to point out that this is one of those matchups were his blaster isn't completely useless.
M@v
Subarashii!
I got finals in 2 weeks myself
. But its not stopping me from going to a tourney on Saturday =P. What college are you at?
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
foxs blaster is never useless, remember that
M@v
Subarashii!
DKS vertical recovery is horrible. try shine spiking him before he gets upB off?
Shady Penguin
Smash Lord
I have a lot of experience against DK, so I know that his Up-B has great priority. Trying to shine-spike him is generally too risky from what I've seen, because he can just swat you aside with his Up-B before you get close enough for an SS and then return to the stage before you for a zoning advantage.
In a worst case scenario, you can be stage-spiked and than edge-hogged when you try to return (not as unlikely as it sounds).
Lightning93
Smash Champion
That's why you must do the drill spikes... although I know DK has surprising up-b priority, it might be harder for him to beat a d-air. We already discussed a good amount of this matchup, but it was mostly theory, can you guys read the previous pages and possibly confirm or deny anything?
Lol I know this, but I was talking about the summaries on the front. You forget to mention the main reason DDK is 50:50 is because Fox can combo him like nothing. Trust me, both DDK pros I fought said they didn't even bother once I had them in my... uh... hands (paws?). That's the only reason I won...
Acex27
Smash Apprentice
As long as you hit the DK either before or after the SA frames of his Up B, he should be screwed. As long as you have the positioning and timing down for the DK shine spike, you should be fine. Of course if you do end up getting hit by the Up B, you could be saying goodbye to a good percentage of damage or even a stock.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
If you do fail the SS be prepared to either tech the stage spike as he brings you over, or get ready to immediately recover after he grabs the edge. Recovering also includes wall-jumping.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
DKs grab stage spike and armor on his punch will also make approaching him hard.........its still 60/40 for fox though, fair and uair are great vs him........i like to cp them to Brinstar and ban Japes obviously
Lightning93
Smash Champion
I agree this is an advantage, but DK believes this as well. I read their boards and they think 40:60 for DK, because he can beat all our approaches.
Obviously either side hasn't had enough experience yet with the other so that's why we need a tourney to settle these things.
Obviously either side hasn't had enough experience yet with the other so that's why we need a tourney to settle these things.
NeverKnowsBest
Monochrome Like A Panda
I was able to beat DK Smash's DK with ease at Chu's Thankgiving Bi-Weekly in my first match by simply SHDL/RARSHDL, PWGs and nicely timed upsmashes. I don't understand how DK 60:40's Fox.
Just don't recklessly rush into the fight.
DK Smash is Good **** btw. He is cool.
Just don't recklessly rush into the fight.
DK Smash is Good **** btw. He is cool.
§witch
Smash Lord
Lol, brinstar is DK's best stage.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Well, I personally don't have trouble with DK's either, but we can't just ignore what their community has to say.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
we're still on DK? have we come to an agreement, or are there still some holes not filled yet?
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
play me on Brinstar and see what happens
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Well the Foxes seem to agree we have the advantage, but the DK's seem to disagree... I think we should start that tourney or at least put this on hold.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
how are we gonna do the tourney? and when?
KheldarVII
Smash Ace
Of course they're gonna disagree. There's no strong points on either side other than theory about the sciences of each characters move statistics. That's pretty much what the Fox boards are right now, where we say we have some sort of advantage and the rest of the crew saying we don't. Has there been any board that has AGREED to a Fox advantage versus them? Face it, this board is laughed at by everybody (curse you SBR) and I say we should just put all our matchups at a disadvantage to make them happy. We can all continue to own whatever character we face (that isn't Pikachu, Sheik, or ZSS) from then on.
Believe in your character, believe.
crifer
Smash Lord
nice speech^^ I´m gonna say it´s neutral,
who gets the first hit and combos the other win,
I mean fox can dthrow to fair and utilt DK to a good percentage
and Dk can give good damage by dtilt to downB and so on...
who gets the first hit and combos the other win,
I mean fox can dthrow to fair and utilt DK to a good percentage
and Dk can give good damage by dtilt to downB and so on...
Lightning93
Smash Champion
I do believe.
But that doesn't mean we can't continue to ignore the DK community, obviously they have received bad match-ups as well. And who are we to inflict the same oppression the Fox community must endure, upon them?
This, my fellow Fox fighters (lol), is why we must have proof, which I haven't seen much of this discussion.
Check out this forum, the DK's have been preparing to fight us:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208016
Maybe WE could use this board as means of organization as well. That way both communities are literally "on the same page."
KheldarVII
Smash Ace
Well, basically the two sides of the coin at heavy and strong versus faster and light. Once again that light weight comes back to haunt Fox.
