Fox for Top-tier! New technique and play style!!

[usoppspell]

I wrote a HUGE *** thread starter explaining everything in extreme detail. My computer crashed. I will not write a 1000 word essay again. Here it is in a nutshell. Enjoy.

I will NOT explain why this rules all. It makes instant top-tier. This is not a joke thread. I won't explain everything from the get-go, but I will answer any and all questions you may have.

The concept: Shorthopairdodging (SHADing for short) behind an enemy and buffer an uptilt for a 1-frame startup attack that punishes any and all attempts to hit fox. Can only be beat by attacks whose hitboxes stay out and behind them upon your landing, like wario's or gameandwatch's downsmash, but only if they perform it before you land. Otherwise unpunishable ultimate defensive and offensive combo. Try it out. Mix it up with Running shield grabs to downthrow to fairs or uairs. If opponent rolls techchase and grab to downthrow to fair or uair. This makes fox's approach game the best in the game. Works so well because of his fallspeed (fastest in the game) and his utilt attack when his back is to the enemy, which comes out incredibly fast (1 frame), deals a constant 10%, and is comboable to additional utilts, shorthop nairs and other aerials..

By the way, Kheldar made a vid showing the technique at one point. Check it out!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHBmldvS-g8

This is revolutionary try it out or ask questions but it is very easy to learn, perform consistently and own everything with it. All the other characters approaches are rendered near useless and all characters besides fox become offensively ****ty. This is because fox retains invincibility frames all throughout the airdodge, making the window for punishment (provided you buffer the utilt before landing) only 3-frames long. This is why you can only be hit by well timed attacks whose hitbox is active when you land. Essentially you will dodge all attacks aimed at you and punish with extreme ease. All shorthop aerials by ALL characters are punished upon landing, included the obscenely safe and previously cheap gameandwatch fishbowl, and allmost all attacks that take more than 7ish frames to perform are also punished. It is important to land behind opponents so they cant shieldgrab the attack. If you land in front of them, buffer a jab combo to mix it up, for the same speed and effectiveness, alhtough it can ofcourse be shieldgrabbed with good timing and powershielding. Also if you land in front of them you can go for a shieldgrab. Basically Fox's metagame evolves greatly if you just SHAD and go from there, ocassionally dashing to running shieldgrab, as well as the old school dair combo approaches to mix it up and keep opponents guessing.

Before the flaming begins, try it out. If it's not working you didn't get the concept right. I swear it will change your entire game. The world shall fear Fox, mainers rejoice.

 

[KheldarVII]

I'll look into it, I guess.

 

[-Mars-]

Ya lets not get all that excited about this, might not even be much of anything. I think the concept is pretty interesting and a good idea, but your gonna have to show some videos against human players that know what they're doing.

 

[Steel]

LOL

Top tier my-metaknight

I can see it as a mix up used every once in awhile, but seriously that will get extremely predictable and punished. And one mix up won't move you up a tier unless Fox starts producing in tournaments.

 

[M@v]

players make tiers, not characters. Except Metaknight that is. He breaks all the rules, including brawl itself >_>. On topic, I'll look into it sometime.

 

[-Mars-]

LOL

Top tier my-metaknight

I can see it as a mix up used every once in awhile, but seriously that will get extremely predictable and punished. And one mix up won't move you up a tier unless Fox starts producing in tournaments.

Lucien and Fenrir are pretty much the only ones using him in tournies and Lucien doesn't even main Fox. To me this really doesn't sound like something that can change a characters metagame.

 

[Judge Judy]

It sounds good, but it's not flawless. Fox falls fast but your opponent still has plenty of time to react, such as shielding. Also, there's enough 1 frame moves out there to make this only so unique. I see what you're getting at, but it's not perfect. I'll try it out and see what happens but I'm pretty certain this technique is at least evadable if not punishable. Again, sounds cool so I'll it.

PS: Since we're all in the mood for experimenting, try out the FLUDD on G&W, it ***** all his atks and makes it so G&W has no safe approach.

