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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,287
Location
vegas baby
^ I dunno about that.

I have to adapt and play completely off of theory vs so many matchups solely because we have no (decent) players that play that character. Such as:

- falco
- falcon
- peach
- ICs
- ganon
- almost all characters below them on the tier list

But I don't get ***** by players like linguini, hax, HMW, HugS, doll, xif, etc. Sometimes you just need to use your brain
those are all pretty popular characters that you could easily theory craft by either discussing those matchups [which people do here, unlike YL] or watch matches to get a good basis[which there is zero YL matches to work with on youtube]

i know you said all char.'s below them on the tier list, but the one's you pointed out are absurdly popular. like you could atleast play someone's alts of those characters you listed, but no1 even alts yL.
 

Doser

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 23, 2010
Messages
572
Location
Lincoln Nebraska
Hbox is in a weird place right now.
He's got school crap going on so he can't devote himself to smash like PP has over the last few tournaments. On top of that, he's got a huge prejudice against him as a gay puff where, in reality, his puff is much more aggressive than not. People seem to want to see him lose and accuse him of slipping or riding on his past achievements, which frustrates him into playing more aggressively than he needs to. Add food poisoning and an unknown matchup with a rival that's apparently been practicing for months specifically to counter you and it's no wonder that he lost so spectacularly. It's only more frustrating to him because Armada was playing exactly like people accuse him of playing. It's just not a happy spot to be in.\

In other news, is it just me, or does YL lose a stock every time I land a shine?
I'll go get you a box of tissues.
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744

I had a question about the falcon MU. What are the best ways to beat his nair. Sometimes I dash dance and run right into it, and I often I get beat by falcons nair using my own.
Depends on how he's doing it

Advancing Nair gets beat by Bair or CC -> stuff

Pivot Nair / Nair in place gets beat by walking forward a bit and Upsmashing if you anticipate it or Nairing right after he starts his to hit between the bitboxes

Pivot retreating Nair is like practically unpunishable but it also doesn't really get anything for Falcon unless you're running at him

Bair is pretty cheap but you have to watch for getting grabbed if you're not doing it full retreat

Falcon vs Fox neutral game is hard -_- I get depressed just thinking about it
L> Fox sparring partner
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
those are all pretty popular characters that you could easily theory craft by either discussing those matchups [which people do here, unlike YL] or watch matches to get a good basis[which there is zero YL matches to work with on youtube]

i know you said all char.'s below them on the tier list, but the one's you pointed out are absurdly popular. like you could atleast play someone's alts of those characters you listed, but no1 even alts yL.
Alts suck.

Ganon isn't popular.

ICs aren't popular (there are like 4-5 good ones and IC alts are HORRIBLE).

Good Samoose are ridiculously rare.

On that note, Young Link is a very linear character with heavy limitations. All you really have to ask yourself vs a character like Young Link is: what kind of movement, zoning, and strategies would be effective vs a character that takes a second to pull and throw his primary weapons? The stipulation here is that certain weapons go through Jiggs' moves.

Thinking about their limitations will let you make good strategies.
 

tera twin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 26, 2010
Messages
280
How do people learn fox? I've played with fox and I can do basic stuff with him. However, we all know Fox is one hell of a technical character that requires quick hands. How do fox players learn Fox's wavedash timing to get a perfect wavedash? I can't wavedash perfectly at all. I've tried practicing wavedashing consistently and while I do notice I get a tiny bit better I notice that in my concentration of trying to learn that timing, my wavedashing muscle memory for other characters gets wonky. I've also (even though I don't even have wavedashing down) tried to do a wavedash out of a shine and it's even more harder for me.

Also, my knowledge of Fox's shine in a match is kind of bad. I usually just shine and then jump lol. That's the basic shine cancelling right? Is normal shine cancelling often used or is double shine cancelling used more often? How the heck do people double shine cancel? I know it's shine - > jump - > shine immediately after jumping but I'm not quick enough. Are there any tips on how to make it easier to do it?

I think that's it for now :)
 

Palpi

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
5,714
Location
Yardley, Pennsylvania
How do people learn fox? I've played with fox and I can do basic stuff with him. However, we all know Fox is one hell of a technical character that requires quick hands. How do fox players learn Fox's wavedash timing to get a perfect wavedash? I can't wavedash perfectly at all. I've tried practicing wavedashing consistently and while I do notice I get a tiny bit better I notice that in my concentration of trying to learn that timing, my wavedashing muscle memory for other characters gets wonky. I've also (even though I don't even have wavedashing down) tried to do a wavedash out of a shine and it's even more harder for me.

