Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[Lightning93]

That would be great. But I'm sure not all of what we have previously stated isn't true, so we just need some more definite aspects of this matchup and some strong numbers.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah like Light said, its not that its not true, the problem is we don't have alot of complete absolutes so far. and ty Praxis.

 

[Donkey Bong]

ok i main DK and i've played against a really good fox here in dallas
what happened was this
our first match: fox was all over the place, comboing the crap out of my DK and i didnt have time to blink before the match was over

our second match: i learned to perfect shield fox's attacks and counter attack his combos, which are the bread and butter of fox's game.

so i guess the first time you'll play against a DK it will seem like an easy win, but i think that after playing the match a bit DK will be able to mess fox up. DK wins in terms of range and kill power.

 

[KheldarVII]

our second match: i learned to perfect shield fox's attacks and counter attack his combos, which are the bread and butter of fox's game.

I do believe the bread and butter of Fox is his lasers and U-smash.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

apparently that guy fought a Fox who didn't learn how to mix up well lol.

 

[Lightning93]

Bread : Speed, Shines, Lasers, PWG, Combos

Butter : Sexiness

Bread is what gets the job done, butter is what it makes it taste so good.

An advanced guide to Fox.

 

[Lightning93]

Okay now that thats out of the way let's analyze what Donkey Bong said.

The overall message I received, is if you play a non Fox experienced DK, you will win pretty easily. If you're not, the match evens out more, but to give you back your advantage you have to become less predictable, which is an important component to winning all matches.

 

[Conviction]

Ok, hold the phone. I've been offline for most of yesterday but reading xIblisx's posts from my iPhone and really itching to reply.



I can tell. You're proposing scenarios which are extremely unlikely in order to give the matchup advantage to Fox. The Ganondorf boards did the same thing >.> ("we have no options to punish dair against shield? Well, if you're approaching with dair we can just...RAR uair." "why would we ever approach with dair from a distance allowing you to do that?" ).

I get the distinct impression that you have never faced a good Peach player, and don't understand both her mechanics and the basic strategies a Peach player would use.

Let's review.




I responded to the first quote confused, thinking you were talking about running into Peach's floating dair at head height and shielding, then trying to grab her. Two obvious things wrong with that picture:

1: She'd be floating too high for you to grab- usmash would be better.

2: The Peach should NOT be just sitting there floating. Float is not a defensive posture. There should be no reason that Fox would have to "approach" the float. The Peach should jump into the float during aggression, while at close range when you don't have time to prepare something about it, or using it as a spacing tool while in the air or when throwing turnips.

But then you made the second post, and I realized; you think the Peach is going to be groundfloating?? (instafloating at ground height)

This scenario will never happen. Peaches don't groundfloat except for out of shield aerials. They always instafloat at a desired height (say, at head height, or above Fox's usmash range). They're CERTAINLY not going to be groundfloating and waiting for Fox to approach them- the idea is ridiculous.

You're proposing scenarios a Peach player will never put themselves in, and then finding ways for Fox to beat it. Same thing the Ganondorfs did.




Let's look at your supposed Fox advantages.



Explain please. We already established that Peach's GROUND GAME (which you aren't even considering) outprioritizes and beats all of Fox's aerial approaches, and that Peach edgeguards Fox extremely well.



Explain again. You brought out Shine Spiking, which is another unlikely scenario. It doesn't send the player that far down, so you're going to have to catch the Peach when she is even with or below stage level. You have to approach from a diagonal-down angle, which means the Peach can simply up-B you, or toad if she's high enough that she won't die. Further, if she's floating to recover, she has enough maneuverability to back up and fair you.

If the Peach DI'd badly and is recovering extremely low and out of float and using forward-B to recover and you intercept that with a shine-spike, I can see that. Fox can potentially gimp Peach, but not easily or consistently, and he can't edgeguard her that well. She'll get back to the stage.



Wait, what? Explain.



This is outright wrong. Peach is heavier than Fox. Also, it's worth noting that due to Fox's fast-falling nature, Peach has 40-50% combos on him off of her easiest to land move (Dair) and a 40% chaingrab.



How is this a significant matchup-changing advantage? *confused*


You've also been going on about Fox's uair possibly beating Peach's aerials, but it's really not a situation I can see happening. Peach has too much aerial control with her float- she'll be using her fair defensively to keep you at bay.


xIblisx, you are trying too hard to make a matchup you don't know into 50-50. I'm not here arguing for some massive disadvantage to Fox, but everything coming out of your mouth betrays a complete lack of understanding of Peach's moveset. This post is not meant as an insult to you, but you keep throwing weird stuff out there and then coming to conclusions based on it and then labeling the matchup 50-50.

Come into matchup threads with the intention of discussing, NOT with a pre-determined number in your head that you want to force the matchup to be.

It's worth noting that most of the people in this thread who have experience with the matchup put it in Peach's favor, and Edrees (who put it at 60-40) has more experience with Peach vs Fox at high levels of play than anyone here (he regularly practices with Champ!).