 

[M@v]

Lucien and Fenrir are pretty much the only ones using him in tournies and Lucien doesn't even main Fox. To me this really doesn't sound like something that can change a characters metagame.

Ive used fox in several local tourneys, but local tourneys mean crap. I havent had the funds or the transportation to go to bigger ones. Best placing so far for me is 4th with fox. The tourney im hosting in december has a pretty good turnout for how early it is. I plan to play in at least the brawl singles then, but the main priority for me will be running the tourney.

 

[usoppspell]

I understand your skepticism. I have tried it in all situations, with real human players. Like all things new, eventually people may adapt and counter, but it will make fighting fox a ****load harder, because any aerials are instantly made useless and punished, meaning all characters who approach mainly with shorthop aerials are ****ed, and slow large characters are completely SCREWED. Because of buffering you can't really go wrong with the timing, which is great since it's easy to perform seeing as you can buffer any move from an airdodge landing.

As I said it is not a new AT it has been around for a while it's just that no one has seen it's sheer potential. Fox now actually has a very viable method of approach that is not a dair combo and is nigh unpunishable. I'm working on getting a recording device as we speak, but because it is a simple technique if you get the gist of it you'll see what I mean instantly.

 

[-Mars-]

I used my Fox at a local play n trade and took second, but the competition was pretty lackluster. I'm talking about the type of people lucien plays like Meep and guys like that.............nationally known players.

 

[MK26]

TL;DR version:

SHAD -> u-tilt is unpunishable (note: except against a shield)
SHAD -> jab/running shield grab is Fox's best approach
Techchase whenever your opponent rolls

Did I get that right?

 

[Judge Judy]

I understand your skepticism. I have tried it in all situations, with real human players. Like all things new, eventually people may adapt and counter, but it will make fighting fox a ****load harder, because any aerials are instantly made useless and punished, meaning all characters who approach mainly with shorthop aerials are ****ed, and slow large characters are completely SCREWED. Because of buffering you can't really go wrong with the timing, which is great since it's easy to perform seeing as you can buffer any move from an airdodge landing.

As I said it is not a new AT it has been around for a while it's just that no one has seen it's sheer potential. Fox now actually has a very viable method of approach that is not a dair combo and is nigh unpunishable. I'm working on getting a recording device as we speak, but because it is a simple technique if you get the gist of it you'll see what I mean instantly.

Yah, but anyone with a halfway decent defense game can overcome this. I side with you though, I've been trying to tell people the FLUDD is the G&W slayer. Still, until I have really good proof or evidence that it works, I'm still going to be a skeptic. You have to understand, it just sounds too imperfect by your description. If it works though...IDK...I don't think it would make Fox top tier anymore than Mario's FLUDD **** on G&W would make him high tier.

 

[usoppspell]

It is evadable, but nigh impossible to punish, and adds incredible depth to fox play. It completely messes up the timing for regular approach counters, since people have to choose in a split second whether to wait out the SHAD or to expect a normal dair or nair or running shield grab. It opens up a whole lot of stuff, believe me. I strongly think this is the next step in Fox's game. I stress the importance of buffering the utilt though.

And I do know there are a lot of 1-frame attacks, but most of them don't hit the back of the character performing it, so landing behind them gives you a frame advantage almost all of the time. Annoyingly enough, the only one with jab speed attacks that cover his entire body is metaknight with his flurry, but if you buffer the utilt the attacks usually clash. What I mean is that it is a very safe option that opens up most characters to a world of pain, that is hard to avoid, and harder to punish. It's a great option all around and something that I have centered my playstyle around. So far I have done very well with actual people.

The reason I haven't hit any tourneys is because in Argentina the tourney scene is non-existant besides a very few skilled players that I play with occasionally.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Ok, what if you just block the uptilt?

 

[Judge Judy]

It is evadable, but nigh impossible to punish, and adds incredible depth to fox play. It completely messes up the timing for regular approach counters, since people have to choose in a split second whether to wait out the SHAD or to expect a normal dair or nair or running shield grab. It opens up a whole lot of stuff, believe me. I strongly think this is the next step in Fox's game. I stress the importance of buffering the utilt though.

