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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Smooth Criminal

Smooth Criminal

Da Cheef
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
13,576
Location
Hinckley, Minnesota
NNID
boundless_light
RaynEX said:
hmm...

I don't want to develop and big head and become an attention *****.

Unless you guys REALLY want me to do it. lol
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Go for it, Rayn. Nothing will change.

(And besides, you are already kind of famous here in the US. Lots of people have nothing but good things to say about you.)

Smooth Criminal
 
joeplicate

joeplicate

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
4,842
Location
alameda, ca
raynex, that sounds good hahaha

controlling the space around jiggs seems like a really useful concept; every time I camp, it's run to a corner, get two laser jumps in, get cornered D:

other than that I think I should be more aggressive after getting the first hit in, nair nair nair nair nair at low percents and mess him up after a grab

thanks
 
RaynEX

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
Smooth Criminal said:
Go for it, Rayn. Nothing will change.

(And besides, you are already kind of famous here in the US. Lots of people have nothing but good things to say about you.)

Smooth Criminal
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thanks. I might make a thread. Not sure.

joeplicate said:
raynex, that sounds good hahaha

controlling the space around jiggs seems like a really useful concept; every time I camp, it's run to a corner, get two laser jumps in, get cornered D

other than that I think I should be more aggressive after getting the first hit in, nair nair nair nair nair at low percents and mess him up after a grab

thanks
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lol If you get more than 2 nairs on a Jiggs play against someone else. Their d.i. must REALLY suck.

.Tero said:
Go for it :)

You are also kind of famous in Europe ^^
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lol. my ***. : p

joeplicate said:
on a related note

is the set where jman beat m2k online?
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nah. I can run it down for you though.

camp = win.

edit:

1. run

2. laser

3. .....

4. ???? (laser)

5. profit
 
Ryan-K

Ryan-K

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 23, 2003
Messages
3,107
Location
Staten Island, NY
RaynEX said:
nah. I can run it down for you though.

camp = win.

edit:

1. run

2. laser

3. .....

4. ???? (laser)

5. profit
Click to expand...
nah son more like

1) get beat barely by actually fighting
2) **** on counterpicks
3) **** in fox dittos on neutrals

also yeah i hate camping or fighting camping, campy fox destroys the point of playing fox lol -_-
 
Da Shuffla

Da Shuffla

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
1,810
On Jiggs?

Good advice, Rayn. I faced an opponent today whom I could have annihilated, had I taken the more aggressive approach. I won, but playing him made me realize just how important being aggressive is.
 
soap

soap

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
7,229
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
RaynEX said:
thanks guys.

Unfortunately, camping is much too powerful in this game - sort of like Brawl. Marths like Ken/Azen found ways around every kind of Fox. Their aggro style of play, adaptive mindset, planned/precise movement and edge-guarding helped them excel in almost every kind of situation.

If all your opponent does is camp, you have two options in this game. When I mean two options, I meantwo options that will work. You can probably run at them headfirst, stand and reflect, or spam rolls/sidesteps. But I'm trying to give you an answer that will actually get you somewhere.

1. Camp back. This is the most obvious. Your matches turn into something like vidjo vs. spamer. Campy anything vs. campy anything = match over 6min

2. Be aggressive, but USE YOUR HEAD. If they continually laser for example, they'll always be moving away from you.

I know I've used this analogy before, but try to think of the edges of the stage as if they were the edges of a boxing ring. Your objective is to corner them and reduce the amount of space they have to move around in without getting hit, then dealing maximum damage (because we all know that in high-level melee 1 or 2 moves = huge damage or death).

Once you've pushed them into this type of position. They'll start getting REALLY predictable. If they try to jump, and you just happen to predict their double jump, its over. If you're Fox, stop them with bair and proceed to force them off with shine -> edge-guard. If you are Marth you can cover their aerial escapes with uair and utilt and take away their jumps by using common sense (i.e.: where they will land after they jump, or intercepting them mid-air after their double jump to set up a crazy Marth combo).

Other things that people do way too often when cornered:

-Roll. Everyone loves to roll.

-Sidestep. This is usually limited Peach/Sheik because they have stupid fast sidesteps. In my experience in happens alot vs. Peach. They get up then sidestep -> dsmash. Really dumb.

-Jump.

I'm rambling again, but what I want to stress in this post is that:

manipulating your opponent by using factors such as stage/space control, trains them to be more predictable when they are cornered/camping...even approaching.

