Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Geranimo]

http://youtu.be/WICcFChXlTI?t=1m4s

Does someone know how leffen is moonwalking like that? I already have hard time moonwalking with falcon, don't ask me to do it with fox...

 

[Bones0]

http://youtu.be/WICcFChXlTI?t=1m4s

Does someone know how leffen is moonwalking like that? I already have hard time moonwalking with falcon, don't ask me to do it with fox...

WD or walk instead of dashing.

 

[Geranimo]

When I WD I can't moonwalk backwards and when I walk instead of dashing I crounch when my joystick hits down

 

[dRevan64]

When I WD I can't moonwalk backwards and when I walk instead of dashing I crounch when my joystick hits down

http://youtu.be/WICcFChXlTI?t=1m4s

Does someone know how leffen is moonwalking like that? I already have hard time moonwalking with falcon, don't ask me to do it with fox...

It's the same motion, just with a different initial input. If you have a hard time falcon moonwalking fox won't be any easier, so practice more.

 

[PGH Carroll]

Figured id leave this here :^)

 

[Bones0]

When I WD I can't moonwalk backwards and when I walk instead of dashing I crounch when my joystick hits down

Idk what you mean when you say you can't moonwalk "backwards". You can only moonwalk in the same direction of your initial momentum (whether it be a dash, walk, or WD).

If you crouch, it's because you didn't dash backwards before rolling the stick downwards (backwards meaning the opposite direction of your initial movement).

 

[Geranimo]

Thanks, it's alot more clear now

 

[g_f]

why shinegrabbing after hitting a shield with the dair, as opposed to just grabbing right after the l-cancel? large shield stun advantage due to shine?

EDIT

i've witnessed a way to edgeguard dr.mario similar to the marth killer, using hard shield rather than light shield. i've not been able to pull it out consistently though, because the mother****er shieldstabs. do i need to tilt the shield in a particular direction? so far i tried out full left-toward, slightly angled up, slightly angled down, and shield stab seems to happen at random. i have no clue.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I do not believe that works on Doc. shinegrabbing is way better in that situation. If you notice your opponent is holding their shield for awhile then that may open up nair/dair>grab.

 

[Bones0]

why shinegrabbing after hitting a shield with the dair, as opposed to just grabbing right after the l-cancel? large shield stun advantage due to shine?

EDIT

i've witnessed a way to edgeguard dr.mario similar to the marth killer, using hard shield rather than light shield. i've not been able to pull it out consistently though, because the mother****er shieldstabs. do i need to tilt the shield in a particular direction? so far i tried out full left-toward, slightly angled up, slightly angled down, and shield stab seems to happen at random. i have no clue.

You can grab immediately after aerials, but the shine protects you from shield grab attempts before shines. A lot of characters will not be very afraid of going for grabs after aerials because best case scenario they grab you and likely do some huge combo/lead to a KO, and the worst case scenario is they slide away or maybe get knocked down where you won't be able to convert 100%.

If you shine their shield first, it protects you from the first shield grab opportunity, and the second shield grab opportunity is usually riskier for most characters. If they try to shield grab after shine and you nair/dair, you can get a solid punish, and if they hold shield in anticipation of an immediate nair/dair, they are exposed to a shine grab.

You can't Marth-killer edgeguard Doc because his up-B hits multiple times. You probably aren't even being shield poked, just shield DIing off stage into the next hit. The only way I could imagine it working is if they are at a specific distance so that only the last hit of their up-B will hit you, but that's totally unreliable. The only time you should be using the Marth-killer vs. Doc's recovery is when he throws a pill at you by the ledge. You can shield DI the pill onto the ledge and immediately LH bair him if he is spaced improperly.