And I do know there are a lot of 1-frame attacks, but most of them don't hit the back of the character performing it, so landing behind them gives you a frame advantage almost all of the time. Annoyingly enough, the only one with jab speed attacks that cover his entire body is metaknight with his flurry, but if you buffer the utilt the attacks usually clash. What I mean is that it is a very safe option that opens up most characters to a world of pain, that is hard to avoid, and harder to punish. It's a great option all around and something that I have centered my playstyle around. So far I have done very well with actual people.

The reason I haven't hit any tourneys is because in Argentina the tourney scene is non-existant besides a very few skilled players that I play with occasionally.

I know what you're saying, but get some vids up or at least your Wii FC so we can see some replays.

PS: What do you think of the FLUDD's **** on G&W?

Ok, what if you just block the uptilt?

That's what I was thinking, it may come out frame 1 but it still has some ending lag.

 

[usoppspell]

TL;DR version:

SHAD -> u-tilt is unpunishable (note: except against a shield)
SHAD -> jab/running shield grab is Fox's best approach
Techchase whenever your opponent rolls

Did I get that right?

Yeah, almost. Best approach is SHAD behind enemy to buffered utilt
SHAD jab running shield grab is to mix it up, though running shield grab is a great for surprises and can't be avoided.

Ok, what if you just block the uptilt?

Provided you did it right and landed behind the enemy he will block the uptilt but it is unlikely that he will punish because he is facing the other way and unless he powershielded he won't have the frame advantage to punish. So yeah, what I said... evadable but very hard to punish.

Besides keep in mind that with this your opponent will always be guessing what he should do against your approach. If he goes for a potential very high risk punishing of SHADUP (possible name for SHAD uptilt??) or try to stop a regular approach, or a running shield grab. You get to very hard to punish approaches (running shield grab, SHADUP) and a regular one to mix it up. Plus it is not only an approach but a defense. Because of buffering and invincibility frames, it is always better to SHADUP (with fox) than it is to spotdodge. If an opponent comes at you with an aerial, SHADUP on the spot will always punish. Have fun beating the turtle and previously rapist aerials like all of Luigi's.

I haven't tried out the Fludd cause I hate the fat plumber. I'd like to see a vid.

I'd also like to upload vids but it is a pretty simple concept. I know it sounds weak without video support but start using it and you'll see just how much of a difference it will make in your game. I have to go but if anyone tries it put it down in this thread. I am very optimistic about it. It really does work.

 

[Turbo Ether]

People can drop shield and turn around instantly in this game. Characters can also ftilt you or sh an aerial that hits behind them.

 

[Judge Judy]

Provided you did it right and landed behind the enemy he will block the uptilt but it is unlikely that he will punish because he is facing the other way and unless he powershielded he won't have the frame advantage to punish. So yeah, what I said... evadable but very hard to punish.

Your opponent could still just space so you couldn't move behind them. You have to assume that your opponent is as skillful, as fast, and as clever as you are.

People can drop shield and turn around instantly in this game. Characters can also ftilt you or sh an aerial that hits behind them.

Yah, pretty much. Again, I need vids. No vid, no replays, no service.

 

[Steel]

I predicted your SHAD and took a step forward.

What are you going to do now?

 

[MoblinMan]

I predicted your SHAD and took a step forward.

What are you going to do now?

The situation returns to neutral without any possibility of the opponent being able to punish.

Also, next time you try to predict it I'll do a running shield grab, or even an up smash... See where he's going?

Truthfully though, I'm a little skeptical. Keep debating, I'll BBL *Implements into gameplay*

 

[usoppspell]

I predicted your SHAD and took a step forward.

What are you going to do now?

Nothing, obviously, but neither will you. And the next time you predict wrong and the fox decides to approach you with a nair or dair, he'll **** you up.

People can drop shield and turn around instantly in this game. Characters can also ftilt you or sh an aerial that hits behind them.