Believe it or not both characters are able to U-tilt each other. DK's doesn't have too much of a follow-up however (and not much defense versus escaping Fox's) so you can give that advantage to Fox.
DK's F-smash is practicaly just like Ike's. Did you know Ike can kill Fox right around 40% on the ledge? Well I recall it being roughly the same for DK. If Fox is cornered on the ledge, consider this more of a DK advantage. Oh yes, D-tilt and F-tilt will also give you pain here. The only thing Fox can do is Illusion through, come in from the air, or shield-grab. Basically he narrows Fox's options down a bit.
How about long range? Long range is always gonna be in Fox's favor as he has .... dun dun dun ... A BLASTER! YAAAAY. It's a good thing DK is attracted to shiny lasers as he loves it when you blaster him. You can either send him into a rage or give him a few seconds to charge up his "guns". Most of the time when he's done that though he'll make his way over to you. He could either cover himself with RAR-B-air's or just park himself mid-range from Fox so he can prompty F-tilt/D-tilt his *** and gain the spacing advantage once again. But in any case, since DK has to adjust himself, I give long-range to Fox.
In a scuffle DK will almost always lose instantly in a SH. Fox should take advantage of any attempts of DK jumping facing forward. N-air, F-air, and SideB are all worse options than DK's B-air so that's what DK will be using most of the time. Thankfully, Fox's F-air will eat up most of any DK SH aerials. Haven't tested most of it. Hell, F-air will eat up DK when he's standing still.
Pushed off the edge with DK's B-air? Well this is where it really shines as he'll easily keep kicking you as long as he can stay airborne. Don't panic, save your jump. I wouldn't try shining. You can test N-air's priority at this point if you want. DK gets a slight advantage in the air when Fox is able to eat his foot.
Edge-guarding... Fox can't do it very well. I believe the only options he has here are a drill-shine, a B-air, or a FireFox from below. DK will rarely let you get a chance to attack him while he's recovering though so just let him get the ledge as Fox can handle him better with a ledge mindgame. If Fox is off the ledge, DK probably wouldn't want to come down at him anyway but he can hit you without the fear of getting hit back, unlike Fox. He has three spikes to work with and he can easily just jump out and give you a fist full of UpB anyway, simple as that. And when Fox is on the ledge, practically all of your ledge recover options can end up eating a D-smash.
I guess I'll do quick points now as I know I've probably said multiple things wrong in this matchup.
Fox
- Can combo DK fairly easily
- Wins in the air, usually closer to the ground but also high up if he knocked DK up there.
- Blaster gives Fox a long range advantage. DK never wants to be too far. No matter how long his arms are.
- Fox is very fast and can avoid, dodge, or shield most of DK's smashes.
- Can recover fairly easily.
- U-smash kills DK at roughly 120%
- If Fox can always stay in a certain range and put DK in an awkward position (like DK SHing forward) he will always gain the advantage. Fox has the speed to blitz DK constantly.
- DK will have a hard time spot dodging your offense.
DK
- Can KO Fox just after 60-70%.
- Doesn't have to worry too much about recovery, unless Fox hits him after he uses his second jump.
- D-smash covers dodge rolling
- D-tilt/F-tilt give Fox a hard time approaching from the ground. U-tilt slightly covers the top, but it's pretty slow.
- Has many spikes and they're easier to land if Fox is using his Up-b, although a good B-air to the stage works just as well.
- Can grab and throw Fox right under the stage.
I don't know. I'm trying to think of both sides and how blindsided they could be for either character. I've seem domination from both characters. But due to the sheer options Fox has against DK and how easily he can get around him (except facing F-tilt) I'd be willing to call it 55:45 Fox.
Please pick apart any incorrect info there. I'm sure I got some of it wrong. All I have to experiment with is a DK mainer living in my house. Although he never goes to tournaments and just plays me. He knows all about the spacing and positioning stuff though.
Believe it or not both characters are able to U-tilt each other. DK's doesn't have too much of a follow-up however (and not much defense versus escaping Fox's) so you can give that advantage to Fox.
DK's F-smash is practicaly just like Ike's. Did you know Ike can kill Fox right around 40% on the ledge? Well I recall it being roughly the same for DK. If Fox is cornered on the ledge, consider this more of a DK advantage. Oh yes, D-tilt and F-tilt will also give you pain here. The only thing Fox can do is Illusion through, come in from the air, or shield-grab. Basically he narrows Fox's options down a bit.