 

[Chab]

so i didnt read the thread at all cuz its over 700 pages long. (sorry)

my question is a very broad one. so ill give you a brief summary. i came back to smash exactly 22 days ago with a very small understanding of a few advanced techniques. (wd'ing , shffl'ing , edge canceling(is that what its called?) etc..)
i played basically only captain falcon up until today, i've recorded the number of hours i play everyday and its surprisingly very good atm.

fox just seems so interesting to me as a character and i am playing him because i think hes legitimately awesome. (no ****s about the tier list)
i will still play falcon but my question for anyone whos reading this is.

What are the MOST important things for a fox player to start practicing immediately. i have a few drills that i set up for myself to train certain tech but if you guys have any other "drills" that i can use to optimize practice time that would be great.

here's what im already decent at.
-Wavedash 90% of the time its super clean and long. ( can basically do fd in 4-5 wavedashes? ive never actually counted)

-SHFFL'ing getting better and since falcons short hop wasnt that easy to use. i can short hop with fox a lot better then i used to be able to.

-DashDancing I actually got worse at this once i started wavedashing. BUT i do use it and when i do i personally feel like its really hard to read and i incorporate wavedashing into it to add a bit more effect. (idk if this is actually useful)

-Waveshining Just started practicing today I can get it sometimes but sometimes I shine and try to do the clean long wavedash and i end up just not doing anything at all. ( do i need to wavedash on an exact frame, if so **** this character)

-MultiShining I can double shine but I honestly dont see how im gonna implement it into my game any time soon so i will probably hold off on that.

JC upsmash/grab Ok i need help here. when i wanna JC upsmash. I dash then i do a quarter circle from 6 to 8 (imagine a number pad on your keyboard. sorry if you dont get it it's marvel notation.) after the quater circle forward i just press a and a fast upsmash comes out ( is that what i should be looking for.)
as for the grab part. i only ever practice it in actual matches with my boiz . i use y then z to jc grab.

thanks for reading this. and for anyone who would actually wanna know. i hold the controller pretty normally nothing weird. i use c stick for aerials (Sometimes bad habit of back airing with a) i use y to jump and L to airdodge for WD.



TL;DR suck my a$$ if you didnt read it 8-)

 

[Bones0]

TL;DR suck my a$$ if you didnt read it 8-)

These are my recommended priorities for the fastest improvement:

1. Dash dancing: Simply not getting hit and punishing mistakes is really powerful vs. most players.

2. Grabbing: Combine with #1 for the most potent usage. Learn when uthrow combos into stuff and practice so you never mess up. Dropping guaranteed throw combos should feel like the equivalent of SDing.

3. Platforms: Become consistent with your wavelands and get a good idea of how you can maneuver around plats to avoid the opponent and get back down in a more advantageous position. Keep your attacking from platforms limited to quick run-offs into FFs. SHing from side plats into the center of the stage is a bad habit that most good players will punish consistently.

4. SHFFLs: Like grabbing, it should be combined heavily with DDing. Make your goal to avoid SHFFLing onto peoples' shields. If they are shielding, you should be grabbing (empty land if you must), and if they aren't shielding, you should be nairing/dairing. You will inevitably SHFFL onto their shield which is fine as long as you keep your pressure short and safe (late aerial, shine, early fadeaway aerial OR late aerial, shine, grab).

 

[Geranimo]

I have a question regarding dropping through platforms:

I presently use the shield drop, is it the best method? When I'm standing I lightshield and lightly move my joystick down, and when I'm dashing I put my joystick down and I light shield. Also I do it with R so if I do an aerial I can Lcancel with my habitual L.

Also, this time regarding lasers:

When I do running SH FF lasers, I often turn around without wanting it, like if when I release my joystick from the dash the momentum of the joystick makes him go further and it makes me turn around. Is my controller not normal or I just have to let my thumb on the joystick so I can prevent it from turning me around?

Thanks

 

[Bones0]

I have a question regarding dropping through platforms:

I presently use the shield drop, is it the best method? When I'm standing I lightshield and lightly move my joystick down, and when I'm dashing I put my joystick down and I light shield. Also I do it with R so if I do an aerial I can Lcancel with my habitual L.

