Fox for Top-tier! New technique and play style!!

[J4pu]

You will have landing lag as well as the 1 frame startup lag
landing lag is either 2 frame for soft landing or 4 frames for hard landing (I heard AD into the ground caused hard landing)
This can be easily beat by somebody outranging or outprioritizing your Utilt

You also have the ending lag to the Utilt if you miss and you have the startup lag to your jump (idk what Fox's is but I think Sheik's is 4 and Fox has similar speed to Shiek so I'd say around there).

You forgot 5 variables or so , congrats, your 1 frame punishable window turned into about 8 throughout the move, as well as the ability to be punished during the attack.

I'm not saying this is rendered useless but it is not a God-like tech to boost Fox up the tier list. That being said I am still interested in seeing this in a match.

EDIT- if you wait until the apex of your SH to AD then you are banking on them playing an all out defensive game, because to the best of my knowledge they have the ability to move and attack while moving. Not to mention if you are planning on landing behind them the apex of your SH is going to be very close to them, a fast Usmash, an Utilt (oh man Snake's dream come true) or a tall character's jab would stop you mid-air

Rolling behind you when you attempt this the 2nd time in a match is going to **** you hard.
But wait you say if you see them rolling you won't use the Utilt? too bad you already buffered it in, it's gunna come out. (you might still have a window of opportunity but nobody has perfect reflexes, chances are if you try this and you roll you take a strong hit

 

[TKD]

Wolf's shorthopped airdodging is much better than Fox's, please don't get me into this...

It works I guess, but Fox's SHAD covers a very small distance because of his very slow horizontal aerial movement. It's not abusable and it helps approaching, but just a bit, not that much.

About people saying you should shield the uptilt, that's pretty much wrong, because if you see your opponent missing an attack, you uptilt (like SHAD'ing through MK's fair). If they're shielding, you either turn around and grab of get away.

Still, top tier approach? You should play as MK sometime...Fox can beat MK, yeah, but we're talking approach here. And no move deals consistant 10% damage, unless you're talking about Ike's fsmash when it's completely deteriorated. Remember moves don't decay in Training mode, if that's where you "tested" this.

 

[usoppspell]

You will have landing lag as well as the 1 frame startup lag
landing lag is either 2 frame for soft landing or 4 frames for hard landing (I heard AD into the ground caused hard landing)
This can be easily beat by somebody outranging or outprioritizing your Utilt

You also have the ending lag to the Utilt if you miss and you have the startup lag to your jump (idk what Fox's is but I think Sheik's is 4 and Fox has similar speed to Shiek so I'd say around there).

You forgot 5 variables or so , congrats, your 1 frame punishable window turned into about 8 throughout the move, as well as the ability to be punished during the attack.

I'm not saying this is rendered useless but it is not a God-like tech to boost Fox up the tier list. That being said I am still interested in seeing this in a match.

EDIT- if you wait until the apex of your SH to AD then you are banking on them playing an all out defensive game, because to the best of my knowledge they have the ability to move and attack while moving. Not to mention if you are planning on landing behind them the apex of your SH is going to be very close to them, a fast Usmash, an Utilt (oh man Snake's dream come true) or a tall character's jab would stop you mid-air

Rolling behind you when you attempt this the 2nd time in a match is going to **** you hard.
But wait you say if you see them rolling you won't use the Utilt? too bad you already buffered it in, it's gunna come out. (you might still have a window of opportunity but nobody has perfect reflexes, chances are if you try this and you roll you take a strong hit

Look, you sound awful sure of yourself, and I don't mean this in a bad way at all, but some of this stuff you mention doesn't make sense when you test it. How is it possible to airdodge all the way through MK's jab flurry, land and manage to hit him with this if you have 8 frames of vulnerability throughout the move. And I don't think startup lag on the jump is something you should factor into the "vulnerable" frames of the move, since youre supposed to initiate the shorthop out of range. Also, it is hardly a move for God-tier, but Fox has the best options out of a SHAD at close range in my opinion. Some people in this forum are adamant about the frame 3 bringing out the hitbox in the utilt, but I could swear that it hits faster if you are very close to your opponent with your back turned to him. Still, I'll have to test some more I guess.

One thing I am 99% sure of is that you don't hardland with Fox upon landing within the airdodge animation. I do not fastfall when I perform this and the hardlanding animation is WAY too slow in comparison for me to have missed hardlanding, especially at 1/4th speed.

