Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[∫unk]

Lol it is true, the only people I've ever heard wi-fi proves nothing are those who always lose while playing it. Supposedly we're supposed to believe they get beat us in rl. But come on... we're FOX, not many other characters get as screwed as us. Even our recovery requires precise timing our else we end up missing the edge or into a smash or spike.

LOL you need a reality check.

 

[Lightning93]

Says the Math main with easy approaches...

 

[M@v]

^ Dude, Junk is kind of right. PLEASE do not base your matchup assumptions on wifi Lightning. It is utterly useless. I have played some one for a couple months online, then played him offline when we went to college. It was like fighting a new person. I have to change my whole freaking playstyle to avoid not getting owned online, due to all the lag. It really sucks.(Thanks Nintendo)


This goes for everyone; unless the guy you play lives down the street(in which you should walk over anyway), DONT USE WIFI AS YOUR MAIN EVALUATOR.


Also we appreciate the comment hedgedawg. ^_^

 

[∫unk]

As one of the top marths I can still lose to you on wifi (spacing/delayed multiple button inputs) but I can guarantee at least a 2-stock if we played irl.

Goto this it's a huge tourney over winter break near you. People from texas are even coming.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194400

See you there.

 

[Zhamy]

At SFSU? GOD DAMMIT, I'M GOING TO BE AWAY THAT WEEKEND.

For some reason, timing always screws me. I'm usually only 40 minutes away, too.

 

[M@v]

Ok well I have read through all your input everyone, and though about my DK experiences too. I think we have yet another 50:50 on our hands here.


SUMMARY:
This matchup is very similar to Kind DDD's matchup. DK is the master of spikes. Always keep this in mind when you try to gimp him. Dk, like all other heavies, succumbs to fox's combo abilities. At the same time however, he has a noticeable range advantage on you.
The main difference between fighting DK and DDD comes off-stage. Dk, as mentioned before, has an arsenal of spikes at his disposal, and an good horizontal recovery. His weakness is his Vertical recovery, which is one of the worst in the game. You can try to gimp him, but his up b beats anything you have in the air, so it will be tricky. Big piece of advice: do NOT get hit by DK's smashes. You will go flying. You will die. You will cry. The key to winning here is being patient, waiting for your openings, and punishing DK's mistakes.

NEXT UP: TOON LINK

It never fails. I ALWAYS see at least 1 toon link at every tournament I have been to. And I Rarely EVER lose against TLs. This might be because: A. Im just good against TL B. All the TL's I have faced(a lot) have ALL sucked C. This is a good matchup for fox. Lets find out

Also, Im a HUGE fan of Zelda games, and Wind Waker is arguably my favorite. Ive played TL before, but I never really stuck with him.

 

[KheldarVII]

Believe it or not I think this might be one of the matchups Fox might have an advantage for. TL will have a hard time killing you so that's always a plus. Then again I don't face too many Toon Links. Actually, I did play one at my last tournament and I proceeded to own it and then he brought out MK.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

darn i have nothing to say on Tlink. oh well guess im just reading along then. last time i fought one with Fox he wasn't too hard, but not easy either.

 

[KheldarVII]

Alright well the Toon Link boards have it listed as 4:6 and here's what they wrote down. Feel free to comment.

Fox- Fox's blaster is alright in Brawl. Not as good as Melee, but alright. This makes the projectile battle in Toon Link's advantage. Your projectiles stun, his don't. Because of how fast his Blaster fires, he's likely to get a few hits off. Don't fret though, these hits only do between 1-3 damage. Your projectiles, in addition to doing more damage, stun him, and will eventually force him to approach. If he begins shooting stationary lasers, remember to attack from above with your projectiles. Although you win the projectile war...Does that mean you win the camping war? A difficult question to ask, since there is one move Fox has that completely renders your projectiles useless: Shine. Fox's down B, or Reflector, or Shine, reflects back your projectiles. Will most Fox's use this from long range while you are spamming them? It depends. If you are playing smart and avoiding lasers while attacking with projectiles, then yes. Theoretically, they can just wait in the Shine all day while you throw projectiles and have them reflected back at you. However, this will almost never be the case.

