SCOTU
Smash Hero
Fox Uthrow > jiggs rest is sex. since it almost combos before 30%, but doesn't quite. jiggs can just rest the fox out of the uthrow, if the fox isn't very careful about how he spaces the uair.
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
lol michigan is gay...they have a river named after them lol......ontario too.....
i feel like im 7 over here.
i feel like im 7 over here.
soap
Smash Hero
i actually did notice that at low percents fox seems to simply overshoot with the fulljump uair sometimes if they are not quick enough with getting the uair out. i started doing falling sheik uair and starting my own combo. then there is the gay fox that does uthrow charge usmash and utterly ***** this strat
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I U-throw B-air Jiggs at low percent because it's difficult to mess up.
If they go in front of me (DI in front) I do Uair because the timing is super easy.
I prefer Bair at low percent because if they DI bad and I land on a platform (yay for autocancel Bair Fox is so cool) I can do nasty Fox things to their body, and there's no chance of SDI removing my hard-earned percent, and because it amounts to a 2% difference in the long run per throw assuming they miss the SDI on literally every Uair I do.
If they go in front of me (DI in front) I do Uair because the timing is super easy.
I prefer Bair at low percent because if they DI bad and I land on a platform (yay for autocancel Bair Fox is so cool) I can do nasty Fox things to their body, and there's no chance of SDI removing my hard-earned percent, and because it amounts to a 2% difference in the long run per throw assuming they miss the SDI on literally every Uair I do.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
soap
Smash Hero
ya uthrow back air is hella gay
fighting a jiggs is just gay.
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
About that Samus thing last page:
I have pretty much samus experience so yeah i can tell something about that matchup:
basically most samus players play defensive which means they are going to shoot missiles, charge their beam and wavedash back all the time. If you approach with a shffld aerial they are going to shield and than upB out of it or cc and than dsmash/dtilt. Grabs are mostly useless, bc you can't uthrow uair ...
So what you should do is let them approach, however they won't until you shoot a few lasers.
it's important to be very patient, don't try to rack up % as fast as possible, try to not get hit by missiles (I use shl rather than fj3l or shdl). If they have to approach, their options are limited, they are probably going to do the same thing they always do wd back and than space tilts or smashes (mostly ftilt), you can destroy their spacing if you simply dash at them and shield like one wd lenght back where they are standing atm (sry i couln't express it better, my english sucks lol) you can then punish their misspaced tilts or stuff with usmash oos or dair oos to waveshine to usmash.
Most of that MU is just camp, rack up % and then usmash **** in their face
sorry for so much bad english :´(
I have pretty much samus experience so yeah i can tell something about that matchup:
basically most samus players play defensive which means they are going to shoot missiles, charge their beam and wavedash back all the time. If you approach with a shffld aerial they are going to shield and than upB out of it or cc and than dsmash/dtilt. Grabs are mostly useless, bc you can't uthrow uair ...
So what you should do is let them approach, however they won't until you shoot a few lasers.
it's important to be very patient, don't try to rack up % as fast as possible, try to not get hit by missiles (I use shl rather than fj3l or shdl). If they have to approach, their options are limited, they are probably going to do the same thing they always do wd back and than space tilts or smashes (mostly ftilt), you can destroy their spacing if you simply dash at them and shield like one wd lenght back where they are standing atm (sry i couln't express it better, my english sucks lol) you can then punish their misspaced tilts or stuff with usmash oos or dair oos to waveshine to usmash.
Most of that MU is just camp, rack up % and then usmash **** in their face
sorry for so much bad english :´(
brickman
Smash Lord
Scotu posted it, look where he is from. Not too hard to know what MI means. I was just asking why there is a lack of DI in Michigan.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
yea you got the general idea. Space and don't jump into their shield because of up+b, and spam waveshine usmash/laser/bair.
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
Oh yeah bair (especially fj bair with correct spacing) is pretty important, forgot to mention that
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
i forgot to mention...
new vids: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203805
edit:
I've always had problems with Samus. Hopefully someone comes up with a super broken tactic that bypasses that stupid thing called WE CAN'T COMBO HER. : (
new vids: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203805
edit:
I've always had problems with Samus. Hopefully someone comes up with a super broken tactic that bypasses that stupid thing called WE CAN'T COMBO HER. : (
CunningKitsune
Smash Ace
Samus is a surprisingly problematic match-up for Fox if you don't have a good grasp of what you're supposed to be doing. Her shield escape and approach anticipation games are particularly irritating to the traditional Fox mindset of safe, effective approaches combined with a powerful grab and combo game.
