Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[brickman]

true, I suppose. I just felt like it today. what's the problem?

 

[LumpyCPU...]

true, I suppose. I just felt like it today. what's the problem?

no problem. lol
i was just raising an objection to your statement.

 

[brickman]

no Problem. Lol
I Was Just Raising An Objection To Your Statement.

Objection?!

 

[LumpyCPU...]

 

[brickman]

thank you for this.

<3

 

[LumpyCPU...]

anytime. lol

so... *shuffles back to legit conversation*
when i'm fox, i tend to have issues with approaching.
while i'm not a very slow fox, i tend to play defensive (especially after the first couple stock).
i've noticed that the people i play like to do this too. they always punish me when i try to approach.
then i'll catch on and we'll kind of just space random aerials until one of us makes a mistake.

are there any "safe bets" for fox to aproach marths or foxes with?

 

[brickman]

nairs get destroyed pretty often it seems. not even worth trying to dair in a lot of cases. just feel out your fox/marth and throw in some random stuff. best way to get something done is with something unexpected. sometimes my approach is run shine turn around back air or run u tilt/ jc u smash.

just play stupid, it works on good players really well. (serious face)

 

[JonaDiaper]

run right by them, dash cancel, fsmash them

 

[brickman]

run right by them, dash cancel, fsmash them

example of hilarious approach. We have a winner!

 

[soap]

run right by them, dash cancel, fsmash them

i do this with every character i play no joke

 

[brickman]

I guess that's perfect for marth, now that I think of it. I probably do it more than I realize, too.

 

[soap]

wait correction, i usually walk past people, it is funnier that way

 

[brickman]

marth/fox walking is hilarious. it is the silliest/ somehow effective mindgame.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

LMAO yeah.
i love just walking sometimes with fox, falco, or marth. (mainly marth)
haha but i do like to aproach with random shines and shine turnaround bairs.
but nothing really penetrates (giggidy) a really defensive marth, imo.
idk. maybe i just suck ha

 

[I.B]

either bait with random empty short hop stuff or just go in with an aerial and follow up accordingly. watch some PC and you'll see teh sex.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

yeah. lol
i need to watch some more matches.
when i approach with a random aerial, a marth can react well enough to avoid or inturrupt it.
(benefit of playing defensive, i guess)

i'll watch a few vids and try not to think a little more. lol

 

[Da Shuffla]

I remember seeing this match b/t PC and M2K on PK stadium where PC just kept dding. Too funny. On a serious note, just don't run around doing random aerials. That was my style until yesterday when I had my epiphany. You have to run around, laser, dd, wd, run up and shield, whatever, in order to bait out a response from the opponent that you can take advantage of. I used to watch vids of pros and think "what are they doing? Why are they shielding and wavedashing randomly?" They weren't. They were waiting for the other to screw up. This reminds me of a match between Shiz and Forward that I had seen. For the first, at least, ten seconds of the match, they had done nothing but laser each other. They knew that if they had rushed in randomly, they would be comboed for a hefty percentage. You need to be patient and not rush out just trying to hit your opponent. Wait for your opening, and then crush, kill, and destroy.

 

[brickman]

I remember seeing this match b/t PC and M2K on PK stadium where PC just kept dding. Too funny. On a serious note, just don't run around doing random aerials. That was my style until yesterday when I had my epiphany. You have to run around, laser, dd, wd, run up and shield, whatever, in order to bait out a response from the opponent that you can take advantage of. I used to watch vids of pros and think "what are they doing? Why are they shielding and wavedashing randomly?" They weren't. They were waiting for the other to screw up. This reminds me of a match between Shiz and Forward that I had seen. For the first, at least, ten seconds of the match, they had done nothing but laser each other. They knew that if they had rushed in randomly, they would be comboed for a hefty percentage. You need to be patient and not rush out just trying to hit your opponent. Wait for your opening, and then crush, kill, and destroy.

Understandable interpretation. Still, I believe there is room for "randomness" in the sense that these actions can elicit reactions from your opponent that can be considered openings. While it has a higher degree of risk as opposed to simply out spacing them and looking for a technical mess up, you've created a stylistic characteristic that can be beneficial. I'm not going to say ******* around on stage and just running in and out and doing things will be effective, because any serious pro will destroy you for such a constant barrage of simple play, but I believe that in small quantities, these random moves and approaches can add a lot to your game by creating openings or learning important things about your opponents style.

long live lazer camping, too.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

long live lazer camping, too.

id rather lose than camp :/

 

[Tero.]

id rather lose than camp :/

lolwut?