Also, my knowledge of Fox's shine in a match is kind of bad. I usually just shine and then jump lol. That's the basic shine cancelling right? Is normal shine cancelling often used or is double shine cancelling used more often? How the heck do people double shine cancel? I know it's shine - > jump - > shine immediately after jumping but I'm not quick enough. Are there any tips on how to make it easier to do it?

I think that's it for now :)
Practice! Obviously you are fairly new to the scene, but keep practicing wavedashing, then start practicing down + B before your wavedashing, then press down b before and after your wave dashes and keep building off that. (this would be practicing to waveshine)

Once you get that down, you can practice nair + shine shield pressure, which would just be shine -> short hop fast falled NAIR and repeat :)
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
How long do you think we all practiced in our rooms with the lights off to be able to wavedash consistently haha
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
Lucky you
When I started it took me like ... months before I could wavedash vs people ~_~
I could Nair Shine before I could waveshine actually ...
 

Evoke

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
122
Location
New York
I could nairshine and waveshine with two weeks lol but NEVER wavedash vs people.
Like ever.
I'd have to think about wavedash grabbing or stuff. Back then, I rolled or dashdanced everywhere. Pft, wavedashing? NAW, I GOT MY ROLLING.

I still kind of do roll a bit too much. Whatever. My shield pressure is bad (I mean, I almost broke someone's shield for real, but I screwed up and air dodged my l cancel instead of nair, lost me the set).
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
2,665
Location
Atlanta
I've tried practicing wavedashing consistently and while I do notice I get a tiny bit better I notice that in my concentration of trying to learn that timing, my wavedashing muscle memory for other characters gets wonky.
I think that might be your biggest issue; when you are first learning the game, stick to learning the advanced technical skill for one particular character if it depends on different timings. Don't try to wavedash with people that aren't your main for now; practice your main so much that the muscle memory is the most natural thing to you. When you pick up your main and think "wavedash", your fingers should be programmed to the perfect timing. Its with the other characters that you can take a bit of time to adjust to the timing.
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
yeah. just learn it with one person.

and... i have sort of an unusual perspective. i got into competitive melee some two years before i owned a copy of the game or a cube, so I could never practice alone, so I was never the sort who could wavedash fine in training mode but not in game. I think this got me a lot of practical technical skill very quickly and stopped me from learning new tricks that I could then apply. Like, I could never learn shine -> waveland combos until i spent a week or two practicing them in training mode, because you just die a lot when you try them in match at first. So I'd recommend just forcing yourself to use them against people a lot until they feel natural and then practicing trickier things alone. Just my two cents.

Also, once you're very good with things like wavedashing, shffling, etc, you'll find that it becomes easier and easier to switch between characters. At first I couldn't switch frmo fox to falco without a ton of trouble adjusting to the different timings, but now I can pick up a character like pikachu that I almost never play and have no trouble at all. I'm not sure how or when that happens but it will.

Actually, I think the best way to learn new tech skills is to practice them enough to get the idea of it alone and then play someone much worse than you for a while so you can easily set up opportunities to try them out in match a lot. My tech skill skyrocketed when I was teaching my roommate to play a couple years ago. Those people don't really exist when you're just starting though, unfortunately.
 
G

genkaku

Guest
I always practice whatever I'm working on at the moment, faster waveshines or shine nairs or whatever while I'm waiting for the opponent to respawn. The tension is still high enough that it's almost the same thing psychologically as in-match.
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
Can anyone give any info on the matchup against Marth?
Don't attack stupidly into his dashdance
Don't attack stupidly into his crouch cancel
Uncrouchcanceled Nair -> Nair or Grab or Utilt or Reverse Utilt or Shine offstage
Laser if he refuses to come after you at all
Learn how to Up-b sweetspot past the onstage counter edgeguard on stages with ledges you can hug (basically everything but BF and PS and Congo and Brinstar [but who cares about the last two])
Learn how to shorten your illusion (applies to every matchup ever)
Overshot Nair / Running Shine > Dashdance > regular Nair > Grab > Overshot Nair / Running shine (way oversimplified)
Lightshield edgehog >>> Marth's recovery from a distance
Smart invincibility refresh -> shinespike (usually with good Firefox regrabs)
Punish when Marth is retracting his arm after swinging his sword, running in before then isn't usually the best of ideas
Ledgedash ***** if you do it right (applies to all matchups)
You should probably ban FD if they're competent at chaingrabbing

Someone yell at me if I wrote something dumb
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
Location
pikachu
I wish I had more time/money to travel and play at these large national tournaments. dam :/


I'ma find a sponsor.
 