Very true and astute observation, but it is covered. SHADing avoids ftilts, even ungodly ones like Snake's and KDDD. Trust me. This ***** DDD and Snake completely and their reliance on Ftilt for spacing. And if at any point ANY character perfoms a short hop and tries even a back air, the most they can achieve is to clash with the utilt, but 95% of the time they get hit with the utilt. And I tried this with GW's turtle, so i know that it is very safe. SHADUP ***** any shorthop aerials.

I'm gone I'll continue this discussion tomorrow. I understand it is all very theoretical. I know I lack vids but try it out I think it is pretty clear. First learn to do it and use it and tell me if someone comes up with a counter that ***** it. But so far, all I have seen suggests it is tremendously safe and powerful. That's it for today. And you've been awfully receptive and cool about this. I thought I would eat a lot more flame for this.

It is vital that you try it out to see just how useful it is. See ya, off to a wedding to get wasted!!

 

[KheldarVII]

I suppose if you have the time and you messed up (by them blocking, etc) you could just spam D-air afterwards. Good players WILL know the turnaround attacks and tilting is probably one of the easier options with it. MK has one wicked fast F-tilt too.

Basically, if you kept doing it and they blocked 2-3 hits they're far enough to retreat or whack you good and YOU'RE on the defensive. Now if you want to grab... they have to stay shielding or use a laggy move and most D-smashes will eat up that approach at that small distance, especially DK or MK.

You have a good idea but it's probably just another mix-up that throws people off. If you introduce enough mix-ups to a person then they're left with split second decisions that you can use to your advantage. However Fox won't have a lot so you will find yourself getting predicted probably 1/3 of the time.

So let's see what you can do... assuming they are a good distance away

Dash -> Shield(stop)
Dash -> Shield -> grab
Dash -> U-smash
Dash -> D-air/N-air
Dash attack
And now Dash -> Air dodge -> U-tilt

That's six things I can think of right now and a simple shielding can take care of 3. There's probably a lot more options but I don't know... as good as this revolutionary air dodge approach sounds, it's probably just one more option in Fox's arsenal that probably won't work more than twice.

 

[Conviction]

How about RARing the SHADing tech for a buffered Usmash?

 

[RPK]

What about Fox Trot to anything? IMO Fox Trot>>>Dash

Fox Trotting allows you to perform a True Pivot. And out of that you can perform any move you would like. Even Fox Trot>True Pivot>Taunt. In addition, if you dont perform the turn around you can still perform a dash attack out of it. Also, if you go into the running animation for those few moments, you can RAR your Bair. Fox Trotting gives Fox almost everything the dash does, but more. You can even change directions almost instantly by dash dancing and then performing another Fox Trot. Only thing Fox cant do directly out of a Fox Trot is shield...But you only a few more frames afterwards to enter the running animation, and during that time, you may activate your shield, or turn around for a RAR.

In short, Fox Trotting is the s***. If your looking for new approaches, use Fox Trots...Shadding is nice...Especially since you can Fox Trot to Shad =v=

 

[Steel]

Nothing, obviously, but neither will you. And the next time you predict wrong and the fox decides to approach you with a nair or dair, he'll **** you up.

No, the missed up tilt can be punished by a character with quick attacks.

And you just admitted that this is a mix up, how the hell does this move him to top tier? Change the title

 

[A6M Zero]

I wrote a HUGE *** thread starter explaining everything in extreme detail. My computer crashed. I will not write a 1000 word essay again. Here it is in a nutshell. Enjoy.

I will NOT explain why this rules all. It makes instant top-tier. This is not a joke thread. I won't explain everything from the get-go, but I will answer any and all questions you may have....

And he goes on to describe something that all Fox players should already be doing as a mindgame. What this troll fails to realize is that while there's only a one frame of hittability between the airddge and utilt, utilt doesn't have priority over every single move in the game + no lag afterwards + instantly break sheilds + come out faster than every characters grab + win a match + cancel every more-than-one-frame-of-hitbox-move ect. ect. ect.

Honestly, if you're winning massive amounts of matches versus people with this, they're absolutely total newbs and most importantly, they're DOING IT WRONG!!!11!1!one!
!1eleven!!1!1!!1!

PS: What kind of noob doesn't save after 1000 words?