Also, this time regarding lasers:

When I do running SH FF lasers, I often turn around without wanting it, like if when I release my joystick from the dash the momentum of the joystick makes him go further and it makes me turn around. Is my controller not normal or I just have to let my thumb on the joystick so I can prevent it from turning me around?

Thanks

Shield dropping is faster than dropping through normally, but only by a few frames so if you aren't confident in your shield drops, it's better to just Isai drop (which is when you walk forward for 1 frame to interrupt the landing animation before dropping through).

Is your controller really new? I feel like when I ordered new controllers, this was a problem, but as I broke them in a bit, it didn't happen as much. It's totally possible that your stick is just messed up though. Also make sure your controller isn't drifting because you plugged it in when holding a direction on the stick. If you plug the controller in with the stick pushed left, it will mess with this sort of stuff. I'd just ask an experienced player to try it out for you.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

When I do running SH FF lasers, I often turn around without wanting it, like if when I release my joystick from the dash the momentum of the joystick makes him go further and it makes me turn around. Is my controller not normal or I just have to let my thumb on the joystick so I can prevent it from turning me around?

This sounds like recoil from the spring/stick being so new still. A friend bought 3 different white controllers in hopes of getting one with no recoil for that exact reason with no luck. I have two new white ones and it seems the more broken in they get, the less recoil there is. One doesn't do it really at all anymore. A good way to test this is, on the character select screen, move the hand all the way to the side and keep flicking your stick that direction. The hand shouldn't come off the wall of the screen, if it does your controller has some recoil still.

 

[Geranimo]

Yeah my controller is really new, I own it for about 3 weeks, the white japanese one. Before I had these heavy wavebirds, I ordered this one because wavebirds have some delay on wiis. But they weren't turning me around, owned them for over a decade playing mario kart with friends

 

[Chab]

These are my recommended priorities for the fastest improvement:

1. Dash dancing: Simply not getting hit and punishing mistakes is really powerful vs. most players.

2. Grabbing: Combine with #1 for the most potent usage. Learn when uthrow combos into stuff and practice so you never mess up. Dropping guaranteed throw combos should feel like the equivalent of SDing.

3. Platforms: Become consistent with your wavelands and get a good idea of how you can maneuver around plats to avoid the opponent and get back down in a more advantageous position. Keep your attacking from platforms limited to quick run-offs into FFs. SHing from side plats into the center of the stage is a bad habit that most good players will punish consistently.

4. SHFFLs: Like grabbing, it should be combined heavily with DDing. Make your goal to avoid SHFFLing onto peoples' shields. If they are shielding, you should be grabbing (empty land if you must), and if they aren't shielding, you should be nairing/dairing. You will inevitably SHFFL onto their shield which is fine as long as you keep your pressure short and safe (late aerial, shine, early fadeaway aerial OR late aerial, shine, grab).

been applying shffl out of DD a lot more now thanks to you telling me to. grabbing is still weird on fox for me. im gonna practice a whole week of wavelanding sometime soon see how fast i can improve.

i just bought a new white controller. its coming on the 14th of february. scared of losing tech skill !!!

 

[Bones0]

been applying shffl out of DD a lot more now thanks to you telling me to. grabbing is still weird on fox for me. im gonna practice a whole week of wavelanding sometime soon see how fast i can improve.

i just bought a new white controller. its coming on the 14th of february. scared of losing tech skill !!!

I think watching Fox dittos is a good matchup to study when learning how to grab. Fox is such a mobile character that if you can grab a Fox, you can grab pretty much any character.