All of the frame data here seems to be spewed out as if it came straight out of an official textbook that had the universal truth about it. Frame data is obtained by testing, and sometimes even then probably tested with the moves by themselves, and not out of all the other moves in the character. Is it truly that hard to imagine that certain moves chain better together? My experience seems to suggest that this move is a lot better than the theory you guys have suggests, because it works too consistently against moves that do not give you a 5 frame window. Maybe what I'm doing is working with the spacing of the utilt? Again all these things will be answered when I get the video up, but the effectiveness of the move itself will become apparent if you test it out yourself.

Say that the move actually has 5 frames of vulnerability upon landing (2landing, 3startup utilt), should it matter if you can still **** with it? There was some frame data I wasn't aware of, like the Jab coming out on frame 2, and the airdodge invincibility frames, but none of them were really affecting how well it works in the actual match, the last one actually supporting my statement on fox retaining invincibility frames all throughout the SHAD.

This discussion seems to have reached a stalemate on the theory level, and no one is going to take me for my word (understandably so) until I present some video evidence. It will come up this week, but meanwhile i'll keep testing to find out if all your counter evidence is true.

Most importantly the video will show the situations where this ***** the hardest, and how it counters so many approaches, as well as improves on your own.

 

[chaos_]

my marth top tier lol

 

[_X_]

/thread please.

X has had enough.

 

[hotgarbage]

I've buffered the attack while landing in 1/4 speed and have seen no landing animation...

Ahhhhh, there's your problem. The game actually changes when you put it on 1/4 speed, in that the game adds frames to make it look smooth. So you can't really analyze frames in that mode because it's being processed differently than it would normally. Not to mention that doing all this by sight is pretty iffy <___>.

The only real way to get frame data is to capture it onto a computer, use proper deinterlacers to get 60 frames per a second, and then go through the video frame by frame.

Buffering out of SHAD allows for the circumvention of landing frames.

Actually it doesn't :/. Unfortunate, as removing landing lag would be pretty neat.

A good example is Marth's downtilt, as many of you may know, which you can buffer mulle times to perform it quickly but the ending lag of the last one will require more waiting than performing another downtilt.

Aye, but I feel like I should clarify: Marth's dtilt has IASA frames, but all that is is the move's "true ending". Most moves in Brawl have a "true ending" and an "aesthetic ending". The true ending is what it sounds like; it's when the move is truly over even though the animation may not be. The aesthetic ending is when the move is over, but the animation continues if not interrupted. They did this for cosmetic purposes.

Also, i do not shff with this tech. Perhaps fastfalling doesn't allow for buffering? I just regular Shorthop, hit airdodge at the apex of the shorthop, and recieve invincibility frames for the rest of the hop. Your frame data mostly supports what I have said, in that you retain invincibility frames through the larger part of the shorthop.

Hm, ok. For reference fox's sh lasts 28 frames, which fits nicely with his airdodge invincibility time. And his shff is actually 24 frames, I screwed up with that . But anyways, doing it this way will give you 2 frames of landing lag. So that's 4 frames once you land for the utilt to come out.

Hotgarbage, since you are a GameandWatch player.....

Actually I main peach :O.

No. Still Frame 3
Jab hits on Frame 2.

Good to see someone got the same results I did 8]

EDIT:

Say that the move actually has 5 frames of vulnerability upon landing (2landing, 3startup utilt)

The utilt actually hits on frame 3, so it only has 2 frames of startup.

And btw, I'm not saying anything about the legitimacy of this, I'm just dishing out farm data . Personally I think it sounds like a good mixup. I fight against a lucas that likes to shad and it's pretty effective, so I don't see why this wouldn't be.

 

[SCOTU]

landing lag on sh is actually only one frame when you IASA, and the utilt hits on frame 3 behind fox and even later in front of him. Since you're listing off fractions of seconds, and noticing things in 1/4 speed in training mode, I'm going to go ahead and guess my method of frame data capture is more accurate.

 

[punked_25]

Can we see some videos please? I need proof or else to me it's never happened.

 

[Gea]

lol? There's a simple move everyone can do that destroys this utterly. Pivotgrabbing. It will outrange your utilt or trade hits at the least but its a free grab for the other person. Snake gets destroyed by this? Snake would love to grab you and has more than enough range to in his grabs.

Care to say how pivtograbbing doesn't utterly counter this?

 

[the end 101]

Can we see some videos please? I need proof or else to me it's never happened.

Yeah, a vid. would be nice.

 

[Fenrir VII]

PPS: I totally 8-4'd Fenrir on Wifi xD

um...congrats? Not sure why you felt the need to say that... but cool...wifi wifi

As for the technique.. People should stop flaming him for it.