PPS: Fenrir pwns most of you

 

[Charoo]

don't want to ruin the moment but landing lag have 2 frame. 4 frame if you fast fall. So up tilt out of air dodging is actually 3 frame start up. That's how people can charge up smash smashers than air dodge towards them before they can shield or counter attack.

 

[JJBro1]

video or it never happened lol. But could you make a video of this play style?

 

[TKD]

You're exaggerating. I did this the month Brawl came out, and got destroyed by a R.O.B. player at my first tournament's grand finals. His spotdodge to downsmash is better than Fox's airdodge to uptilt.

Besides, Wolf does this much better. Try HIM out. You can switch it up between SHAD back facing to the enemy and jab and simply bairing. It's nothing against MK's tornado. That breaks the game, not Fox's airdodge.

 

[soul ark]

me and rookie represent torneys up in the ny area we do pretty well however i dont use this fox has little representation here in these parts.im planning on using the tech when i go to this smashfest today

 

[da K.I.D.]

blocking it is point less, because you are just back to stage one, both players at nuetral, unless you are ROB with his rediculous down smash or MK, but MKs down smash might just be fast enough to hit you, but because your behind him, if you just hold shield after the uptilt, its possible that timings might coincide that you automatically powershield the second hit of the down smash, which open you up to do anythign you want back to MK, my choice being a turnaround up smash

the only one i cant see this being effective against is snake. because of foxes fast fall speed,(the same thing that makes this tech so great) he cant cover much ground in a short hop, therefore in order to get close enough that the SHAD will get behind the opponent, you are putting yourself in f-tilt range.

other than that, it sounds really good

 

[usoppspell]

don't want to ruin the moment but landing lag have 2 frame. 4 frame if you fast fall. So up tilt out of air dodging is actually 3 frame start up. That's how people can charge up smash smashers than air dodge towards them before they can shield or counter attack.

This is true but not to this tech or buffering out of a SHAD in general. Read on its further down the post.

blocking it is point less, because you are just back to stage one, both players at nuetral, unless you are ROB with his rediculous down smash or MK, but MKs down smash might just be fast enough to hit you, but because your behind him, if you just hold shield after the uptilt, its possible that timings might coincide that you automatically powershield the second hit of the down smash, which open you up to do anythign you want back to MK, my choice being a turnaround up smash

the only one i cant see this being effective against is snake. because of foxes fast fall speed,(the same thing that makes this tech so great) he cant cover much ground in a short hop, therefore in order to get close enough that the SHAD will get behind the opponent, you are putting yourself in f-tilt range.

other than that, it sounds really good

R.O.B. may be able to counter with a downsmash, depending on how many frames it takes to bring the shield down if he doesn't powershield. We all know that powershielding is a counter to any single hit non-grab attack so that isn't much of an argument against people dissing this tactic. Metaknight cannot however punish with a downsmash.

You're exaggerating. I did this the month Brawl came out, and got destroyed by a R.O.B. player at my first tournament's grand finals. His spotdodge to downsmash is better than Fox's airdodge to uptilt.

Besides, Wolf does this much better. Try HIM out. You can switch it up between SHAD back facing to the enemy and jab and simply bairing. It's nothing against MK's tornado. That breaks the game, not Fox's airdodge.

Fox's SHADuptilt (provided you buffer and land behind your opponent) is just as fast as R.O.B.s spotdodge to downsmash. I elaborate on this further down the post.

Frankly not much of a Wolf player. I have however tried the effectivenes of SHADing with Wolf and even though his attacks are much more powerful he is not nearly as consistent or deadly because his attacks are that much slower. Also SHADing with Wolf does not have invincibility frames throughout the entire shorthop if you airdodge too early because of his slower fall speed. I have since played MetaKnight players and the Nado is a soft counter this technique if they are at ground level because it has a constant hitbox in the place you land. However it is possible to hit them out of the Nado if he is above you.

I never said that it was game breaking, I just said it is a technique that makes a previosly mediocre approachgame Top-tier worthy.