I put it at 55-45 Peach myself.




Aren't matchup threads usually supposed to assume high levels of play? I agree that it's even at lower levels of play, when the Peach tends to overuse float (lining herself up for usmash kills) and would have a harder time edgeguarding the Fox with turnips + nair. But at higher levels, Peach has a clear advantage, and I think that's all that matters.



Sorry if this post came across wrong. I was a bit frustrated with xIblisx's post (having been unable to reply to them from my phone xD ) and am trying to address them all at once- I don't intend to come across as mad or mean.

No problem, I just been trying to contrubute to the Fox boards even my brawl isn't working.
But did get some play in, and was wondering where the rest of peaches because i was kind of second guessing my self

EDIT: Sorry i felt out now that we moved on

 

[Conviction]

Well DK can't accurately be matched let's do Link

 

[JigglyZelda003]

we want to get all of the higherups over before we move to lower tiers. thats why i say we go Lucario or Mario if were gonna postpone DK for now. although the Zelda boards just did CF a little while ago for random reasons though. @.@

 

[crifer]

yeah it´s better to go on, I main DK and second Fox, and played some matches in a online tourney and friendlies with DK against fox and I can say that the only way for Fox to approach DK is dash attack through him or mindgames to pivot grab, bc DK can uptilt or upsmash through fox Dair and up angled ftilt against any other aerial approach, gimping his recovery can only be done by dair> shine, but good DK´s with decent DI will side b to stop momentum and then recover,
I think it´s pretty much even a good fox can give DK a hard time

 

[KheldarVII]

Basically, Fox wants DK in the air so it will be much easier for him. That's one of his advantages, especially facing a SH'd DK facing forward. That will rarely happen though, unless Fox moves around that way.

I say move onto Lucario then.

 

[Lightning93]

So, it's only because both sides are unfamiliar with the opposing character? We should probably arrange some matches then, or to make it more fun a tournament! But I'm getting ahead of myself, I just want to make sure our current discussion won't be forgotten, I don't really want to start over, but I'm sure we won't have to. M@V is going to have a hard time labeling the table of contents, we don't have anymore matchup picture starters or summaries... we just kind of move along...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah poor M@v, but it might be for the best at this time seeing as how the DK discussion has been with lack of exp on both sides. and he's been busy lately so thats why we don't have pictures and such lately......

maybe we should take a quick poll for a day to see if we have people with some (insert character for discussions name) and ask the board ahead of time to for people who have exp to drop in as well to avoid the DK thing all over again.

 

[M@v]

Lol ill figure it out. Im probably not available tonight ot tomorrow. Im packing tonight and heading pack to penn state tomorrow to finish the last 2 weeks of the semester.

Also I got to do all the work that was meant to be done over Thanksgiving break

 

[Ripple]

So, it's only because both sides are unfamiliar with the opposing character? We should probably arrange some matches then, or to make it more fun a tournament! But I'm getting ahead of myself, I just want to make sure our current discussion won't be forgotten, I don't really want to start over, but I'm sure we won't have to. M@V is going to have a hard time labeling the table of contents, we don't have anymore matchup picture starters or summaries... we just kind of move along...:

I actually like the idea of having a little tournament of the respected fox players vs. the DK players. we could have something like a round robin of about 5 players of each character playing. we could have it so that each person plays each of the opposing players from the other forum. this would greatly help both sides analyze each person's skill level as well as the match up.

does that sound fun to everyone? if we had forum battles

 

[Lightning93]

I actually like the idea of having a little tournament of the respected fox players vs. the DK players. we could have something like a round robin of about 5 players of each character playing. we could have it so that each person plays each of the opposing players from the other forum. this would greatly help both sides analyze each person's skill level as well as the match up.

does that sound fun to everyone? if we had forum battles

That would be freaking awesome. But even if people wanted me to participate (which would be an honor if they would) I is banned from all Wii related activities for a month and a half. (Although I might be able to unban myself somehow.)

 

[Conviction]

I actually like the idea of having a little tournament of the respected fox players vs. the DK players. we could have something like a round robin of about 5 players of each character playing. we could have it so that each person plays each of the opposing players from the other forum. this would greatly help both sides analyze each person's skill level as well as the match up.

does that sound fun to everyone? if we had forum battles

Oh yea that sounds amazing I think this is how it would help the disscussion start a forum match of said character then disscuss then redo the forum match to confim the disscussion

 

[JigglyZelda003]

the idea would be kinda fun. we should take a vote on it.

 

[Lightning93]

FIRST VOTE! Click link for answer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBwwUfuJZr8

 

[Ripple]

FIRST VOTE! Click link for answer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBwwUfuJZr8

the best part was at 3:20 lol lol lol lol lol


YES! also

2 votes yes

btw how do you get banned from all wii online activity?

 

[Lightning93]

how do you get banned from all wii online activity?