Vincent46

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
54
May be a stupid question but do you guys use your tournament controller for practicing at home? I've recently bought a new one and I'm afraid the stick may deteriorate or something lol
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
May be a stupid question but do you guys use your tournament controller for practicing at home? I've recently bought a new one and I'm afraid the stick may deteriorate or something lol
yeah, what t.webb said. you SHOULD play with your tournament controller as much as possible in most circumstances cuz it's better to have a more broken-in control stick
 

PK Webb

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
2,753
Location
the lab
Drillshine a lot.....avoid missile and when u up throw uair if u see that they r nairing out of it just wait a little b4 u follow up
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
those are all pretty popular characters that you could easily theory craft by either discussing those matchups [which people do here, unlike YL] or watch matches to get a good basis[which there is zero YL matches to work with on youtube]

i know you said all char.'s below them on the tier list, but the one's you pointed out are absurdly popular. like you could atleast play someone's alts of those characters you listed, but no1 even alts yL.
yeah, but no one here plays them and I'm also self-taught about pretty much everything in this game.
 

Evoke

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
122
Location
New York
Why is a ledgedash good against Marth? I'm assuming right now it's to be in a non-tipper spot but I have no clue.

Yeah, whatever. I need help on my Fox v Falco matchup. I can't do well against pillaring whatsoever and recovering against them from the bottom of the stage.
 

Ocean

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
3,810
Slippi.gg
OCEAN#0
because most often ledgehopping is just going to make you end up eating a forward smash, rolling is too slow unless they are in a bad position, and getting up from the edge is easy to react to.
the invincibility helps a lot to break that barrier that he creates when you're on the edge, especially without platforms.
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
Why is a ledgedash good against Marth? I'm assuming right now it's to be in a non-tipper spot but I have no clue.
it's good against anyone because if you do it right, you're fully invincible

it's especially good against marth because if marth grabs you or hits you, you sometimes die immediately.
 

ArcNatural

Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
2,964
Location
Boston, MA
Why is a ledgedash good against Marth? I'm assuming right now it's to be in a non-tipper spot but I have no clue.

Yeah, whatever. I need help on my Fox v Falco matchup. I can't do well against pillaring whatsoever and recovering against them from the bottom of the stage.
Learning to angle shield up and getting key shield grabs or safe shine OOS is something useful to add if you don't do them. And against better Falco's you typically need to remember to do everything after they shine (so if you want to wavedash OOS you need to wait for the shine).

Bottom of the stage recoveries, learn to ride edges and wall tech is all I can say. You can often walltech > phantasm if they are trying to dair from the stage. Fox and Falco can edge guard each other well.

Edit: Unknown since you Canadian fellas are great at practice mode stuff. Fox vs Falcon in training mode with Falcon on evade. What's the lowest % that upthrow with full DI away -> shffl nair will connect for a combo? I'm really bad at this so I'm just curious how low you can go. I think my lowest (although I didn't try lower) was 49%.
 

Navn

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 2, 2008
Messages
175
Location
Denmark
Are there a few frames where you cant jump when you're turning around during shine? I keep messing up backwards wavedash out of shine.

Any tips for doing this easier?
 

Doval

Smash Lord
Joined
May 16, 2005
Messages
1,028
Location
Puerto Rico
What Erke said. Either turn around, wait a bit and do it, or make absolutely sure you don't hit back until after you've pushed the jump button. The former is less technically demanding, the latter is faster.

I would recommend the latter anyways because if you want to wavedash out of shield you have to make sure you jump before hitting any direction to avoid rolling, so you learn to do two things at once.
 

TheGoat

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
584
So I've mained falco quite a while for now (6 months or so) and he is fun. I've tried fox lately for a few reasons
-he's fun
-it would be useful having a good fox in case peach shows up
-falcos wavedash pisses me off to no end

I already miss falcos amazing down smash for edgeguarding, but fox is obviously incredibly agile-any tips about a semi-transition would be much appreciated.
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
err, for edgeguarding purposes, fox's and falco's dsmashes are practically identical... i don't see what there is to "miss" >_> just sayin
 
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