And he goes on to describe something that all Fox players should already be doing as a mindgame. What this troll fails to realize is that while there's only a one frame of hittability between the airddge and utilt, utilt doesn't have priority over every single move in the game + no lag afterwards + instantly break sheilds + come out faster than every characters grab + win a match + cancel every more-than-one-frame-of-hitbox-move ect. ect. ect.

Honestly, if you're winning massive amounts of matches versus people with this, they're absolutely total newbs and most importantly, they're DOING IT WRONG!!!11!1!one!
!1eleven!!1!1!!1!

PS: What kind of noob doesn't save after 1000 words?

PPS: I totally 8-4'd Fenrir on Wifi xD

Thankyou A6M Zero for crapping all over a serious discussion with insults.

If there was an attack that breaks shields, has no startup or ending lag and automatically win a match this would be a broken game and no one would play it. I am slightly hurt by your Noob remark, but I'll take it considering my massive stupidity in not saving the post, I guess I got carried away.

You talk priority but if you are so elite you should know that ANY hitboxes be it smash or jab that touch each other without either attack reaching an opponents hurtbox will canchel each other out. Fox's uptilt's hitbox acts as a hitbox shield and avoids taking damage from any incoming attacks while the hitbox is out. And I have canceled some R.O.B. downsmashes and have ***** even them with this tech. (pretty sure they weren't world class though) I'll try and get a video up showing how it works against all those annoying counters from your not so favourite top tier guys.

SHADing allows for no landing frames and going directly into the attack animation if you buffer, and because Fox's foot goes up backwards, it hits on the first frame of the attack. I haven't played any good ROB's, but I am going to Training at 1/4 speeds and try out all your counters with a friend. I do know about spotdodge to downsmash though, but it is just as fast out of the dodge as the SHAD to uptilt from fox, and by that I mean it hits on the first frame after leaving invincibility frames.

Again, buffering is a must. It's not hard at all, but this technique just does not work if you don't buffer, because you add the landing frames to your attacks that screw up the time you have to counter. Also, SHAD to jab won't lead any big combos, but you may be protected from most attacks out of a shield by the jab combo's hitboxes.

Also keep in mind that the sheer amount of timing differences between normal approaches and SHAD approaches and alternating between the two gives players on the defensive a lot of room for error and because fox is so fast it's more a guessing game and on the limit of human reflex capabilities. Anything that keeps the opponent guessing with such a large risk drastically slows reaction time and effectiveness to counter. SHAD to buffered jab, SHAD to buffered dash to running shield grab, SHAD behind the enemy tu uptilt are all extremely safe approach options that allow you to safely leave your invincibility frames and hit extremely quickly with very low risk and will **** up your opponents defensive game. SHAD to buffered roll to running shield grab is an additional option to screw up counters and timing. Seriously, all options out of a SHAD are just better than regular approaching, and adding it to Fox's game is something that can't go wrong with even if you do prefer your old method of approaching.

Also, once you see the potential of SHAD to buffered uptilt on the defensive as the ultimate punisher for 95% of the game's attacks you'll see what I mean with revolutionary.

VERY important to get vids though, so I'll procure some kind of evidence over the course of next week. I'm just trying to get you guys to understand just how many options and depth this adds to Fox's game and offensive potential.

 

[flame013191]

Interesting. I'll have to look into this further

 

[SCOTU]

... so basically, you're telling people that there's a "new" technique of short hopping and air dodging, and doing that into a utilt makes him amazing? Think about that again. While it's true that that's a useful thing to do sometimes, it doesn't make fox amazing in any way. It doesn't even really make his approach much better than it is without it. Everyone is adept at punishing air dodge landings, as it's crucial to playing brawl. This really isn't a whole lot better than rolling behind your opponent and utilting, although the air dodge is actually usable as an approach, but same concept.

 

[hotgarbage]

Alright, this thread needs some serious frame data:


Landing lag from sh: 2 frames

Landing lag from shff: 4 frames (as Charoo already pointed out)

*Air dodging doesn't effect landing lag in any way or form.

Utilt: hits on frame 3

So in all you're going to have 6 frames of vulnerability from this, not 1 frame .