Instead of focusing on trying to outcamp Fox with your projectiles, position yourself in mid range. This is where you can really take the pain to Fox, as he is basically forced to approach you. He can't laser you, because if he tries, all you need to do hit him with your own projectiles while he is in the air. If he tries to shine them back at you...Be smart, bait it. His Shine takes a while to get out of, so use that opportunity to attack him. It won't be easy though. Fox's lasers are quick, and combined with his Shine, you just may find it too hard to try and time projectiles/worry about his Shine etc...That's when the battle gets taken up close. Who wins the up close game? It's close, but Toon Link does. There is one general rule to keep in mind when fighting Fox. Do not let him get on top of you. Fox can easily combo any character using a combination of his drill, utilt, smash attacks and shine. To combat this, retreating aerials will be your best friend here, along with a more...unorthodox type of defense. Forward Smash. Your Forward Smash will help immensely here, for one huge reason: Fox can't approach.

His approaches are garbage, with only his Dair, which is alright, his grab, which is avoidable/nothing to worry about if he gets it off, and his Nair, which has no range. Fox's dair will be used to try and start a combo, his grab will be used due to Fox's fast running speed, resulting in good dash grabs, and his Nair will be used because it autocancels, meaning if he lands after/in the middle of a Nair, he can immediately use another attack. That means, if he hits your shield with it, don't let go of your shield, just roll away. If he misses with it, don't run in to punish it, unless it's with something that outranges him like your hookshot grab. Back to Forward Smash. Fox's approaches have no range, priority, and each one of them is easily avoided due to Fox's horrible DI and lack of spacing tools. Use your Fsmash when he gets close. Toon Link leans in when he Fsmashes, so it has incredible range. This should stop all of Fox's approaches if spaced properly. Like I mentioned, it's not like he can attack in the air, then DI away to avoid an Fsmash...It's not like he can outrange your Fsmash. Simply put, if he approaches and you Fsmash, you have him trapped. If he catches on and starts dashing and shielding, then don't use the second hit of your Fsmash. It's safe. Be wary of his Dash Attack also, which can lead into a combo, but again is easily taken care of with the strategies discussed above.

Basically, you're going to want to stay mid range against Fox, making it so he can't laser you or do much against your projectiles without fear of being punished. When you get close enough, camp him mid range using retreating aerials and Forward Smashes to punish any thoughts he has of getting close to you. This is a tactic used commonly by Marth in Brawl, mid range camping. Toon Link can do it also, perhaps not as well, but the option is still there, and it's clutch in several matchups, including this one. It's common sense really. If a character cannot approach you safely due to being outranged and a lack of safe approaches...Just make sure he can't approach safely, and punish when he does. Now, to kill Fox. If you want to get technical and talk percentages, Fox can normally kill Toon Link quicker than the other way around, despite Fox being the 7th lightest character in the game. His Usmash is deadly, be careful of it.

However, technicalities aren't always the way to judge things, especially not in a game as deep and unpredictable as Smash. Fox shouldn't be racking up damage on you. If you've camped him mid range, you should stay safe and, for the most part, out of harm's way, save a few lasers here and there and maybe a grab once in a while. Fox can be killed many ways. He dies at low percents due to his light weight. Fsmash works amazing in this match up as a kill move, especially since you'll be using it as a spacing tool anyways. Also, Toon Link's aerials have nice knockback, so at around the mid to high 100's, your aerials can do the trick. Basically, Fox will die on his own due to trying to approach you and being camped mid range.

