Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Cyrain]

Jman, you unretire yet? I need a coach. :D

Just get me or Chillin to coach you.

 

[PGH Carroll]

hey, at what % can we shine out of marth's cg?

It may or may not work at 11% or maybe its 21% or 23%
I forget
but i dont think it "actually" works..

 

[Cyrain]

I was watching Melee on stream during Zenith 2012? i think it was. A fox player was getting ready to play and the commentators were talking about how technical he was. During the match, he did something and everyone starting losing it and cheering for him. They said he did a "triple shine," and that it was incredibly difficult to even do a "double shine." So it was a big deal. What were they talking about? I play brawl but I am very curious about this.

They were most likely talking about jump canceled shines. I assume you already know this, but Fox's down + B (reflector) is referred to as a shine. Since you can jump out of a shine and jumping temporarily returns your character to a standing animation before he leaves the ground, fox can shine, jump cancel it and immediately shine again without ever actually leaving the ground. Doing 3 in a row is reasonably difficult because the window of opportunity for shining again before your character jumps off of the ground is really small. I'm dumb and don't know anything about frames though so I'm sure someone can tell you exactly how many frames you have to shine again after pressing the jump button without leaving the ground.

 

[unknown522]

I always heard you can shine out of marth's CG after 20%, unless he does a pivot grab

 

[Bones0]

hey, at what % can we shine out of marth's cg?

^ I don't think anyone actually knows exactly just based on anecdotal evidence, since it depends on both your execution and the Marth's execution. It'd be cool if somebody figured it out with AR

If the Marth is pivot grabbing properly, you won't be able to shine out. Idk about Fox for sure, but I think Marth has to start pivot grabbing at 16%. I know for sure Marth has to start pivot grabbing Falco at 25%. I don't think the % should particularly matter to the player being chain grabbed (though it's nice to know). You really just have to look at it as two main options (assuming you're on FD; platforms give you many more options and mixups):

1. DI on top (which entails landing both slightly behind as well as slightly in front of Marth). It is hard for them to tell which side you are going to land on, and at higher %s they must pivot grab. DIing above them can also make landing utilts troublesome, and most importantly, DI above is the only way to avoid an easy tipper (this was a mistake PP made in M2K's JV4; he full DIed away when he was at too low a % to escape the range).

2. Full DI. It is useful at the %s where full DI puts you just out of range of their standing grab because it forces them to dash and then JC grab almost immediately after dashing. It also works to mess up people who assume you will DI on top of them and try to pivot grab. So try stuff like DIing straight up 2-3 times, and then full DI to catch them (unnecessarily) reading a pivot grab is really helpful. You also need to use full DI at higher %s to avoid uthrow fsmash. I know I said the same about DIing on top, but that's because both can hit depending on the %s. Marth's uthrow fsmash true combos on Falco up to 85% (I think Fox's is 80-something; you can easily check in Training Mode). If you are at 80%+, obviously he can get the fsmash out in time to hit you if you DI on top, so you have to DI away. Just thinking of my in-game experience, it doesn't feel like there's any % where uthrow fsmash is guaranteed regardless of your DI, but I could be wrong.

I was watching Melee on stream during Zenith 2012? i think it was. A fox player was getting ready to play and the commentators were talking about how technical he was. During the match, he did something and everyone starting losing it and cheering for him. They said he did a "triple shine," and that it was incredibly difficult to even do a "double shine." So it was a big deal. What were they talking about? I play brawl but I am very curious about this.

Multishines are done by shining again on the first frame after you leave the ground. So Fox has 3 frames after you press Y where he is crouched down getting ready to jump. If you shine on the 4th frame when he's airborne, the shine actually makes you go downwards a little bit so you stick to the ground. This process can be repeated infinitely by jump cancelling the shine and continuing to shine as soon as you leave the ground. With just a little bit of practice you can learn to do it on KJ64's rotating platforms. When the platforms are rising, it makes it easier to land with the shine because it moves up into your body. It's basically just holding down and pressing B, Y, B, Y with perfect timing. :D

Just get me or Chillin to coach you.

I'd be honored.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

2-0'd Matt R's Falco with Fox yesterday. All that Teczero practice payed off :D

 

[FrootLoop]

sveet you gotta convert position to hits better vs chris. you cornered him a lot but he just hit you with his hail mary nairs and get out of jail falcon kicks and stuff

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah I played like garbage vs chris. I hadn't played in 2 hours or w/e while he had just got done playing jeff.

 

[rokimomi]

So vs alot of the more patient players at a tourney yesterday, I got into these "dashdance wars" with no real purpose or positives in the outcome (mostly against foxes now that I think of it), or I would lose ground at the end of it.

In the context of fox dittos, besides maintaining whatever space you already have and trying to push for a bit more, is there much of anything else you can do in the big picture? It seems like pushing too much is pretty much you just falling into their dash dancing so I ended up just having to take wild guesses and reads sometimes as to what they would do if I just naired them in their dash dancing. Sometimes it worked, other times it didnt.