Also:

This is because fox retains invincibility frames all throughout the airdodge

Here is the info on his airdodge:
Lasts for 49 frames
Is invincible during frames 4-27

Fox's shff lasts 25 frames though, so after the 3 frame startup he'll be invincible the rest of the shff

Also, there's enough 1 frame moves out there to make this only so unique.

And I do know there are a lot of 1-frame attacks

Actually 1-frame attacks don't exist in brawl to my knowledge. Attacks like peach's and pikachu's jab (for example) hit on frame 2 though.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

HotGarbage wins again

 

[usoppspell]

Alright, this thread needs some serious frame data:


Landing lag from sh: 2 frames

Landing lag from shff: 4 frames (as Charoo already pointed out)

*Air dodging doesn't effect landing lag in any way or form.

Utilt: hits on frame 3

So in all you're going to have 6 frames of vulnerability from this, not 1 frame .

All the numbers you have are true, but not in all circumstances. Utilt hits on frame 3 from the front, 1 from the back. (thus I've gathered so far, maybe i'm wrong??). Perhaps, at most, I've gone wrong with the landing animation but I've buffered the attack while landing in 1/4 speed and have seen no landing animation, nor the small "air displacement" animation of landing, just moving directly into the attack animation. Buffering out of SHAD allows for the circumvention of landing frames, which are vulnerable as you very correctly state. Buffering means entering an input 1/5th of a second (12 frames) before the current action finishes, allowing the next action to have no frame lag in between the two actions, sometimes even eliminating certain frames of the former attack's ending animation. A good example is Marth's downtilt, as many of you may know, which you can buffer multiple times to perform it quickly but the ending lag of the last one will require more waiting than performing another downtilt.

If I have my information wrong it's by one or two frames at most, mostly involving the elimination of the landing animation, not 5. If any one of you tests this and finds something different please let me know so I can change it, but so far nothing you said surprises me. That's why I said it is so important to buffer moves out of SHAD, which allows you to attack on landing with no lag. This requires you to be in Airdodge animation when you land though, so maybe the error lies in timing the airdodge so it ends before you land, which would result in the landing frames.

Remember, for this to work, you must still be in Airdodge frames when you land, buffer a jab or uptilt(if the opponent is behind you for the uptilt) and get the attack out in a single frame.

 

[usoppspell]

Great info, Hotgarbage, I did not know some of that frame data. What I tested out empirically though does suggest that the technique hits with 1, maybe 2 frames. I have read in these forums that Fox's Jab hits on frame 1. Is that right? Because a turnaround utilt hit just as fast as the Jab, I surmised that it was done on frame 1. The jab is definately faster that the frontal uptilt, and that hits on frame 3, so the jab must be at least a frame 2 attack like pikachu's.

Also, i do not shff with this tech. Perhaps fastfalling doesn't allow for buffering? I just regular Shorthop, hit airdodge at the apex of the shorthop, and recieve invincibility frames for the rest of the hop. Your frame data mostly supports what I have said, in that you retain invincibility frames through the larger part of the shorthop.

Also, the technique works all the same even if the frame data is off by 1 or even 2 frames because I've tested it out extensively, but it is nice to know the theory behind it a little more. Perhaps it is important to not hit airdodge as soon as you jump so you actually retain the invincibility up to the point of landing.

Hotgarbage, since you are a GameandWatch player, I also want to add that SHADing with GameandWatch I have found to be just as effective because of the small shorthop, but I didn't find him as effective with this technique mainly because there aren't that many attacks upon landing that are as powerful or as comboable as utilt. But SHAD to buffered jab works just the same as Fox's jab so the theory is just the same.

Okay thats it for today.

 

[icedragon-]

It sounds promising if you manage to make it work every time.

 

[Zhamy]

Utilt hits on frame 3 from the front, 1 from the back.

No. Still Frame 3.

What I tested out empirically though does suggest that the technique hits with 1, maybe 2 frames.

Jab hits on Frame 2.

Also, the technique works all the same even if the frame data is off by 1 or even 2 frames

6 frames is a buttload of ****.