To edgeguard Fox with Toon Link is easy. Fox has 3 useful options to recover. First, he can use his Illusion, or side B to grab the ledge. Next, he can use his Illusion to come back onto the stage. Lastly, he can use his Foxfire, or up B, which they will almost never use unless forced to. Going back to basic strategy, you're going to want to cover as many options as possible. Here's how you do it. Throw either a boomerang, or, preferably if you can time it right, an arrow off of the edge. This covers his option to Illusion back to the stage. If he tries, he will get hit by your arrow/boomerang and fall down, forcing him to Foxfire. After you throw your projectile of choice, quickly edgehug. This covers his option to Illusion to the ledge, as if he tries, he will fall to his death. Now, if your projectiles hit him while he was trying to Illusion to the stage, all you need to do is let go of the ledge, DI towards Fox, and either Nair him or even Dair him. It takes some practice to get down, so practice it as much as possible until you become comfortable with it. You'll have to throw your projectile as soon as you throw/hit Fox off the ledge, so Fox has less time to recover. Also, this is not guaranteed to work 100% of the time, as if they catch on, they can just Foxfire or Illusion way above you and onto the stage to avoid the gimp. This is commonly avoided since they are left defenseless if they recover onto the stage, and you should punish it accordingly.

Basically, it's a battle of spacing against Fox, one that he loses horribly. I don't think this matchup is too much in Toon Link's favor, as Fox is pretty fast, and is likely to get some hits in if you mess up. His Usmash kills at early percents, to be exact, on Final Destination with no DI, it kills Toon Link at 90%. Yeah, stay away from his Usmash. He can combo you until between 30 and 40 percent if you're not careful. So, Fox has the ability to kill you early, and also deal some damage if he gets into your range. Toon Link has the ability to keep Fox away by smart projectile use, and mid range camping. He can kill Fox at early percents also, even if it isn't as early as Fox can kill him. Toon Link can gimp Fox's recover pretty hard, so he should die a roughly estimated 1/3 times he is off of the stage. Remember, Fox can kill you early...But he shouldn't be able to touch you. That's the key. As Isai's famous advice goes, "Don't get hit." It shouldn't be that hard to do, due to Toon Link's ability to obliterate Fox's horrible approaches. I rate this match 6/10 in Toon Link's favor.

I'm not positive on the gimping game of either character but both should be able to gimp each other pretty easily. If Fox gets boomerang'd while doing his illusion he could possibly illusion again and zoom right at TL due to the raise but no one would honestly do that.

Also, they never mention the shine stall, which will usually pull away most TL strategies.

 

[M@v]

Alright well the Toon Link boards have it listed as 4:6 and here's what they wrote down. Feel free to comment.



I'm not positive on the gimping game of either character but both should be able to gimp each other pretty easily. If Fox gets boomerang'd while doing his illusion he could possibly illusion again and zoom right at TL due to the raise but no one would honestly do that.

Also, they never mention the shine stall, which will usually pull away most TL strategies.

did you also notice that the last edit date for that post 6-18-08? Im going to make a post in the TL forums about this matchup, so we can get an up to date view.

 

[KheldarVII]

did you also notice that the last edit date for that post 6-18-08? Im going to make a post in the TL forums about this matchup, so we can get an up to date view.

Yes. Yes I did.

 

[Santi]

I'd say 6:4 Fox.

Maybe even, but I really feel Fox has the advantage.

 

[KheldarVII]

I'd say 6:4 Fox.

Maybe even, but I really feel Fox has the advantage.

I'd love to hear you elaborate. You know, just for giggles.

 

[Lightning93]

DONT USE WIFI AS YOUR MAIN EVALUATOR.

I never do, all I was saying is that Fox has a big disadvantage from it, rather than DK. Although I may have worded it wrong, I apologize for any misinterpretations or misunderstandings.

Goto this it's a huge tourney over winter break near you. See you there.

Possibly, but I actually intend to go this weekend, actually tomorrow for my next tourney.

http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=3480

Any chance you can still make it? I would love to meet someone I know online in rl. Although I may be able to attend one of those later dates. My parents don't really approve of videogame tourneys however so I'm getting lucky being able to attend tomorrow anyways.

Now onto Toon Link:

I have a toon link main at my school, and I must say it seems about even. The annoying part of TL's strategy really is his ability to stop approach, because they not only have stunning projectiles (3 of them), but also the ability to bunnyhop. This combined can be very annoying because if you try to shine an projectile, a TL can airdodge and lead it into a auto canceled z-air.