 

[Chab]

I think watching Fox dittos is a good matchup to study when learning how to grab. Fox is such a mobile character that if you can grab a Fox, you can grab pretty much any character.

i feel like i got worse playing against a lvl 7 fox . i tried my friends brand new white controller and ended up loving it instantly.

mainly practicing this atm

DD SHFFL nair waveshine.

practicing grabs

wavelands

 

[Bones0]

i feel like i got worse playing against a lvl 7 fox . i tried my friends brand new white controller and ended up loving it instantly.

mainly practicing this atm

DD SHFFL nair waveshine.

practicing grabs

wavelands

I only play level 4s. They DI similar to humans, and they don't interrupt you constantly. Still, they should mostly be for theory crafting. You shouldn't play a CPU like you would a human as far as trying to beat their strategies and stuff.

 

[Chab]

I only play level 4s. They DI similar to humans, and they don't interrupt you constantly. Still, they should mostly be for theory crafting. You shouldn't play a CPU like you would a human as far as trying to beat their strategies and stuff.

thanks for the info ! and yeah i kinda just figured that much out. whatever still put in another hour and a half of just practicing tech skill.

what do u mean by theory crafting. expand on that please .

0n a side note im smashing tonight and tommorow !

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

At what percents is upthrow>uair guaranteed on puff? Also I have a lot more trouble connecting the uair on puff than I do on characters like marth. Any tips for making sure the uair gets there before puff can attack or jump away?

 

[Druggedfox]

If your issue is not getting there in time, the simple answer is that you're not moving as soon as possible after your throw.

For lots of throws in this game you can move earlier after a throw if the character you're throwing is lighter. An easy way to sort of see the earliest you can move after a throw vs puff is to try upthrowing a cpu and hold shield + up on the cstick to buffer a jump. This can give you an idea of the earliest you can move.

 

[AprilShaw]

Hey there, I'm looking for some critique on my Fox.

http://www.twitch.tv/team2a/b/501824985?t=2h35m15s

Not sure if this is the proper place, but I didn't see a thread anywhere else. I play here vs Laudandus's Sheik (dunno why he entered as MeNoHaxor), the guy who won the Norcal Arcadian recently. I lose games 1, 4, and 5, and 4 and 5 were both pretty bad lol.

Sheik's always given me trouble. I also have a lot of issues with technical consistency as Fox (been playing/practicing for many many years so I don't know if I can get over them unfortunately QQ) but please point out any mistakes you see, even just tech skill ones, anything is helpful. Thanks

 

[Bones0]

thanks for the info ! and yeah i kinda just figured that much out. whatever still put in another hour and a half of just practicing tech skill.

what do u mean by theory crafting. expand on that please .

0n a side note im smashing tonight and tommorow !

Theory crafting is just coming up with new strategies and ideas when you're on your own. CPUs will never replace human opponents, but if you can exercise your imagination to envision them doing the usual human strategies, you can come up with counter strategies just by sitting there and thinking about it. You shouldn't always have to test every possible option in order to figure out which one is best, otherwise when something new comes up in-game, you won't be able to adapt fast enough.

At what percents is upthrow>uair guaranteed on puff? Also I have a lot more trouble connecting the uair on puff than I do on characters like marth. Any tips for making sure the uair gets there before puff can attack or jump away?

Did a quick run through of uthrow uair percents. I'm sure these are off, but they should all be pretty close. "+" indicates it combos until at least 150%.

Dr. Mario: Never
Luigi: Never
Peach: Never
Captain Falcon: 64%+
Ganondorf: 65% - 143%
Falco: 30%+
Fox: 29%+
Ice Climbers: 40% - 65% (this one was annoying so I might be way off on the ending percent)
Samus: Never
Sheik: 20%+
Jigglypuff: 0% - 90%
Marth: 19%+

 

[Engo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC-GcS0qSwU

Thought I'd see if I could get some advice on this money match from last weekend. I think I played the best game 1.

 

[Apasher]

So I've been having this mental block in tournament where I would always think "I must not make a tech error, or else I will potentially lose a stock." This one single thought has been putting the most pressure to me in tournament sets, and I end up playing below my standards no matter how much I've learned/improved. I've been thinking about switching mains, but that would not be a good idea at this point, since my player skill hasn't fully developed and I'll just revert back to the beginning stages of improvement.

