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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Vegard

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
1,220
Location
Oslo, Norway
http://www.twitch.tv/germansmash/b/478161536 02:12:00

Moneymatch vs Berlin's best player. Probably the best recorded footage I have, so I would really like it if someone would be willing to give me some pointers to my play :) Especially happy about the 2nd game vs Peach on FoD.

I play him grand finals/winner finals too, but the set was played 2am at a bar after a few beers, so I don't know if either of us were playing particularly good those sets lol
 

Kabutox

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
101
Location
Amsterdam
I started maining fox, and I need some help. Went to a tournament and lost to 2 good sheiks. Sloppy, greedy play by me, alot of technical errors, but I was wondering if anyone sees some really bad habits I haven't seen, aspects to improve on, general tips etc.

1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH3K7DWxtj4 (vs Amsah, tourney bo5, semi wrecked)
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptibIPu2P_w (vs Ice, tourney bo3, utter destruction)

Thanks peeps.
 

EWC

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
651
Location
norcal
Shine JC upsmash. It sounds silly, but uptilt doesn't have enough hitstun to be very useful at zero and none of your launchers come out fast enough.
 

BTmoney

a l l b e c o m e $
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
1,806
Location
Columbus OH / Chicago (Plainfield) IL
I find standing shine usmash's timing to be too strict

If I run cancel it's fine because the momentum carriers you forward with your opponent but it's hard to connect standing still. Haven't tried from that position though
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I find standing shine usmash's timing to be too strict

If I run cancel it's fine because the momentum carriers you forward with your opponent but it's hard to connect standing still. Haven't tried from that position though
You're probably shining the opponent too early.
 

Pengie

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
1,125
Location
Atlanta, GA
I don't know what the **** you guys are smoking, but upthrow -> shine JC upsmash doesn't actually work unless they purposely DI into it.
 

Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,287
Location
The Netherlands
shine usmash on falcon no DI 0% is good, if they don't DI the throw, they won't SDI the shine either. It's a free regrab if there's no platforms.


And you're wrong Pengie, it only doesn't work if they DI out of it. Which most people should.
 

Pengie

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
1,125
Location
Atlanta, GA
No in order for the shine to hit deep enough for the up smash to connect regardless of DI you have to wait and by that point Falcon can jump out. If you shine early enough for them to not be able to jump out the up smash misses unless they deliberately DI into it.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
hmm I don't understand what you mean. If I'm standing still and I go for a shine->usmash how can I be shining too early? I could understand usmashing too late but I don't see what you mean. Should I be deeper (:awesome:) inside them?
I thought we were talking specifically about uthrow into shine-usmash, in which case, yeah, you should wait longer so you are overlapping like a Rest. Idk for sure what effect DI vs. SDI has on the effectiveness of it, but I feel like they would HAVE to SDI the shine as Falcon in order to avoid the usmash because of how heavy he is.
 

All4G0dsGl0ry

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Messages
46
so i've gone through the step by step guide on training your fox. what should i practice next? i was thinking some wavelanding onto stage, but i figure there's more applicable stuff
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
If you're talking about ledge dashes, these are super applicable.
But depending on what you have already learned, there might obviously be other things. I haven't seen the "step by step guide on training your fox", but if it doesn't mention practicing up throw -> up airs on all characters at all relevant percents (or the top tiers, at the very least), you should do that (different weights affect how many frames the throwing animation takes, so it's really important to practice acting as fast as possible, because the timing window is rather tight).
I'll assume it does mention the basic things like wavedashes and SHFFLs, right? ;)
Well and movement onstage... being able to precisely go wherever you want to go (and whenever, in whatever way you want to get there) is extremely important.
 

All4G0dsGl0ry

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Messages
46
it's the guide by omni. to practice movement on stage, do you do exactly just that? do i practice like wavelanding and stuff as that practice?
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
Yeah, just running around is a good exercise, imho.

Other than that, I suggest plugging in a second controller and use the uncontrolled character as a reference for your attacking ranges. E.g. just how far does your SHFFL nair carry you? Can you land just behind him on command / can you just hit him with the very edge of the hitbox? Do you really not move one bit further than where you really want to place your JC upsmash?
(keep in mind that in real matches the opponent will be moving, but hitting a stationary target imho is a decent enough training until you're ready to account for their movement as well)
 

FrootLoop

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Messages
1,551
Location
Madison, WI
Which is optimal punish after up throwing sheik at really low %s on FD?