Unfortunately he doesn't play me seriously often but it's about an average fight, both characters can kill fairly well, but Fox has the better combo play. This however is countered by lack of approach. This is like the DDK matchup in which you can rack damage fairly easily, but it may be hard getting in. Their use of the f-smash I haven't seen to often however, but that hitbox is freaking annoying. Even if you land behind the TL his sword will somehow bring you around and throw you the other way, just be wary.

 

[Lightning93]

OMG IT'S SANTI. Lol my friend idolizes you, I admire your TL as well, but please we would all like to hear your disposition on this matchup.

 

[Santi]

I'd love to hear you elaborate. You know, just for giggles.

Fox is faster, and he's harder to spam against since his speed allows him to create distance quick. Toon Link's projectiles don't have much range so it can be a real task to hit fox with bombs/arrows.

Fox can kill easier then TL can.
Both characters can gimp one another, but IMO it's much easier/safer for Fox to do it then it is for Toon Link.

They both juggle/combo eachother fairly well, but Fox's are more lethal and pile on the damage.

TL can put up a wall, but TL's wall of **** has a weakness.
From above.

That's why I have trouble with Wario's/Dair campy MK's.

Keeping Fox infront of you with distance is no problem, he's no marth. His range and move set doesn't allow him to put a lot of pressure when yall are face to face.

Fox can avoid the Zair/nairs/arrows/bomb throws/ by coming over the top.
TL doesn't have much to stop him. Our Uair and Utilt is good out of shield but if the Fox plays smart and shines and stalls before attacking from the top... we get punished from our not so good Up moves.

I have the most success with Bair since it covers my back and a little over my head, but that can only do so much and there's ways around that as well.

Fox's dash attack can really disrupt our SH aerials.
Then we know the Utilts are coming.


What else do you want me to elaborate on?

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Long Range=Fox's advantage
Close Range=Fox's advantage
Mid-range= Toon Link simply *****

At least even.

 

[Sosuke]

Fox's recovery is fun to try to gimp. Not exactly "easy", but very fun.

Fox seems to be prone to getting grabbed by TL. Its really weird, but something about Fox (maybe the way he gets knocked back) makes him seem very combo-able with grabs.

I can't stand getting shined when I recover, so I usually just keep bombs out a lot when I have anything over 70%.

Boomerangs are stupid to use against Fox.

Fox's illusion recovery is annoying to say the least. TL can Zair it though. Recovering smart with fox is really important here. No dropping from the ledge, jumping and using illusion towards Toon Link repeatedly is dumb. Don't do it.

Fox's Usmash kills really early so TL shouldn't be above Fox much.

Fox should just try to be under or above TL a lot. But thats just how I feel.

I got nothin else for now.

 

[Zhamy]

About even, I'd say slightly in Fox's favor. Anywhere from 55:45 to 60:40. And what they said.

 

[PhilMcCloud17]

OMG IT'S SANTI. Lol my friend idolizes you, I admire your TL as well, but please we would all like to hear your disposition on this matchup.

this is off-topic but......... it just hit me that alot of people on this site are celebrities in the smash community. thats pretty cool.

 

[PhilMcCloud17]

Long Range=Fox's advantage
Close Range=Fox's advantage
Mid-range= Toon Link simply *****

At least even.

It would be a Fox adv in this case then. As the saying goes "it takes 2 to tango" so if TL tries to get in mid range Fox can step-up or back to get the win right?

 

[M@v]

In all my experiences against TL, a LOT of them tryed to spam me to death. It isnt hard to beat with fox; shine the boomerang and arrows. Then use to speed to avoid the slow bombs. There goes TL spam game. TL got some good kill moves, but you have Upsmash. That ends that argument. Off stage you can gimp him and he can gimp you. All your combos work on TL; just watch out for uair.



6:4 fox.