Any suggestions on what I should do to improve my mindset with Fox?

 

[Bones0]

So I've been having this mental block in tournament where I would always think "I must not make a tech error, or else I will potentially lose a stock." This one single thought has been putting the most pressure to me in tournament sets, and I end up playing below my standards no matter how much I've learned/improved. I've been thinking about switching mains, but that would not be a good idea at this point, since my player skill hasn't fully developed and I'll just revert back to the beginning stages of improvement.

Any suggestions on what I should do to improve my mindset with Fox?

That's not really a mental block, just reality. Work on your tech skill so you don't have to worry about it.

 

[Chab]

That's not really a mental block, just reality. Work on your tech skill so you don't have to worry about it.

i like u

 

[WaterlessFishie]

can i get some advice on this set? i don't feel like i'm playing particularly well, but i'm sure there's plenty of things to gain from this.

http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator/b/501777529 match at 7:56:40 (i'm blue fox)

 

[yoloswag420blazeit]

When I shine a spacey with fox, I'm often disappointed with my punish. I have been looking at options for making the most of my punishes when they miss the tech. At low percent, thunder's combo works pretty well but when they buffer a roll it's tricky to follow up. Also at higher percent thunder's doesn't really work so I've been trying waveshine-> d-tilt but I'm often too slow to hit the d-tilt. Or should I just keep it simple and waveshine -> DD grab? I'd like to hear what the gurus have to say on optimizing that punish game...

 

[Chab]

When I shine a spacey with fox, I'm often disappointed with my punish. I have been looking at options for making the most of my punishes when they miss the tech. At low percent, thunder's combo works pretty well but when they buffer a roll it's tricky to follow up. Also at higher percent thunder's doesn't really work so I've been trying waveshine-> d-tilt but I'm often too slow to hit the d-tilt. Or should I just keep it simple and waveshine -> DD grab? I'd like to hear what the gurus have to say on optimizing that punish game...

I find myself in the same position. even tho ive only been playing for around 35 days. I find myself trying to punish the most i can off of shines. im not THAT technically advanced but im learning step by step. what i dont understand is how you can do thunders combo but cant waveshine dtilt. goes to show muscle memory is huge in this game. i also want to know what the best option vs a spacey would be if they flub their tech on shine.

 

[Strain]

I've been practicing shield dropping a lot the last few days, and I'm starting to get it pretty consistent. What do you guys think the best thing to do out of a shield drop with fox is? Most of the time I try to do a bair or dair immediately, and I've also been trying to incorporate shine -> waveland back onto the platform.

 

[dRevan64]

I've been practicing shield dropping a lot the last few days, and I'm starting to get it pretty consistent. What do you guys think the best thing to do out of a shield drop with fox is? Most of the time I try to do a bair or dair immediately, and I've also been trying to incorporate shine -> waveland back onto the platform.

Shield drop shine is actually faster than shine OOS so it's actually quite good, I tend to bair though since it's easy and gets you out of wherever you are fast.

 

[RaynEX]

When I shine a spacey with fox, I'm often disappointed with my punish. I have been looking at options for making the most of my punishes when they miss the tech. At low percent, thunder's combo works pretty well but when they buffer a roll it's tricky to follow up. Also at higher percent thunder's doesn't really work so I've been trying waveshine-> d-tilt but I'm often too slow to hit the d-tilt. Or should I just keep it simple and waveshine -> DD grab? I'd like to hear what the gurus have to say on optimizing that punish game...