Fortunately, Fox players do have a few surprisingly simple answers to Samus' game plan. For example, regarding her shield game, if you are put in a position where you can attack her shield, be conservative in your pressure. Don't try to be flashy and hit her shield more than once; something as simple as a properly-spaced bair will give you the tiny bit of shield pressure needed to lure out a foolhardy up-B, which should be punished accordingly. As well, while your traditional grab game lacks its usual potency against Samus, you can nevertheless use it to get Samus out of her shield and into a more vulnerable position. However, this too requires a bit of thought. If you feel that you can land a tech-chase usmash out of a dthrow, so much the better. If you choose the uthrow route, either wait for or draw out the protective nair with a jump feint, or wait for and follow the double jump escape with either a bair or uair, as appropriate. An aerial bomb drop is also an option for Samus to escape you, in which case you will need to anticipate this and follow her to the best of your ability. Overall, your bair is your safest option against an aerial Samus; just be sure that you approach mainly from her back to give yourself a better shot at overriding the nair hitbox.
Her approach anticipation and punishment are particularly unnerving to an unaware Fox; as with any other match-up, however, you absolutely must be able to move with and react to the ebbs and flows of Samus' wavedash game. To put it simply, if you telegraph your approaches over and over again, you will probably run into a few too many wavedash back-fsmashes or -dsmashes. The answer to this is really quite simple; you must anticipate any reverse wavedashes (or retreating dash-dance spacing) and overextend your approach so that you catch the Samus out of her retreat. This can be said for any match-up in the game, and it is an immeasurable boon to your offensive and pressure games. Something as simple as this bit of adaptation will do wonders in reducing how often your approach is punished and in how far you can take your offense. Remember, while the nair approach is easily among the best in the game, it nevertheless has a select few frames of vulnerability in which you can be punished. Always keep this in mind.
In a nutshell, your grab and approach games in fact are not entirely annulled by Samus' game; you simply must use them in a more intelligent and novel manner than many would at first think. However, I do believe that the best play-style against Samus is defensive (overall), but you can transition into a more aggressive approach if you pick up on certain key tendencies and patterns, such as the aforementioned repeated reverse wavedashes, jumping when pressured near the edge, up-B'ing out of shield on instinct, and so on.
Fortunately, Fox players do have a few surprisingly simple answers to Samus' game plan. For example, regarding her shield game, if you are put in a position where you can attack her shield, be conservative in your pressure. Don't try to be flashy and hit her shield more than once; something as simple as a properly-spaced bair will give you the tiny bit of shield pressure needed to lure out a foolhardy up-B, which should be punished accordingly. As well, while your traditional grab game lacks its usual potency against Samus, you can nevertheless use it to get Samus out of her shield and into a more vulnerable position. However, this too requires a bit of thought. If you feel that you can land a tech-chase usmash out of a dthrow, so much the better. If you choose the uthrow route, either wait for or draw out the protective nair with a jump feint, or wait for and follow the double jump escape with either a bair or uair, as appropriate. An aerial bomb drop is also an option for Samus to escape you, in which case you will need to anticipate this and follow her to the best of your ability. Overall, your bair is your safest option against an aerial Samus; just be sure that you approach mainly from her back to give yourself a better shot at overriding the nair hitbox.
Her approach anticipation and punishment are particularly unnerving to an unaware Fox; as with any other match-up, however, you absolutely must be able to move with and react to the ebbs and flows of Samus' wavedash game. To put it simply, if you telegraph your approaches over and over again, you will probably run into a few too many wavedash back-fsmashes or -dsmashes. The answer to this is really quite simple; you must anticipate any reverse wavedashes (or retreating dash-dance spacing) and overextend your approach so that you catch the Samus out of her retreat. This can be said for any match-up in the game, and it is an immeasurable boon to your offensive and pressure games. Something as simple as this bit of adaptation will do wonders in reducing how often your approach is punished and in how far you can take your offense. Remember, while the nair approach is easily among the best in the game, it nevertheless has a select few frames of vulnerability in which you can be punished. Always keep this in mind.
In a nutshell, your grab and approach games in fact are not entirely annulled by Samus' game; you simply must use them in a more intelligent and novel manner than many would at first think. However, I do believe that the best play-style against Samus is defensive (overall), but you can transition into a more aggressive approach if you pick up on certain key tendencies and patterns, such as the aforementioned repeated reverse wavedashes, jumping when pressured near the edge, up-B'ing out of shield on instinct, and so on.
MarkLoo
Smash Ace
great post
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
soap told me that chillin did really low, spaced Bair-Shine pressure on Watty's Shield and "fronzled" him because he couldn't Up+B through it. I'm not sure how guaranteed that is, or how perfect such pressure is, but regardless it sounds vaguely sexual, and cool, so it may be worth looking into if you have the balls and the tech skill to attempt such a thing and fux with amazingness.