 

[Galanoth7395]

First, you must note that Toon Link can block blaster spam from a standstill because of the shield. Second, Toon Link has a crazy arsenal of combos and mindgames, not to mention awesome recovery. Third, he pretty much beats all your aerials. I'd have to say about 35:65.

 

[Galanoth7395]

LOL, he made that post right when I posted XD

I completely forgot about the shine. Yeah, I've gotta agree with 60:40.

 

[Lightning93]

That made a difference....

See the thing I'm worried about here is TL ability to STAY mid-range. Even from long distance a few boomerangs, arrows, combine with bunnyhops can get him back in. It sounds like overall we have the advantage so I say 55:45 Fox. TL just seems annoyingly difficult to approach, so unless there are some surefire ways to do this I won't necessarily call this 60:40.

 

[KheldarVII]

Does anyone know if a laser is shielding/blocked does it still get decayed and therefore refresh Fox's other moves? If not then the shield isn't really stopping Fox from laser spam at long range.

 

[Galanoth7395]

Does anyone know if a laser is shielding/blocked does it still get decayed and therefore refresh Fox's other moves? If not then the shield isn't really stopping Fox from laser spam at long range.

Yeah, and besides, who heard of a TL player that stood still?

I sounded really stupid in that first post XD

 

[Lightning93]

I fought bigfoot last night, he was really good. May I just say, NEVER pick Jungle Japes. He klap trap combo-ed me all 3 lives. Also the high ceiling really sucks bad. This match-up really is about even, you can't juggle him too much but f-airs work wonders. Taking him to the air is a bit risky unless your approaching from the front, and not the back or underneath. Make sure to use your grabs when DK approaches, and as for your approach the key here is to always be moving back and forth to bait a tilt, then spring immediately from the air. The monkey punch is deadly, but remember DK will be using it mainly to kill. It has so much range that if you get spiked back down to the stage DK can fast fall after you from the sky and finish you off with a deadly hit. It it is true though, gimping DK with SS is quite difficult, I suggest using a drill from above and away from his hands is the best option. It doesn't have to be a shine drill even, because you will have already taken his second jump if you drill his recovery.

So yeah, um... DK is a powerhouse and can send Fox flying and brutally spike him, but Fox can land massive damage using combos and can avoid being hit using speed if playing smart. DK can gimp Fox better in this matchup, but DK is still very susceptible to combos.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

again reinforcing the fact that DK is combolicious lol. any stage that works more in our favor over dK?

 

[Lightning93]

Flat stages seemed to be the best way to go. You have plenty of space to run, and DK is more out in the open. DK's seem to like more platforms.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Ermmm u guys discussed the TL matchup all by yourself? Where are the TL mains? Anyway, fox doesnt have the advantage in this matchup thats a big NO. Ur spam doesnt even exist. And how can u give the advantage to fox just because of the reflector? Anyway, u kill us pretty fast with ur usmash but u cant combo us (yes u cant combo us) and approaching is very hard against us. Uptilt ***** fox. Zair outranges everything u have gives us openings and from there we can either grab or nair if it hits. Our bair combos fox and utilt too. Our Fsmash is dificult to land but when it does Di'ing up cant save fox from the second hit if we're fast enough. Allowing us to kill u in FD at the middle at 90ish percents even with DI. Just like ur usmash. I say its pretty even but a little advantage to TL if he plays smart fox cant even approach. And fox's recovery is more gimpable. We can stop illsion with arrows and then when u fox fire we can swat u with nair or heck even dair. Oh a little advice for foxes dontpick yoshi;s island or lylat cruise ull get gimped with only one hit. Dsmash gimps fox real hard in slanted stages. Ive played a lot of foxes already in tournies and friendlies but almost all of them while good fail to kill my TL. I say it is 60:40 TL or 55:45 TL at worst. And no this is not a biased post. I know the matchup.

 

[Conviction]

Fox is faster, and he's harder to spam against since his speed allows him to create distance quick. Toon Link's projectiles don't have much range so it can be a real task to hit fox with bombs/arrows.

Fox can kill easier then TL can.
Both characters can gimp one another, but IMO it's much easier/safer for Fox to do it then it is for Toon Link.