We ALL know here that one tech will not make Fox unbeatable or anything of the like...but for anybody who hadn't already though about it, it's a good thing to mention.

Like...SHAD, as it's being called, is a viable tactic...and should be added to a mixup game. especially in the tech of landing behind a shield... Sure, that's viable. Will it win if you only do that? uh...no... Anything you do, no matter how good, is punishable if predicted...and if you only do that, then your opponent will catch on and punish it.

Basically, it's worth mentioning... While it certainly won't make Fox top tier, it is viable as an addition to the metagame.

 

[Reezy989]

Im good with Fox but new to the forums.. I wont even lie all this termanology has me lost as hell. What is the basic strategy here?? just up tilt? someone please explain... and what is buffering?

 

[da K.I.D.]

i tried this on some ppl...
and while i am by no means a great fox, i used this move exactly the way it was explained for about a third of my approaches and the only time i was ever punished for it was when i made a personal mistake as a player.

this is really good, and this move is the epitome of fox in this game.
really really, solid. and very good, but far from broken.
and this may make him better than some characters that were previously thought to have been better than him, which is what the OP was trying to do.

Congratz dude, this is beast and as a not so great fox player, this effective made me about 50% better when it comes to playing him

 

[_X_]

i tried this on some ppl...
and while i am by no means a great fox, i used this move exactly the way it was explained for about a third of my approaches and the only time i was ever punished for it was when i made a personal mistake as a player.

this is really good, and this move is the epitome of fox in this game.
really really, solid. and very good, but far from broken.
and this may make him better than some characters that were previously thought to have been better than him, which is what the OP was trying to do.

Congratz dude, this is beast and as a not so great fox player, this effective made me about 50% better when it comes to playing him

Are you serious?

You best not be trolling with 1.1K post

 

[tha_carter]

Honestly speaking, this; along with perfected lagless ariels make Fox a serious challenge.

I usually 3 stock the average fox, but since those two things have been near perfected, its become a much closer match.

Ive been seeing those things from pro foxes for a while now, but im glad youre helping make it public knowledge.

 

[Saki Zatoichi]

I would definitely go back to Fox (64, Melee) if he was High tier or above.

 

[usoppspell]

i tried this on some ppl...
and while i am by no means a great fox, i used this move exactly the way it was explained for about a third of my approaches and the only time i was ever punished for it was when i made a personal mistake as a player.

this is really good, and this move is the epitome of fox in this game.
really really, solid. and very good, but far from broken.
and this may make him better than some characters that were previously thought to have been better than him, which is what the OP was trying to do.

Congratz dude, this is beast and as a not so great fox player, this effective made me about 50% better when it comes to playing him

Honestly speaking, this; along with perfected lagless ariels make Fox a serious challenge.

I usually 3 stock the average fox, but since those two things have been near perfected, its become a much closer match.

Ive been seeing those things from pro foxes for a while now, but im glad youre helping make it public knowledge.

Thankyou everyone who has actually tried this and given it some serious thought. All of you should realize that if you do it properly, it gives a huge boost to Fox's metagame. I was pretty sure that pro foxes had to be doing it in Japan, because the great placing with Fox over there in the tourney scene seems to completely trash SBR's Fox tier placing. Okay, so there have been some mixups as to actual frame data that have been clarified by some very informed people.

landing lag on sh is actually only one frame when you IASA, and the utilt hits on frame 3 behind fox and even later in front of him. Since you're listing off fractions of seconds, and noticing things in 1/4 speed in training mode, I'm going to go ahead and guess my method of frame data capture is more accurate.

Yes scotu, it is. This led to initial misconceptions about landing frames, my mistake.
There have been some misunderstandings.
Jab hits on frame 2, Utilt hits on frame 3, everytime(this is where I got it wrong, as I thought that the attack hit on frame 1 from behind). That for one. I have seen the landing animation play out without buffering, and it definately has IASA frames, because buffering definately makes attacks come out faster, if only by a very small fraction.

So I have further tested this with pikachu's jab first, and you cannot land into it and hit pikachu, you get hit when you land. This is irrefutable proof that my initial statement of 1frame vulnerability is wrong, as this would mean that on average 50% of the time you should be able to land into a jabbing pikachu's hitbox and clash with his jab. But you get hit everytime. This clearly excludes a 1 frame opening.

However, you can land into MK's jab combo and hit him everytime if buffered correctly, so if somebody has the frame data on it then perhaps we could know for certain that it's not bigger than the X amount of frames it takes to hit with his combo.