10lasers

edit: most of the time i play as gay as possible so yeah laser camping ftw

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i know what you mean. like... it looks like they're running around doing random things, but really they're waiting for something they can punish. playing completely reactive...

and watching some1 get laser camped always makes me smile.
i find it funny. ('cept when i'm the one getting camped)
hahaha

 

[I.B]

I remember seeing this match b/t PC and M2K on PK stadium where PC just kept dding. Too funny. On a serious note, just don't run around doing random aerials. That was my style until yesterday when I had my epiphany. You have to run around, laser, dd, wd, run up and shield, whatever, in order to bait out a response from the opponent that you can take advantage of. I used to watch vids of pros and think "what are they doing? Why are they shielding and wavedashing randomly?" They weren't. They were waiting for the other to screw up. This reminds me of a match between Shiz and Forward that I had seen. For the first, at least, ten seconds of the match, they had done nothing but laser each other. They knew that if they had rushed in randomly, they would be comboed for a hefty percentage. You need to be patient and not rush out just trying to hit your opponent. Wait for your opening, and then crush, kill, and destroy.

AKA, Camping. That's just playing off how bad the opponent is.

Shouldn't someone be working towards being able to pressure or manipulate their opponents into making an opportunity for lots of % or loss of stock?

 

[LumpyCPU...]

yeah.
more often then not, i don't have the patients to commit to camping. LOL
i end up rushing and trying to shield pressure. then he'll tip his shield up (it ****s up my Lcancels)
then i'll get shield grabbed. or i'll just mess up cuz i suck. lol

 

[Da Shuffla]

Part of what I meant was dding and wding, etc. to pressure the opponent. If you pressure and frustrate them, then they might make a hasty move. I thought that camping was mostly evasion. I meant weaving in and out of someone's space to make them take an expected option.

 

[brickman]

camping is always hilarious, it makes them make a move, but as lumpy said, being a completely reactive player can and does have it's benefits, but waiting for your opponent to mess up or do something silly can have its drawbacks. he can **** you up.

So while lazer camping does destroy in a couple of instances, and so does just waiting and reading out your opponent, you can throw some "random" stuff in there and change the entire pace of the match. speed it up, against your traditional campy players, slow it down against your super agro players. Whatever approach your opponent has your goal is to counter it. Being random against pros who have a definite system of kicking your *** across the stage can have its advantages, but playing into their hand and playing the way they want you to play will benefit you none, and ultimately you'll be ***** by their play style.

Force them to **** up their style, even if it means in the process you take a couple of percent. It'll throw them off and probably benefit a bit too.

 

[I.B]

Part of what I meant was dding and wding, etc. to pressure the opponent. If you pressure and frustrate them, then they might make a hasty move. I thought that camping was mostly evasion. I meant weaving in and out of someone's space to make them take an expected option.

Oh, I thought you meant just dding and wding on one side waiting for them to **** up their approach or something along those lines. I approve of getting in their space and messing with their head

camping is always hilarious, it makes them make a move, but as lumpy said, being a completely reactive player can and does have it's benefits, but waiting for your opponent to mess up or do something silly can have its drawbacks. he can **** you up.

So while lazer camping does destroy in a couple of instances, and so does just waiting and reading out your opponent, you can throw some "random" stuff in there and change the entire pace of the match. speed it up, against your traditional campy players, slow it down against your super agro players. Whatever approach your opponent has your goal is to counter it. Being random against pros who have a definite system of kicking your *** across the stage can have its advantages, but playing into their hand and playing the way they want you to play will benefit you none, and ultimately you'll be ***** by their play style.

Force them to **** up their style, even if it means in the process you take a couple of percent. It'll throw them off and probably benefit a bit too.

I was talking more about the players who completely rely on a reactive style. If you're dependent on waiting for the opponent to **** up, you miss out on learning how to pressure them properly, which is a really useful skill to have.

Also, what exactly do you have in mind when you talk about throwing in "random" stuff? I mean, it's good to be able switch up your style, but doing random ineffective moves in an attempt to "throw off" your opponent will get you killed against anyone skilled.

 

[RaynEX]

It doesn't matter how random you are if you just get grabbed. The truth is, the majority of players out there still have horrendous combo d.i. and really bad precision, control, and a consistent level of technicality @ high level play with their Fox. Oh, and they are really, really dumb.

Being random and trying to run and around and WD / look for openings has its 'fail' points. First of all, DD/space camping and refusing to approach will probably make the match turn into something like this (vs. a seasoned melee player)

:

you DD camp and WD randomly and decide to not approach

Your opponent gets smart and overshoots a grab/dash attack with Marth for example

your stock disappears.

The more random you try to be, the more REPETITIVE you actually end up becoming. There are only so many ways you can use your WD and empty SHFFLs to trick your opponent. Eventually, you will start developing some predictable patterns of movement that will work against you in the long run. (i.e.: You DD left/right/left then WD back and run backwards. Your opponent guesses that when he runs close you'll run away, dash attacks or grabs a little bit farther than usual and gets you.)

When it comes to being really good at this game, its all about finding the best and most rewarding styles of play - then emulating them.