Versus no DI on the throw I've been trying uptilt or short hop upair and I'm not sure if they actually work and which has better follows. I think upsmash doesn't work because I can't get the good hitbox where it needs to be before she can hit me out of it.

Versus DI to the sides I don't really know what to do at all. Is dash short hop nair real or do I just have to stalk the landing/jump?
 

Return

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Messages
100
Location
Orange, CA (714)
this isn't really fox specific, but i have a question on shield di.
i know the pros tend to tilt their shield towards their opponent to better prevent shield poke (say vs falco)
but then how do you shield ASDI falco's Dair away if you're tilting the shields towards him? if you can't do both, which would be the better choice?
 

4 Aces

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
892

Disclaimer: Not for educational purposes
I love watching Dark. lol will have to visit this later tonight.

Which is optimal punish after up throwing sheik at really low %s on FD?

Versus no DI on the throw I've been trying uptilt or short hop upair and I'm not sure if they actually work and which has better follows. I think upsmash doesn't work because I can't get the good hitbox where it needs to be before she can hit me out of it.

Versus DI to the sides I don't really know what to do at all. Is dash short hop nair real or do I just have to stalk the landing/jump?
Idk. Uptilt or full jump rising bair? Not sure.

I think dash short hop aerial works, but don't quote me on it.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
this isn't really fox specific, but i have a question on shield di.
i know the pros tend to tilt their shield towards their opponent to better prevent shield poke (say vs falco)
but then how do you shield ASDI falco's Dair away if you're tilting the shields towards him? if you can't do both, which would be the better choice?
You can't tilt your shield during shield stun (afaik), so if you wanted to protect yourself from Peach's dsmash, you would probably want to tilt your shield down and towards her, then once you start getting hit, smash the stick away. You'll almost always get the shield SDI vs. multi-hit moves like Peach's dsmash or Fox's dair, but you have to be careful about angling your shield towards the opponent for too long because if you don't change the stick's angle before hitlag ends, you will buffer a shield ASDI input and go towards them.

To answer your question more broadly, I would focus on just using shield DI or shield angling, not both. A lot of shield angling isn't even about protecting yourself, it's about shielding the attack slightly earlier than you normally would. This can put the opponent into hitlag sooner than they expect and cause them to input their FF during hitlag (usually resulting in a missed FF and L-cancel). Even if it doesn't throw them off, the amount of shield stun you will have by the time the opponent reaches the ground may be reduced. This is usually dependent on when they aerial and what angle they come at. If they time their aerial so that it would hit your shield regardless of you angling or not, obviously you won't gain any advantage. If a is Fox doing a FH nair so that the hitbox is out when he is in the space above your head, then you can see how angling your shield up to get hit a couple frames earlier could help you get a shield grab before his shine.

When you are angling to protect yourself, make sure you are actually protecting yourself and not giving up the chance to shield SDI away. I think Fox's shield is pretty good on his front, but his tail can get you shield poked a lot if you're on platforms or facing away from the opponent, and his ears can get poked if your shield shrinks a little. Falco's dair, specifically, is kind of hard to shield poke with. His jump height isn't conducive to shield poking in SHFFLs because he stays pretty low, and the hitbox is too round/jointed to really poke beneath shields. By contrast, you can watch Kage's Ganon get shield pokes all the time because he can do super low stomps so that only the very top of the dair is above the stage. Marth also gets a lot of pokes with dtilt going under shields because it's a very thin hitbox, or he can poke with the long, flat ending hitbox of each of his aerials.

Light shielding can also be a useful alternative to shield angling. It usually ends up acting as a more reliable shield angle+shield DI away combo. The extra shield area prevents pokes while the reduced traction causes you to slide further from the attack (it can often get you out of aerial-shines if they weren't super deep, especially vs. Falco who has almost no range on the front of his shine). The downsides to light shielding are that you take more shield damage (you can easily get your shield broken if you were already at sub-50% shield health) and you spend a longer length of time in shield stun. If you shield SDI an attack away, you can usually counterattack really quickly, but if you light shield you will tend to reset to neutral instead depending on how unsafe their attack on your shield was.
 