As it stands so far it seems that there is a 3-frame (1 sh landing, 2 utilt startup) opening instead of a 1-frame opening, which makes sense with the things I tested out since the only thing I have tested faster than this is pikachu's jab, and that is the fastest attack in the game.

Considering that only game and watch's and pikachu's jab are faster, I'd say that it's pretty ****ing fast, certainly fast enough to justify it's effectiveness as I've witnessed so far.

Are you serious?

You best not be trolling with 1.1K post

_X_: 2 out of 2 posts you have called someone a troll and provided no useful information. This makes you the only troll in the thread.

 

[DelxDoom]

It's good as a replacement to sh dair as an approach, in fact, it's probably better than sh dair as an approach, but it's not unpunishable (can be shielded, can be grabbed)

It's another very good option for landing an utilt though (in addition to dair and dash attack now)

 

[da K.I.D.]

Are you serious?

You best not be trolling with 1.1K post

if you want to play that game, we can do that too...

dont you dare talk down to me, for based solely on post count (the only stat that you care about, it seems,) you are an inferior being to me, and as such you should not be allowed to be in my presence

on topic, its good, dont knock it till youve tried it.
and neutral air is a halfway decent approach as well

 

[usoppspell]

It certainly is pretty a decent approach(nair). Did it cancel the MKNado or not?

By the way, Kheldar made a vid showing the technique at one point. Check it out!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHBmldvS-g8

 

[soul ark]

It certainly is pretty a decent approach(nair). Did it cancel the MKNado or not?

By the way, Kheldar made a vid showing the technique at one point. Check it out!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHBmldvS-g8

nice vid helped me out a little

i dont see why every one is knocking the tech it actually very good

 

[§witch]

Eh, nothing ground breaking, yet a useful mix up.

 

[Veggi]

This is actually pretty useful. It's fun to use too, I guess this is one of the perks to using a character based off an Arwing.

 

[_X_]

Although Iw as very cynical about this thread this IS a good approach, from what I've tested. We'll see if it's good enough to stick.

_X_: 2 out of 2 posts you have called someone a troll and provided no useful information. This makes you the only troll in the thread.

Acutally, a troll is someone who is baiting someone for a reaction, I wasn't doing such. Sorry if I came across as negative but with such a provocative thread name what did you expect (especially with out a video)?

if you want to play that game, we can do that too...

dont you dare talk down to me, for based solely on post count (the only stat that you care about, it seems,) you are an inferior being to me, and as such you should not be allowed to be in my presence

on topic, its good, dont knock it till youve tried it.
and neutral air is a halfway decent approach as well

Ahhh... I'm pretty sure you took that completely the wrong way.

I meant that with your 1.1K you would have credibility (weather credibility should be dictated by post counts is another topic entirely) and as such if you were jesting about the usefulness of the technique it would be unethical as, with so many posts, it appears that you are a active member of the community.

Sorry for the misunderstand... Go easy on the raging buddy.

 

[_X_]

Sorry for x2 post, accidental.

 

[RPK]

SHADing huh...I ended up trying this with Fox and got pwnt...Maybe I was doing it all wrong cause I was doing this so much as an approach when I played Jigglypuff around when the game was still quite new.

EDIT: The video is quite nice too. Though, I probably would have covered just a bit more stuff...

 

[usoppspell]

LOL

I definately had it coming _X_. Anyone that starts a thread with that title is asking for it. I was just that confident that it would stick. Now that a videos in we can actually talk about it. And you actually come across as a nice guy now that you're not bashing me.

For those that missed it, this is Kheldar's vid showing the technique and its proper timing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHBmldvS-g8

Thankyou Kheldar it was long overdue.

Once we milk the technique for all it's worth, get all the possible follow ups and mindgames that may come out of it, and a few combo videos why not, I think it definately deserves a sticky. But certainly not this thread, as it is chock-full of flaming and garbage. Perhaps eventually me or anyone who wants to really can make a thread with several vid links, explanation and bottom line for this technique, or just add it to the current Fox tech threads, though I fear it will not get much exposure there.

 

[RPK]

I still think Fox Trotting and True Pivots are important to Fox's play style...-pouts- Also I got a new avatar of Firefox tan x3

 

[Emblem Lord]

Try this against Marth or MK and you will get punished everytime with a reverse up b.

Combined with the land lag and the frames it would take to do another action after Fox lands it's mathmatically impossible for Fox to hit them or even avoid getting hit by the up b.