 

[ninjapenguin]

Thank you Cyrain and Bones, very informative

 

[Apasher]

Critique?

http://www.twitch.tv/umsmash/b/330042112

http://www.twitch.tv/umsmash/b/330042129

 

[omgwtfToph]

How should Fox DI Falco's uthrow?

 

[Wenbobular]

Can't read =_= read Dthrow

No DI on the throw -> DI the lasers like crazy

Or behind him usually works but you should make sure you get hit by a laser because if you don't he gets a free Bair
Also at low % you can often shine out if they're slow but I don't know how reliable that is

 

[unknown522]

DI in either direction.

It's that simple

 

[omgwtfToph]

It is NOT that simple lol, plain DI'ing forward often gets me (and a lot of other Foxes, it seems) combo'd

 

[Wenbobular]

Then DI behind haha
You can't really get super shine comboed if you DI behind him

@apasher vs Marth
You tech skill is alright but uhh
You run into everything and rarely dashdance grab him

Also you specifically get hit a ton by Marth running off a platform with a Fair ... like ... 1.5 times per stock game 1 <_<
When he's on a platform he can't possibly hit you if you've just outside Fair range but you keep dashdancing right where runoff Fair would hit you ... and I can't understand why

There are also problems with how you recover but learning how long Marth's sword/arm is should probably be the first thing you should look to improve on
Just watch the match again and try to figure out why you're getting hit / doing aerials
Then just try to eliminate all the aerials you see that do nothing (half the time you're attacking air)
And try to reproduce those times where you actually bait something (i.e. you manage to dashdance grab his runoff Fair ... like once or twice in the entire set, but you could be getting more)

 

[unknown522]

K, SDI then

No guarantee for combo escape.

If you want something like that, you're using the wrong character

 

[Zoler]

It's a lot easier to SDI falcos uthrow in NTSC than in PAL, because of foxs weight. :/

In NTSC just tap the stick behind and you will hit the SDI on the lasers, in PAL you need to be very precise with the timing.

I also think falco can follow up whatever you do, but if you SDI behind him it might just be a bair.

 

[Divinokage]

It is NOT that simple lol, plain DI'ing forward often gets me (and a lot of other Foxes, it seems) combo'd

When I was playing Bam yesterday with Falco and I uthrow him, only one hit of the laser hit sometimes even none if he DIs correctly but ya DIing behind is good but also purposely getting hit the lasers and SDIng behind works too, I could not combo when he did that.

 

[rokimomi]

I thought sdi didnt apply to lasers in the throw at all for either upthrow

 

[Divinokage]

I thought sdi didnt apply to lasers in the throw at all for either upthrow

It does for Falco, it has actual hitboxes that stun you, so that means you can SDI.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, Fox's laser's don't stun and thus cannot be SDIed, which is probably what you were thinking of.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I just hold up and slightly behind, the same DI for his fthrow. This causes you to ASDI the lasers up and while it looks like you will go forward after the lasers, you will actually go up and behind. This is effective starting in mid percents, but gets you comboed in low percents.

 

[PB&J]

dont know if you guys seen this yet,but it is sick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MaGdS8QHvc&feature=related

 

[iamthemicrowave]

who the f is rael and why are they mming in euros, i thought javi was from mexico

 

[Bones0]

Rael is a good Mexican Falco (OBVIOUSLY). I think the 100 Euro MM is a troll, but I don't really have any convincing evidence of that.

 

[chillindude829]

javi does some smart **** lol

ima steal that hanging under a platform w/ shine to see how they tech then techchase thing, dunno if ive ever seen that

 

[PB&J]

i was thinking the same thing chillin. I love when javi waits for stuff like that.

 

[unknown522]

Man. Falco is so gay

 

[omgwtfToph]

ima steal that hanging under a platform w/ shine to see how they tech then techchase thing, dunno if ive ever seen that

dude, you know who did that a while back? joe replicate, no lie

but umm yeah javi is insane. he really turned up da heat roughly halfway through that set. orgia mode baby :aigis:

 

[Bones0]

Hey Ace, do not believe the money part, that game was for less than $ 5.
I do not understand why put 100 Euros, Wtf?
I hope you understand me well.....

I knew it. lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I found an amazing trick for fox dittos:

Spoiler

 

[Wake]

I knew it. lol

lol why would he put that? haha

 

[S1 The God]

I found an amazing trick for fox dittos:

Spoiler

this vary well may be the cutest thing i've ever seen

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Better caption

Starfox: Where it all began

 

[genkaku]

fox only no items trampoline

 

[Bones0]

Give him a break guys. He's still learning how to WD.

 

[PGH Carroll]

I see that as two foxes playing and then the ones like.

"yo check it, short hop. Everytime."

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This is my set vs teczero, can anyone critique me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zWGi_1bkQA

 

[EWC]

You usually dash dance too far away to put on any actual pressure, and when you go in your attacks seem sorta telegraphed. I don't know if that's just nerves from fighting a good player, but you should work on dash dancing more reactively and with tighter spacing.