Ken, P.C. Chris, KDJ, Isai (I'm intentionally not counting M2K because his ledge-camp/gimp Marth style is really stupid and repetitive - and can be half-avoided by camping back and not going to the ledge)

The common trend we see between all the top players is that they were ALL AGGRESSIVE. They never excessively DD/Laser/Ledge camped. Force your way into your opponents space by reading them and cornering them. Once you get a grab or move do as much damage as possible, and don't screw up. When you knock them off the stage, keep them off. Don't do this half *** **** where you DD around the edge and wait for them to come back on. USE YOUR HEAD AND FORCE THEM OFF.

I could go on and on with this. General idea is that random, campy, and technical are all overrated. Its about being 1. smart, 2. technically sound (not missing l cancels, edge-guards, 3. not being random and actually having a plan when it comes to things like countering camping/ledge-guarding/move selection while stringing together a combo.

This is kind of stuff you watch the pros do but need to learn yourself.

 

[brickman]

Raynex destroys my argument, and I've never been happier.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

incredible post rayn

 

[Smooth Criminal]

He forgot to put the word "American" in front of "players" when addressing bad combo DI.

lol

<3 Canada. You guys do nothing but help.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ryan-K]

(I'm intentionally not counting M2K because his ledge-camp/gimp Marth style is really stupid and repetitive - and can be half-avoided by camping back and not going to the ledge)

yeah pretty much, thats how jman beat him

 

[RaynEX]

thanks guys.

Unfortunately, camping is much too powerful in this game - sort of like Brawl. Marths like Ken/Azen found ways around every kind of Fox. Their aggro style of play, adaptive mindset, planned/precise movement and edge-guarding helped them excel in almost every kind of situation.

If all your opponent does is camp, you have two options in this game. When I mean two options, I meantwo options that will work. You can probably run at them headfirst, stand and reflect, or spam rolls/sidesteps. But I'm trying to give you an answer that will actually get you somewhere.

1. Camp back. This is the most obvious. Your matches turn into something like vidjo vs. spamer. Campy anything vs. campy anything = match over 6min

2. Be aggressive, but USE YOUR HEAD. If they continually laser for example, they'll always be moving away from you.

I know I've used this analogy before, but try to think of the edges of the stage as if they were the edges of a boxing ring. Your objective is to corner them and reduce the amount of space they have to move around in without getting hit, then dealing maximum damage (because we all know that in high-level melee 1 or 2 moves = huge damage or death).

Once you've pushed them into this type of position. They'll start getting REALLY predictable. If they try to jump, and you just happen to predict their double jump, its over. If you're Fox, stop them with bair and proceed to force them off with shine -> edge-guard. If you are Marth you can cover their aerial escapes with uair and utilt and take away their jumps by using common sense (i.e.: where they will land after they jump, or intercepting them mid-air after their double jump to set up a crazy Marth combo).

Other things that people do way too often when cornered:

-Roll. Everyone loves to roll.

-Sidestep. This is usually limited Peach/Sheik because they have stupid fast sidesteps. In my experience in happens alot vs. Peach. They get up then sidestep -> dsmash. Really dumb.

-Jump.

I'm rambling again, but what I want to stress in this post is that:

manipulating your opponent by using factors such as stage/space control, trains them to be more predictable when they are cornered/camping...even approaching.

Mindgames is a very mis-used word. But I think what I just described fits somewhere into the 'Mindgames' category.

 

[joeplicate]

so, what do you do against jigglypuff

 

[I.B]

CAAAAAAMP! lol

 

[RaynEX]

Personally:

I don't like to camp excessively vs. Jiggs. I will sometimes, but thats only if the Jiggs doesn't want to approach and decides to ledge camp or bair camp. Lasers should be used to coerce your opponent to 'real-fight' you, and stop running. Because in real fighting Fox usually wins.

My strategy vs. Jiggs is all mid-range. I use the level I'm on to dance around the Puff and find openings. Not staying too close or too far, so when she wiffs I get a grab or move -> punish. Space control.

Because Jiggs likes to keep everything out and usually doesn't like to approach, control the space around her so that when she decides to come out of her shell you are ready for it. I constantly keep my Fox moving on the ground and on platforms so my fingers are ready and I feel I'm fast enough to react to a missed pound or whatever. Alternate dash-ins with a WD oos shield game and platform WD trixies. lol it sounds really stupid but I swear mid-range baiting works well if you focus and react.

Thats basically how I beat hungrybox in Kansas. It was either camp and win, rambo and lose, or try something new.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

so, what do you do against jigglypuff

bring a tent

 

[DtJ Jungle]

rayn god ****it this is why you need your own god **** thread.

 

[brickman]

rayn god ****it this is why you need your own god **** thread.

this is, essentially.

 

[Tero.]

rayn god ****it this is why you need your own god **** thread.

seconded

10raynthreads

 

[DtJ Jungle]

peer pressure buddy...peer pressure.