Personally, I wouldn't have the balls to try something like that, I'd probably just Bair if she seems in shield and space outside her Up+B range, but it's still something to consider. If they try to Up+B AFTER the shine it probably foils the entire plan if you go for a second, but hopefully they're not that smart or you take that into consideration, realize there's no perfect pressure plan on Samus, and accept the small victory and not push your luck with more Bair-Shine.
I think people get frustrated as a whole vs Samus because they can't WD behind her after Shine, and can't continue pressuring with traditional Nair-Shine or Dair-Shine or its ilk. But, thinking about it, it's probably quite a change to a Samus's normal gameplay if you remove the normally-free percentage they get for stupid shield pressure attempts and simply wait for them to do something.
But I don't know anything so don't listen to me.
Personally, I wouldn't have the balls to try something like that, I'd probably just Bair if she seems in shield and space outside her Up+B range, but it's still something to consider. If they try to Up+B AFTER the shine it probably foils the entire plan if you go for a second, but hopefully they're not that smart or you take that into consideration, realize there's no perfect pressure plan on Samus, and accept the small victory and not push your luck with more Bair-Shine.
I think people get frustrated as a whole vs Samus because they can't WD behind her after Shine, and can't continue pressuring with traditional Nair-Shine or Dair-Shine or its ilk. But, thinking about it, it's probably quite a change to a Samus's normal gameplay if you remove the normally-free percentage they get for stupid shield pressure attempts and simply wait for them to do something.
But I don't know anything so don't listen to me.
Da Shuffla
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2008
- Messages
- 1,810
Lol "punish accordingly." I had a flashback to the old days when I first read your guide. Great post, CK.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
good read. lol
it's interesting seeing it broken down like that.
(beating a samus takes forever...)
brawlpro
Smash Master
go cunning !
SCOTU
Smash Hero
I think that CK is sexy and needs to come to my Melee tourney on the 11th.
halcyon.days
Smash Journeyman
Question about escaping grabs...
I usually just rotate my control-stick really quickly but I'm guessing I shouldn't do this because it could mess up my DI when my opponent throws? I used to jam every button but then sometimes I would accidentally waste my double jump when I got released...
So... what's the best way (when you are grabbed) to be "released"?
Also, I went to my friend's house where he held a friendly tourney. Two of my friends play good falcos and I faced both of them on FD in friendlies, resulting in me getting 4-stocked (both times). I have very little experience in this matchup which is how I got ***** so bad but one of my friends said that when he SHL I should full hop nair. Are there any other tips I can do against falco? I know chainthrow on FD is good but I never got the opportunity to grab. Also, do I DI the shine behind him? (when he shine combos) Or..?
I usually just rotate my control-stick really quickly but I'm guessing I shouldn't do this because it could mess up my DI when my opponent throws? I used to jam every button but then sometimes I would accidentally waste my double jump when I got released...
So... what's the best way (when you are grabbed) to be "released"?
Also, I went to my friend's house where he held a friendly tourney. Two of my friends play good falcos and I faced both of them on FD in friendlies, resulting in me getting 4-stocked (both times). I have very little experience in this matchup which is how I got ***** so bad but one of my friends said that when he SHL I should full hop nair. Are there any other tips I can do against falco? I know chainthrow on FD is good but I never got the opportunity to grab. Also, do I DI the shine behind him? (when he shine combos) Or..?
SCOTU
Smash Hero
mashing the z button and the cstick while holding the control stick in the right direction to DI. Makes it sound like you're struggling your *** off using the control stick, so people will think you're messing up your DI, but you aren't because you're using the cstick (which doesn't actually help you out of grabs LOL!!!!)
Make sure NOT to mash L/R as you may need them for teching.
since there's no "grab break meter" that shows how close you are to breaking out, many ppl just use the sound of their opponent's controller to see how hard they're struggling. This does a DAMMMM good job of ****ing that strategy up.
Make sure NOT to mash L/R as you may need them for teching.
since there's no "grab break meter" that shows how close you are to breaking out, many ppl just use the sound of their opponent's controller to see how hard they're struggling. This does a DAMMMM good job of ****ing that strategy up.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
i do this out of habit now. lol
because i used to be afraid that my DI would mess up if i tried to shake out of the grab.
(my first attempt at a "mindgame" lol)
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
I recorded a bunch of vids yesterday, was hoping for some advice.
Me vs. Roman
Fox vs. Marth
Fox vs. Marth
Me vs. AOI
Fox vs. Falcon
Fox vs. Luigi (FD)
Fox vs. Luigi (Dreamland)
Fox vs. Marth (this is the worst one :S)
Fox vs. Peach
Not much to work with... my fox really sucks and I'm stupid and inconsistent. x.x
Bullheaded is coming up this weekend, though, and I was planning on using Fox as a secondary. How can I land more hits/not die so frequently/combo better/kill faster?