They both juggle/combo eachother fairly well, but Fox's are more lethal and pile on the damage.

TL can put up a wall, but TL's wall of **** has a weakness.
From above.

That's why I have trouble with Wario's/Dair campy MK's.

Keeping Fox infront of you with distance is no problem, he's no marth. His range and move set doesn't allow him to put a lot of pressure when yall are face to face.

Fox can avoid the Zair/nairs/arrows/bomb throws/ by coming over the top.
TL doesn't have much to stop him. Our Uair and Utilt is good out of shield but if the Fox plays smart and shines and stalls before attacking from the top... we get punished from our not so good Up moves.

I have the most success with Bair since it covers my back and a little over my head, but that can only do so much and there's ways around that as well.

Fox's dash attack can really disrupt our SH aerials.
Then we know the Utilts are coming.


What else do you want me to elaborate on?

Fox's recovery is fun to try to gimp. Not exactly "easy", but very fun.

Fox seems to be prone to getting grabbed by TL. Its really weird, but something about Fox (maybe the way he gets knocked back) makes him seem very combo-able with grabs.

I can't stand getting shined when I recover, so I usually just keep bombs out a lot when I have anything over 70%.

Boomerangs are stupid to use against Fox.

Fox's illusion recovery is annoying to say the least. TL can Zair it though. Recovering smart with fox is really important here. No dropping from the ledge, jumping and using illusion towards Toon Link repeatedly is dumb. Don't do it.

Fox's Usmash kills really early so TL shouldn't be above Fox much.

Fox should just try to be under or above TL a lot. But thats just how I feel.

I got nothin else for now.

Ermmm u guys discussed the TL matchup all by yourself? Where are the TL mains? Anyway, fox doesnt have the advantage in this matchup thats a big NO. Ur spam doesnt even exist. And how can u give the advantage to fox just because of the reflector? Anyway, u kill us pretty fast with ur usmash but u cant combo us (yes u cant combo us) and approaching is very hard against us. Uptilt ***** fox. Zair outranges everything u have gives us openings and from there we can either grab or nair if it hits. Our bair combos fox and utilt too. Our Fsmash is dificult to land but when it does Di'ing up cant save fox from the second hit if we're fast enough. Allowing us to kill u in FD at the middle at 90ish percents even with DI. Just like ur usmash. I say its pretty even but a little advantage to TL if he plays smart fox cant even approach. And fox's recovery is more gimpable. We can stop illsion with arrows and then when u fox fire we can swat u with nair or heck even dair. Oh a little advice for foxes dontpick yoshi;s island or lylat cruise ull get gimped with only one hit. Dsmash gimps fox real hard in slanted stages. Ive played a lot of foxes already in tournies and friendlies but almost all of them while good fail to kill my TL. I say it is 60:40 TL or 55:45 TL at worst. And no this is not a biased post. I know the matchup.

Aren't thos TL Players? Kill me if you say Santi isnt.

 

[Lightning93]

Lol I was about to say the same thing. And yeah I agree z-air combined with projectile volleying is hard to get around, but you forget Foxes can be smart as well -.-. We have autocancelled SHDL to shine, to dash shine, to SH n-air. All we have to do is cover ourselves and be speedy at the same time.

 

[Conviction]

Lol I was about to say the same thing. And yeah I agree z-air combined with projectile volleying is hard to get around, but you forget Foxes can be smart as well -.-. We have autocancelled SHDL to shine, to dash shine, to SH n-air. All we have to do is cover ourselves and be speedy at the same time.

Aren't RL Foxes Fast, quick-witted, and clever, so why cant humans playing a Fox?

 

[TLMSheikant]

XD i didnt see santi discussing i kinda just looked at this page and forgot to look at the others. My bad. But i still think it is TL's advantage or heck put it even.