Your Dad... apparently I'm not allowed to take a 5 min break after doing 2 hours of homework -.-...

the best part was at 3:20

Dang that whole video was 10/10 I can't pick one specific part...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Your Dad... apparently I'm not allowed to take a 5 min break after doing 2 hours of homework -.-...



Dang that whole video was 10/10 I can't pick one specific part...

poor light lol. and yes the vid was epic. i guess i vote for it too, so thats 3 votes.

 

[Conviction]

Hey look at bright side light your dont have the disc reading error.
Back on topic: 4 Votes!

 

[Toronto Joe]

are we still doing peach or have we moved on to DK?

i see the matchup 60-40 Fox if we are talking about DK.......you can pull off combos on DK that will give you an early and definitive advantage on each stock, he can be juggled in the air, SH f-airs work on the ground flawlessly, you can shine drill shine DK, if the DK gives you problems you can just laser camp(laser camping vs DK is just unfair), ive never lost to a DK online or irl in a set, DK cant keep up with Fox

 

[Veggi]

I'll vote "YEHS" on the online battle thing.

 

[Toronto Joe]

oh yeah same here^^

 

[Lightning93]

Well Toronto, I agree with you, but our problem is that each side of the matchup is unfamiliar with the opposing character's high level play, and there are too many numbers to consider a general one, so that is why we must start a tournament to solve this problem. From what the matches show, is how we get our numbers.

Hey look at bright side light your dont have the disc reading error.

I used to get it... but all I would have to do was take out the disc, turn off my Wii, turn it back on, and re-insert the disc.

But you're right, I finally learned how to solve a Rubik's cube because of amount of time spent without Brawl during my Thanksgiving break... yay...

 

[Ripple]

are we still doing peach or have we moved on to DK?

i see the matchup 60-40 Fox if we are talking about DK.......you can pull off combos on DK that will give you an early and definitive advantage on each stock, he can be juggled in the air, SH f-airs work on the ground flawlessly, you can shine drill shine DK, if the DK gives you problems you can just laser camp(laser camping vs DK is just unfair), ive never lost to a DK online or irl in a set, DK cant keep up with Fox

Yeah but how many "good" DK players do you meet. There are so few good ones right now its not even funny. DK is by far the least popular character in the game, and therefor, not many good peple.

unless you've played Bum, CBK, Jingo Joe, OOK, Bigfoot, or myself, you haven't played top DK's before

 

[Toronto Joe]

never said i played the best, i simply stated from my experience with the matchup i think it is in Foxs favor.......and DK is not the most underused, hes a great char and one of my Doubles mains........i think Link is the most underused character but thats another discussion in its own right XD

EDIT: i played OOK on wifi(wifi means nothing but ill never get the chance to play him offline so this is all i gotl) and i 2 stocked him

 

[Lightning93]

Well wi-fi does prove something, it obviously gives some certain advantages and disadvantages to certain characters, but generally it makes it harder for both players to win...

 

[gantrain05]

wifi sucks for fox, you guys shouldn't base matchups on wifi experience, imo fox is one of the characters that is hurt the most by the lag on wifi.

 

[Toronto Joe]

we never based any matchups off of wifi, i even said myself wifi means nothing, ive played Dks irl and its the same result however..........and yes fox is much better offline

 

[M@v]

Well wi-fi does prove something, it obviously gives some certain advantages and disadvantages to certain characters, but generally it makes it harder for both players to win...

wifi is terrible for everyone, let alone fox, who reliess on speed and LAGLESS INPUT *cough*wifi*cough*

btw bear with me the next two weeks....I got finals Dec.15th and 17th, And there is a huge smash tourney(30+) with some of the best players in the state on the 6th im going to. Basically, when Im not studying, I am going to be practicing.

 

[Lightning93]

LAGLESS INPUT LAG

Lol I love when people say this. Also it's okay I have finals coming up as well, but I can't attend any tourneys or practice so I'm just going to wait right here.

Lol I win a lot during wi-fi matches with Fox, but whenever I go offline I either play my bro, or a pro (I had to rhyme), or my friends. We're all really good, so I guess I don't get much chance to really compare myself... but when I do match-ups I don't take into account the limitations of wi-fi, so nobody has to worry.

My main point here is that playing an online tourney is probably our best option unless someone wants to arrange something else in rl.

 

[M@v]

i fixed that typo. SHHHHHHHHHH

 

[Toronto Joe]

online tourney is cool, just match up the DKs with the Foxs who live closest to one another, it should work

 

[JigglyZelda003]

even with Wifi exp we try to count what a IRL fight would be like. i think we all know jab jab quick rapid jab> Fsmash> Usmash is not a combo with Fox offline. and theres no Usmash train from Zelda.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

What difference does it make to the Peach matchup whether or not Fox is good online? You guys said that you won't be basing it off of Wifi...

 

[Lightning93]

It doesn't make a difference lol. Right now we're talking about DK, but we're discussing if we should host an online tourney or not...