At low / mid percents:

Thunders into usmash is subpar because it isn't an optimal punish that rewards you with continued follow-ups 100% of the time. If your opponent d.i.s the usmash away you don't get a guaranteed anything, just a techchase. If you're close to an edge, their d.i. might even end your combo altogether. Fox is at his best against fastfallers when he lands a grab. Everything off uthrow is incredible, and landing a single one can be game changer. From 0-35% I'm a huge advocate of thunders > grab for these reasons. Further, Utilt / nair and other such follow-ups after uthrow give you more damage & combo opportunities than just a raw usmash.

If at any point your thunders takes your opponent to a stage's edge, double shine after the jab reset. Or do a low nair and double shine for more lift, better send, and more damage. The edge-guard off the doubleshine trajectory is usually very easy too.

At higher percents:

Jab reset is no longer reliable because of the possibility of buffer techrolls, so the optimal thing to do is react and DD grab. This entire situation can be sorted out with some patience and decent reactions. When I land drillshines / random shines at 50% - higher, these have been my staples over the years (in order of practicality):

- Drillshine > angle control stick for a shorter wavedash OOS > react to grounded options with JC grab.
(a shorter waveshine ensures you aren't too close and get tagged with get-up attacks. You can wait for it to whiff and JC grab it, but you're also close enough that you can react and catch backrolls or neutral get-ups)

- Drillshine > full length wavedash > dash & shield
(point blank shielding allows you to shield-grab get-up attacks and neutral get-up options, but also wavedash OOS to cover techs in either direction)

NEAR EDGE

- Drillshine > full length wavedash > down/angled Ftilt
(this is a true combo and just works wonders, old school Eggm tricksy)



Aside from these, use Melee's freeform system to adapt and create your own suitable alternatives. Techniques that cover multiple options are incredible, so keep the aforementioned in your backpocket, but feel free to deviate. The best smash players are the ones that think outside of the box.

 

[Bones0]

You can always SH uair after Thunder's. You can usually followup even if they do good DI away which is what most people do because of usmash.

Unrelated question: What technique to people use to SH with tap jump? I'm trying to incorporate tap jumping in certain situations so I can C-stick immediately, but I either get a FH or no jump registering at all...

Save me based @Lovage .

 

[Zoler]

Me in singles pools at BEAST 4:

vs Zettroxx (falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agpPlPvzRyE

vs Peki (fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU4ovF7pvvo

I choke a lot and put too much pressure on myself, I think I'm fixing it myself, been thinking. Wasn't even that disapointed about underperfoming tbh. Regardless I'd want some advice even though I know mostly what I did wrong, can never be bad to get advice from people with different viewpoints.

 

[Chab]

Quick question. How do you guys warm up before playing?

I feel like if i warm up doing nice shffl's (late aerials, fade away aerials, neutral shffl's) I see myself being a lot more smooth during my matches. Once I can waveland consistently i'll probably be warming up by doing both!

how do you guys do it.

 

[RaynEX]

You can always SH uair after Thunder's. You can usually followup even if they do good DI away which is what most people do because of usmash.

Unrelated question: What technique to people use to SH with tap jump? I'm trying to incorporate tap jumping in certain situations so I can C-stick immediately, but I either get a FH or no jump registering at all...

Save me based @Lovage .

Jab > uair is the original combo and lots of people still love to use it. If you uair post-thunders the opponent can d.i. either left or right, which you have to then quickly cognize in order to face them and usmash, grab or utilt. My point is, why take on completely unnecessary work for insignificant damage (second hit of uair) when you can grab for identical positioning, damage and follow-ups without their d.i. getting in the way? But yes, it does work in every thunders situation.

Just flick up and release the stick for tap jump. No special technique required, just practice. I will say though, after tap jumping for years I switched because it destroyed the stick sensitivity of past controllers. Techniques where I need to hit up on the stick (shine bair / shine turnaround JC) straight up didn't work. You don't get that kind of wear with X/Y buttons. What situations were you planning on using it in?

 

[Zoler]

I don't think Uair works in every situation in a "thunders combo" since at low percents you can just hold down and stay on the ground.