Stijn

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 7, 2012
Messages
61
Location
the Netherlands
Kinda random question here.
Ive seen M2K's Fox SHDLcamp HBox, and sometimes he runs up to him and JC Up-Smashes immediately. I dont really see why this works, what is he covering with this? Because somehow he rarely misses them.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Kinda random question here.
Ive seen M2K's Fox SHDLcamp HBox, and sometimes he runs up to him and JC Up-Smashes immediately. I dont really see why this works, what is he covering with this? Because somehow he rarely misses them.
He's probably picking up on a pattern of when Hbox lands, and I'm sure he only inputs the usmash once he can visually confirm Hbox is within range.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
I think m2k was good at half the Puff MU before TBH3. Like if you see what he's actually doing in the games he played before BH3, he was really good at u-smashing Hbox out of the air but HBox learned to avoid it and punish it super hard. But then m2k didn't change until now... the big one is that he grabs more vs grounded Puff after landing a few u-smashes earlier in the match because it punishes the shielding his u-smashes force HBox to do. I say "force" because Puff will have to use block to counter the threatening u-smash in a lot of spots because her ground options are limited.

The other thing he's doing differently is that he's doing aerials to get under Puff more often and to zip into her air space when she's not aligned for bair. So he's focusing more on positioning. By moving this way and attacking this way, he limits how much HBox is on the ground safely (making him harder to grab) and it forces HBox to fall to the ground or occupy an awkward position between FJ aerial and SH aerial. Which is not only hard as hell because of how Puff's jumps work / gravity but did I mention M2K is like the best person at u-smashing someone out of the blue?

He's also not u-smashing at 100%+. He's making HBox shield and then just poking at him with bairs in a way that makes him damn near impervious to shield grab and if he sees HBox do the only thing that would allow him to counterattack in that position, he has a good chunk of time to catch it and prepare to DI and avoid the u-throw rest.

HBox has been more aggressive lately and it seems to be working better vs PP and Mango than his old stuff (vs PP more though) but I feel he hasn't figured how he needs to structure his more aggressive positioning style to counter Jason's patience and willingness to wait until his character is in a good position before considering fighting (and Fox has many good positions vs Puff). But yeah... I don't think HBox has a good answer to what Jason is doing right now. Granted he has like 2-3 SDs every set vs m2k now but even then I'm not sure they made much of a difference. Like... in one match of WFs at ROM6, if Jason didn't run into the pounds HBox was using to intercept Jason's motions around the platform movement hubs... then I would not have been surprised if m2k 4-stocked Hbox that game. The aggressive shift seems okay on smaller levels but I think it needs revision & tweaking on the bigger levels.
 

Exasm

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
12
When I upthrow->upair Marth, I always seem to get countered or aerialed. Am I just too slow or can Marth always do this?

Also, anyhow upthrow->upair advice in general? I now opt for bair most of the time, because I always seem to whiff upairs.
 

BlindSpot

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
141
Location
Houston, TX
Hi. I've been a Sheik main for awhile now, but I've been wanting to pickup Fox, just because I love his pressure game. So my question is... For an aggressive fox, what are some things I should be practicing?
(Combos/Technical moves)
 

fennel69

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
45
Location
Lyon, France
Hi. I've been a Sheik main for awhile now, but I've been wanting to pickup Fox, just because I love his pressure game. So my question is... For an aggressive fox, what are some things I should be practicing?
(Combos/Technical moves)
Perfect SHUFFLE shine pressure, waveshines, multishines, shine cancel Usmash, shine cancel grab, ...
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
aside from any matchup specifics, what are foxs "bread and butter"

does foxs bair have the same range as falcos?
Just look at the .gifs in the hitbox threads.

When I upthrow->upair Marth, I always seem to get countered or aerialed. Am I just too slow or can Marth always do this?

Also, anyhow upthrow->upair advice in general? I now opt for bair most of the time, because I always seem to whiff upairs.
Practice in Training Mode and use the consecutive hits counter to make sure you are comboing. Start at 100% and keep decreasing it until you are unable to combo. Then keep trying to optimize your form and you'll surprise yourself at how low you can still combo it at.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
When I upthrow->upair Marth, I always seem to get countered or aerialed. Am I just too slow or can Marth always do this?

Also, anyhow upthrow->upair advice in general? I now opt for bair most of the time, because I always seem to whiff upairs.
You're too slow. Fox's u-throw speed is based on character weight; the lighter the character, the faster the throw completes.
 
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