 

[Zhamy]

Ermmm u guys discussed the TL matchup all by yourself? Where are the TL mains? Anyway, fox doesnt have the advantage in this matchup thats a big NO. Ur spam doesnt even exist. And how can u give the advantage to fox just because of the reflector? Anyway, u kill us pretty fast with ur usmash but u cant combo us (yes u cant combo us) and approaching is very hard against us. Uptilt ***** fox. Zair outranges everything u have gives us openings and from there we can either grab or nair if it hits. Our bair combos fox and utilt too. Our Fsmash is dificult to land but when it does Di'ing up cant save fox from the second hit if we're fast enough. Allowing us to kill u in FD at the middle at 90ish percents even with DI. Just like ur usmash. I say its pretty even but a little advantage to TL if he plays smart fox cant even approach. And fox's recovery is more gimpable. We can stop illsion with arrows and then when u fox fire we can swat u with nair or heck even dair. Oh a little advice for foxes dontpick yoshi;s island or lylat cruise ull get gimped with only one hit. Dsmash gimps fox real hard in slanted stages. Ive played a lot of foxes already in tournies and friendlies but almost all of them while good fail to kill my TL. I say it is 60:40 TL or 55:45 TL at worst. And no this is not a biased post.I know the matchup.

I took the liberty of highlighting all the things that show you obviously don't know the matchup.

1) Yes, Fox's spam does exist. No, it's not as useful in this matchup. Learn about logic and word choice.

2) We did not give Fox the advantage because of the reflector; you obviously didn't read anything written on the matchup closely enough.

3) Yes, we can combo you. Dair hitconfirms into a number of things, if you're talking about guaranteed combos, and Fox's DI followups are no slouch either. Have you never played a single Fox that Dair->Utilted? Apparently not.

4) Why the hell is Fox approaching? It is hard, but you're presenting a rather unlikely situation. We can reflector and dodge your projectiles all day. For the most part, there's no need to approach.

5) This statement simply makes no sense. Where is your idea of upwards DI coming from? What does it mean when you say "fast enough?"

6) No, it's not just like like Usmash. Do you have anything that hitconfirms into Fsmash at killing percentages? Can you reverse OOS into Fsmash? Didn't think so.

7) if if if if if if if if if

8) What does this even mean? You'll get gimped "with one hit?" What hit are you talking about?

9) Dsmash does not gimp. You know why? Because Dsmash doesn't fit the definition of a gimp.

10) So you've 3 stocked every single Fox you've played?

11) Yes, it is a biased post. It would be less so if you employed decent logic, but most, if not all, text inherently has bias.

12) You apparently do not know the matchup.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I took the liberty of highlighting all the things that show you obviously don't know the matchup.

1) Yes, Fox's spam does exist. No, it's not as useful in this matchup. Learn about logic and word choice.

My bad it does exist but its nowhere near useful.

2) We did not give Fox the advantage because of the reflector; you obviously didn't read anything written on the matchup closely enough.

I didnt read everything and i apologize.

3) Yes, we can combo you. Dair hitconfirms into a number of things, if you're talking about guaranteed combos, and Fox's DI followups are no slouch either. Have you never played a single Fox that Dair->Utilted? Apparently not.

Yes, i know that dair utilt works already. But IF u get that dair off.

4) Why the hell is Fox approaching? It is hard, but you're presenting a rather unlikely situation. We can reflector and dodge your projectiles all day. For the most part, there's no need to approach.

Who said that we need proyectiles to win? Is it the only way u think TL can win? We can just distract u with them and punish ur reflector. Did u take that into account? Or is reflector just too godly? lawl

5) This statement simply makes no sense. Where is your idea of upwards DI coming from? What does it mean when you say "fast enough?"

I meant Di upwards+jump will not save u from our second hit if we input the second hit fast enough. Get it now?
6) No, it's not just like like Usmash. Do you have anything that hitconfirms into Fsmash at killing percentages? Can you reverse OOS into Fsmash? Didn't think so.

U have a point there. But i never implied it was easy to hit u with it. I just meant knockback power.
7) if if if if if if if if if

IF IF IF ur also basing a lot of ur replies on IFs too.

8) What does this even mean? You'll get gimped "with one hit?" What hit are you talking about?