Me vs. Roman
Fox vs. Marth
Fox vs. Marth
Me vs. AOI
Fox vs. Falcon
Fox vs. Luigi (FD)
Fox vs. Luigi (Dreamland)
Fox vs. Marth (this is the worst one :S)
Fox vs. Peach
Not much to work with... my fox really sucks and I'm stupid and inconsistent. x.x
Bullheaded is coming up this weekend, though, and I was planning on using Fox as a secondary. How can I land more hits/not die so frequently/combo better/kill faster?
SCOTU
Smash Hero
Don't miss the edge.
also note: there are more ways to edgehog than reverse up bs.
lol, i'm just being Captain Obvious today.
also note: there are more ways to edgehog than reverse up bs.
lol, i'm just being Captain Obvious today.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
nice, i like fox, he's a really good and fun character to play
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
wow. you're not too good at smashboards... or are you?
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
hannah montana will always be better
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
We should play at Bullheaded. All of the top 10 in Canada are coming for a big Canada vs. U.S. crew battle too.Bullheaded is coming up this weekend, though, and I was planning on using Fox as a secondary. How can I land more hits/not die so frequently/combo better/kill faster?
This weekend is going to be epiicc.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
i think you guys will do well, also, i think charles isn't going since he quit
I.B
Smash Lord
wth, I thought he's going with Pakman, M2K and them?
FYASKO
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2008
- Messages
- 125
oh hai so i just read the last few pages.
and all this talk of a gaynex thread sounds sexual,
because its really detailed, helpful, and stuff.
but might i suggest something o.o ?
dont do it in the fox boards,
idk if it would work too well
but i think melee discussion would be more appropriate.
i mean,
all (or most of) what i read from you bernie can be applied in sooo many different scenarios with a lot of different characters,
tbqh i think putting it in the melee discussion boards would be better for a few reasons
1. not everyone visits the fox boards, and you're advice and ...stuff, is really educational ya know,
why not share it with all the melee players? i think it would be nice to have something the melee community as a whole can join in and discuss. o.o
2. the melee boards are dead
and when theyre not dead theyre just plain stupid.
-.-
3. you know a lot about a lot of character specific topics ( im saying this from my own experience talking with / practicing with you.
4. i had a bunch of individual points but ****ed up and sum'd them all up into the first 3. @_@
... just saying XP
edit:
oh yeah:
5. theres many idiots who are allowed to own controllers and play super smash brothers melee for the nintendo game cube. D8
ie. me ^o^
and all this talk of a gaynex thread sounds sexual,
because its really detailed, helpful, and stuff.
but might i suggest something o.o ?
dont do it in the fox boards,
idk if it would work too well
but i think melee discussion would be more appropriate.
i mean,
all (or most of) what i read from you bernie can be applied in sooo many different scenarios with a lot of different characters,
tbqh i think putting it in the melee discussion boards would be better for a few reasons
1. not everyone visits the fox boards, and you're advice and ...stuff, is really educational ya know,
why not share it with all the melee players? i think it would be nice to have something the melee community as a whole can join in and discuss. o.o
2. the melee boards are dead
and when theyre not dead theyre just plain stupid.
-.-
3. you know a lot about a lot of character specific topics ( im saying this from my own experience talking with / practicing with you.
4. i had a bunch of individual points but ****ed up and sum'd them all up into the first 3. @_@
... just saying XP
edit:
oh yeah:
5. theres many idiots who are allowed to own controllers and play super smash brothers melee for the nintendo game cube. D8
ie. me ^o^
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
ask him, unless he lied to everyone at spoc, he even gave his controller to jman, if charles is lying, then i'm never gonna trust him again
Silent Wolf
...
. .
NOOO..cactus cant quit...
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If Cactuar quits I swear I will kill all of you IRL.
brawlpro
Smash Master
aww, frigin cactus was amazin at e52
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
You'll be the first to die.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
can i get next?
plz?
Lol.
I'll be at Bullheaded, but I'm gonna be using a ****ty controller for most of it because I really did give mine to Jman.
I will also be the team captain for crew battles.
First we are going to do Canada vs NJ/PA/NY. If they manage to beat tri-state, we will give them a shot at the rigged USA crew, which will just sub out a few of the tri-staters and throw in darkrain, kdj, cort, etc.
Also, I will be money matching people with my Fox/Marth/Falco/Falcon.
I'll be at Bullheaded, but I'm gonna be using a ****ty controller for most of it because I really did give mine to Jman.
I will also be the team captain for crew battles.
First we are going to do Canada vs NJ/PA/NY. If they manage to beat tri-state, we will give them a shot at the rigged USA crew, which will just sub out a few of the tri-staters and throw in darkrain, kdj, cort, etc.
Also, I will be money matching people with my Fox/Marth/Falco/Falcon.