 

[usoppspell]

Punished every time? hardly. Unless you claim to predict Fox's moves, one of the games fastest characters, every time. With what is now becoming an approach with several options, to say that you'll get punished everytime for an attack that has such a small frame window is ridiculous, especially considering that you don't really know what a fox will do until the last fraction of a second.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you SH airdodge through them they have enough time to react and up b straight from thier shields. It hits on frame 5. Fox will suffer from land lag and any initial start up time for the action he chooses upon landing. When done correctly Marth and MK could punish this the majority of the time it's used.

 

[KheldarVII]

If you SH airdodge through them they have enough time to react and up b straight from thier shields. It hits on frame 5. Fox will suffer from land lag and any initial start up time for the action he chooses upon landing. When done correctly Marth and MK could punish this the majority of the time it's used.

You haven't tried this before have you?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dude...it's math. I'm just talking frame data here.

 

[KheldarVII]

Well I'm just saying there are no landing frames with it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Of course there are. Land lag is usually going to be around 2 to 3 frames no matter what. Hard land lag is 4 frames. You get that when you fast fall IIRC.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Ok ok people


You do have slight lag when you land... as people have said several times in this thread, it's around 2-3 frames. Therefore, for at least a few frames, you are vulnerable... Therefore, with perfect timing, an attack can hit you.

Add to that the fact that it's fairly easy to see an air dodge and prepare to punish it. so it is conceivable that an upB out of shield could hit it.

That said, that timing is ridiculous for Marth or MK. Yes, they can theoretically pull it off every time, but to see anybody being 100% with it as long as this is not Fox's only approach attempt is a stretch for me.

I mean, if it's predicted...you could hit it with pretty much anything....pivot grab certainly comes to mind, for one. The Fox can start baiting the punishers out, yes.. but then it's just a mixup mindgame...who will guess the other out and whatnot.

I have never thought this was any kind of "end-all" tactic...even though I've used it some for quite a long time. I do believe it is useful, sure... I think that, used as a mixup, this is a usually good idea. I don't, however, think it should be a Fox player's main approach.

To argue that it is unpunishable is ridiculous. it's just a decent approach option when it's not guessed out. so yeah.

 

[SCOTU]

Emblem Lord is right on this, although i could also see MKs doing dsmashes instead.
Keep in mind, the window for a marth up-b hitting, isn't 2 frames as some ppl are saying. First off, we're talking about a short hop air dodge into a utilt. That's a 4 frame window of vulnerability. However, Marth's up b out of shield hits on frame 6 iirc, and he's invincible until it hits. This means that if he starts it anywhere from 5 frames before you land all the way until the frame the utilt hits, (4 frames after you land), the marth up b will hit you. That's a 10 frame window, something very easy to nail close to 100%, esp. if you have a full air dodge time to see it coming.

 

[usoppspell]

I play against a very good Marth mainer, and yes I've been hit once or twice by this "counter" but it really is so easy to bait that he stopped using it overall because it was so risky if he didn't land it. 80% of the times he made it, he either got a solid 15-20% dmg(usually grabbed and then shot from the distance) or was killed by an usmash. I like to keep close enough to bait moves and punish, and only going in ocassionally with a SHAD to grab, running shield grab or SHAD uptilt.

And trust me, even though the math does add up, it isn't a window to do it consistently against a smart Fox.

This Paragraph is confirmation pending. Scotu if you could maybe confirm this so I don't make a mistake again. This move has a 3 frame window of vulnerability, landing lag from a shorthop buffered into another move has 1 frame (1 IASA frame on SH landing), and startup of utilt has 2, hitting on frame 3. So it's three frames, not 4, which is a small clarification, almost irrelevant, but still since were talking math, whatever. The landing from a shorthop (not fastfallen as it should be for SHADing with Fox effectively) is something many people have told me lasts 1 frame.

I never said "unpunishable", I said very hard to punish. There is no unpunishable attack in the game, except (to my opinion) the Links' aerial hookshot, but it doesn't hit very hard, and of course degrades. But even with that exception that isn't really an exception all attacks and approaches can be predicted and punished, so it is a ridiculous statement that I never made.

 

[_X_]

LOL

I definately had it coming _X_. Anyone that starts a thread with that title is asking for it. I was just that confident that it would stick. Now that a videos in we can actually talk about it. And you actually come across as a nice guy now that you're not bashing me.

Thanks man, I didn't mean to like, kill you with words >_>

S'all good man

 

[Moon-Doggie]

Lucien and Fenrir are pretty much the only ones using him in tournies and Lucien doesn't even main Fox. To me this really doesn't sound like something that can change a characters metagame.

Me too, Northeastern fox right here. >___0