I see ur ignorance now. Dsmash has a glitch that if im standing in a slanted part of the stage and u get hit by it it'll send u horizontally and down with a lot of knockback. But im guessing u wouldn't know that right? 9) Dsmash does not gimp. You know why? Because Dsmash doesn't fit the definition of a gimp.

Well it technically gimps u because u cant make it back to the stage.
10) So you've 3 stocked every single Fox you've played?

No.

11) Yes, it is a biased post. It would be less so if you employed decent logic, but most, if not all, text inherently has bias.

Ur biased too.

12) You apparently do not know the matchup.

I know it more than u.

My replies in the quote.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

I took the liberty of highlighting all the things that show you obviously don't know the matchup.

1) Yes, Fox's spam does exist. No, it's not as useful in this matchup. Learn about logic and word choice.

2) We did not give Fox the advantage because of the reflector; you obviously didn't read anything written on the matchup closely enough.

3) Yes, we can combo you. Dair hitconfirms into a number of things, if you're talking about guaranteed combos, and Fox's DI followups are no slouch either. Have you never played a single Fox that Dair->Utilted? Apparently not.

4) Why the hell is Fox approaching? It is hard, but you're presenting a rather unlikely situation. We can reflector and dodge your projectiles all day. For the most part, there's no need to approach.

5) This statement simply makes no sense. Where is your idea of upwards DI coming from? What does it mean when you say "fast enough?"

6) No, it's not just like like Usmash. Do you have anything that hitconfirms into Fsmash at killing percentages? Can you reverse OOS into Fsmash? Didn't think so.

7) if if if if if if if if if

8) What does this even mean? You'll get gimped "with one hit?" What hit are you talking about?

9) Dsmash does not gimp. You know why? Because Dsmash doesn't fit the definition of a gimp.

10) So you've 3 stocked every single Fox you've played?

11) Yes, it is a biased post. It would be less so if you employed decent logic, but most, if not all, text inherently has bias.

12) You apparently do not know the matchup.

*gives award for best scrub ****** ever.*

Good ****.

6:4 Fox.

 

[TLMSheikant]

*gives award for best scrub ****** ever.*

Good ****.

6:4 Fox.

Now that i see my posts i see that my post DID sound a little biased and arrogant. But that just comes from english not being my primary language. But whatever, its not like matchup numbers are the end of the world. And calling me a scrub is really stupid i'd like to see how u would fair in a match against me.

 

[Zhamy]

My bad it does exist but its nowhere near useful.

Do you know how it's used?

Yes, i know that dair utilt works already. But IF u get that dair off.

I never said anything about landing it. Your statement was that Fox cannot combo Toon Link. I provided a clear example that he can.

Who said that we need proyectiles to win? Is it the only way u think TL can win? We can just distract u with them and punish ur reflector. Did u take that into account? Or is reflector just too godly? lawl

I never said anything of the sort. And I'm wondering how you plan to punish reflector. At what range are you going to fire your projectiles where we can't use the 1-3F suki to respace through reflector? If you don't know the matchup, don't make stuff up.

IF IF IF ur also basing a lot of ur replies on IFs too.

Where?

I see ur ignorance now. Dsmash has a glitch that if im standing in a slanted part of the stage and u get hit by it it'll send u horizontally and down with a lot of knockback. But im guessing u wouldn't know that right?

Actually, you're still wrong. That's not a "glitch," and what you said had nothing to do with my original question. All I asked was What hit are you talking about?

Well it technically gimps u because u cant make it back to the stage.

You're still wrong. Usmash makes it so you can't make it back to the stage. Is that a gimp? No.

No.

Then don't say that every Fox has failed to kill your Toon Link.

Ur biased too.

Did I ever say I wasn't?

I know it more than u.

Trust me, you don't. None of the information you've provided has been helpful in the slightest, you've used broad generalizations that fall apart in real play, you have no idea what Fox can do in the matchup, you don't understand what the best options for Toon Link are in specific situations, and you haven't analyzed ****.