How about long range? Long range is always gonna be in Fox's favor as he has .... dun dun dun ... A BLASTER! YAAAAY. It's a good thing DK is attracted to shiny lasers as he loves it when you blaster him. You can either send him into a rage or give him a few seconds to charge up his "guns". Most of the time when he's done that though he'll make his way over to you. He could either cover himself with RAR-B-air's or just park himself mid-range from Fox so he can prompty F-tilt/D-tilt his *** and gain the spacing advantage once again. But in any case, since DK has to adjust himself, I give long-range to Fox.
In a scuffle DK will almost always lose instantly in a SH. Fox should take advantage of any attempts of DK jumping facing forward. N-air, F-air, and SideB are all worse options than DK's B-air so that's what DK will be using most of the time. Thankfully, Fox's F-air will eat up most of any DK SH aerials. Haven't tested most of it. Hell, F-air will eat up DK when he's standing still.
Pushed off the edge with DK's B-air? Well this is where it really shines as he'll easily keep kicking you as long as he can stay airborne. Don't panic, save your jump. I wouldn't try shining. You can test N-air's priority at this point if you want. DK gets a slight advantage in the air when Fox is able to eat his foot.
Edge-guarding... Fox can't do it very well. I believe the only options he has here are a drill-shine, a B-air, or a FireFox from below. DK will rarely let you get a chance to attack him while he's recovering though so just let him get the ledge as Fox can handle him better with a ledge mindgame. If Fox is off the ledge, DK probably wouldn't want to come down at him anyway but he can hit you without the fear of getting hit back, unlike Fox. He has three spikes to work with and he can easily just jump out and give you a fist full of UpB anyway, simple as that. And when Fox is on the ledge, practically all of your ledge recover options can end up eating a D-smash.
I guess I'll do quick points now as I know I've probably said multiple things wrong in this matchup.
Fox
- Can combo DK fairly easily
- Wins in the air, usually closer to the ground but also high up if he knocked DK up there.
- Blaster gives Fox a long range advantage. DK never wants to be too far. No matter how long his arms are.
- Fox is very fast and can avoid, dodge, or shield most of DK's smashes.
- Can recover fairly easily.
- U-smash kills DK at roughly 120%
- If Fox can always stay in a certain range and put DK in an awkward position (like DK SHing forward) he will always gain the advantage. Fox has the speed to blitz DK constantly.
- DK will have a hard time spot dodging your offense.
DK
- Can KO Fox just after 60-70%.
- Doesn't have to worry too much about recovery, unless Fox hits him after he uses his second jump.
- D-smash covers dodge rolling
- D-tilt/F-tilt give Fox a hard time approaching from the ground. U-tilt slightly covers the top, but it's pretty slow.
- Has many spikes and they're easier to land if Fox is using his Up-b, although a good B-air to the stage works just as well.
- Can grab and throw Fox right under the stage.
I don't know. I'm trying to think of both sides and how blindsided they could be for either character. I've seem domination from both characters. But due to the sheer options Fox has against DK and how easily he can get around him (except facing F-tilt) I'd be willing to call it 55:45 Fox.
Please pick apart any incorrect info there. I'm sure I got some of it wrong. All I have to experiment with is a DK mainer living in my house. Although he never goes to tournaments and just plays me. He knows all about the spacing and positioning stuff though.
Lulz, Majora's Mask ref.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I love the matchup thread here. I think it's probably one of the best formatted matchup threads on all of SWF.
that is all. keep up the good work.
that is all. keep up the good work.
NeverKnowsBest
Monochrome Like A Panda
Does anyone know who will be representing us yet for the DK/Fox fight? Because I'd love to be apart of this and prove that I believe Fox has the advantage.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Pssh... I know Fox has the advantage... but I've been wrong before and I like to give everyone a chance.
I would be willing to represent the Fox community, it would be, shall we say... A HUGE HONOR?
I'm not jk btw.
Kheldar I'm sure most of what you said is legit, but you probably are missing a few holes.
I would be willing to represent the Fox community, it would be, shall we say... A HUGE HONOR?
I'm not jk btw.
Kheldar I'm sure most of what you said is legit, but you probably are missing a few holes.
PhilMcCloud17
Smash Cadet
do it for the force man!!!! lol
Lightning93
Smash Champion
FOOOOOXFOOOOOORCE!
Longer battle cry for Fox threads lol.
But yeah I am most sure this will show who is the boss of this match-up...
Longer battle cry for Fox threads lol.
But yeah I am most sure this will show who is the boss of this match-up...
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Lol it is true, the only people I've ever heard wi-fi proves nothing are those who always lose while playing it. Supposedly we're supposed to believe they get beat us in rl. But come on... we're FOX, not many other characters get as screwed as us. Even our recovery requires precise timing our else we end up missing the edge or into a smash or spike.
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