Mindgames is a very mis-used word. But I think what I just described fits somewhere into the 'Mindgames' category.
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how do u counter wavedash out of shield, like im trying to cover one of those predictable jump or sidestep options and they just wavedash out then start doing moves. just react faster?
 
RaynEX

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
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Corneria, Lylat System
Unknown522 is at my house right now playing.

During fox dittos I'd try to WD oos shield towards him. He'd just shine/usmash me to knock me down, then chase. So yea, you have to react to it.
 
B

brickman

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
1,282
Location
Kansas City, MO
CanISmash said:
what if im getting wd back f-tilt / f-smash....
then d-smashed when i try to catch onto there tomfoolery.
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Up smash him to kingdom come. he wants distance from you so he do his little rockets and other bs, but stay tight, don't let him up-b you too much and get away from you. Play smart and get him off the top of the stage with u-airs utilts and upsmashes.
 
DtJ Jungle

DtJ Jungle

Check out my character in #GranblueFantasy
BRoomer
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Grancypher
there are ways around it...raynex did a post on it but i dont remember what it said.
 
DtJ Jungle

DtJ Jungle

Check out my character in #GranblueFantasy
BRoomer
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...and thend o what? you cant uair she goes too high if she DI's it right.

out of uthrow obviously...
 
RaynEX

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
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Corneria, Lylat System
junglefever6478 said:
there are ways around it...raynex did a post on it but i dont remember what it said.
Click to expand...
found it:

Raynex said:
You can't uthrow uair. I don't think you can waveshine usmash if they d.i. correctly. Samus can CC your nair, bair, dtilt, utilt, jab...

Edge-guarding her is sometimes a *****. Oh, and you can't hit her shield because if you do she automatically gets free damage on you. Her up+b has frames of invincibility on start-up so she doesn't even have to wait for your shine on her shield before she does it. She can simply wait for you to nair or dair her shield then up+b right through your shine. Her spin attack will clink with shine and keep going. Hugs showed me this the hard way @ Pound 3.

Basically, Samus is gay and you can't do alot to her. Thats what makes it even. If she didn't have such an annoying shield game Fox would probably **** her.
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hehe, Samus is gay.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
RaynEX said:
It doesn't matter how random you are if you just get grabbed. The truth is, the majority of players out there still have horrendous combo d.i. and really bad precision, control, and a consistent level of technicality @ high level play with their Fox. Oh, and they are really, really dumb.

Being random and trying to run and around and WD / look for openings has its 'fail' points. First of all, DD/space camping and refusing to approach will probably make the match turn into something like this (vs. a seasoned melee player)

:

you DD camp and WD randomly and decide to not approach

Your opponent gets smart and overshoots a grab/dash attack with Marth for example

your stock disappears.

The more random you try to be, the more REPETITIVE you actually end up becoming. There are only so many ways you can use your WD and empty SHFFLs to trick your opponent. Eventually, you will start developing some predictable patterns of movement that will work against you in the long run. (i.e.: You DD left/right/left then WD back and run backwards. Your opponent guesses that when he runs close you'll run away, dash attacks or grabs a little bit farther than usual and gets you.)

When it comes to being really good at this game, its all about finding the best and most rewarding styles of play - then emulating them.

Ken, P.C. Chris, KDJ, Isai (I'm intentionally not counting M2K because his ledge-camp/gimp Marth style is really stupid and repetitive - and can be half-avoided by camping back and not going to the ledge)

The common trend we see between all the top players is that they were ALL AGGRESSIVE. They never excessively DD/Laser/Ledge camped. Force your way into your opponents space by reading them and cornering them. Once you get a grab or move do as much damage as possible, and don't screw up. When you knock them off the stage, keep them off. Don't do this half *** **** where you DD around the edge and wait for them to come back on. USE YOUR HEAD AND FORCE THEM OFF.

I could go on and on with this. General idea is that random, campy, and technical are all overrated. Its about being 1. smart, 2. technically sound (not missing l cancels, edge-guards, 3. not being random and actually having a plan when it comes to things like countering camping/ledge-guarding/move selection while stringing together a combo.

This is kind of stuff you watch the pros do but need to learn yourself.
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wow raynex you're so smart can you teach me how to play fox all i do is nair and shine and i suck
 
SCOTU

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
MI
I was talking about Fox using a uthrow and no one in MI being able to DI it. Ppl just like SDI the uair instead. Or Luladin rest. He frikin came up w/ the perfect combo breaker because he's in MI and can't DI the fox uthrow.
 
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