Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Fortress | Sveet]

Theres no magic secret to these things. Just press the proper buttons at the proper time and it works. You obviously already know the correct inputs, so just learn the timings. It will take practice.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Theres no magic secret to these things. Just press the proper buttons at the proper time and it works. You obviously already know the correct inputs, so just learn the timings. It will take practice.

True, but you left me hanging with the first question, does shine-usmash have to be running or does it depend on DI so the usmash can actually connect. Thanks for advice!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i'll let the video speak for itself

 

[Sixth-Sense]

i'll let the video speak for itself

My bad, forgot about that example, thanks anyways

 

[Jim Morrison]

It depends on how you do it. I find it easy to just Shine and press both up on control and C-stick. Standing is easier than running for me as well. Still can't do it on a shield but then again, why would I when I can shinegrab lol.
As was said, just practice everything. I've SHDL'd for 5 hours in total just to practice it and get it down consistently. You just gotta go fast.

 

[Winston]

The only situation I know of where you can land shine-usmash consistently that isn't out of a dash is out of uthrow on falcon on low %, no DI.

 

[Warhawk]

I thought you could do it on more characters and just had to hit with the tip of Fox's shine when doing it from a stand. Very well could be wrong though.

 

[Bones0]

You don't want to hit with the tip of your shine. You want it to be as deep as possible. I'm pretty sure you can do it to any fastfaller as long as they DI in.

 

[Warhawk]

Why not the top of the shine?

 

[Bones0]

Because they will be further from your usmash...

 

[Warhawk]

Didn't realize it had enough of an effect to prevent it from working but then again I've never tried shine->upsmash without running first.

 

[Winston]

I'm pretty sure you can do it to any fastfaller as long as they DI in.

yea, its just that it actually works on Falcon from uthrow if they don't DI. For spacies they both go behind you from shine when you uthrow.

I guess you could set it up on spacies from low % utilt but I think they have to really DI in for that to work, whereas for Falcon they just have to not DI away.

 

[mers]

yea, its just that it actually works on Falcon from uthrow if they don't DI. For spacies they both go behind you from shine when you uthrow.

I guess you could set it up on spacies from low % utilt but I think they have to really DI in for that to work, whereas for Falcon they just have to not DI away.

You can just turn around before the shine lol. I've done it that way (though even cooler is shining, WDing in place, then running over and shine-usmashing their missed tech).

 

[Winston]

yea true >_> idk why I didnt think about that

For the second thing, I dont think you can get there in time if you wd in place - I thought you had to wd towards them?

 

[EWC]

Shine upsmash is a lot more robust than you might guess. If you do it fast, you can hit it on airbourne oppenents from most angles (not sure how Di affects it though). You can also hit it on a grounded opponent with nothing more than slow walking momentum.

 

[Blubby]

i'll let the video speak for itself

thats not a good example, the b-throw momentum still applies and thats why it worked here, its a completely different thing if ure playing 1on1

 

[Silent Wolf]

ooooooooo blubby with the call out

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

thats not a good example, the b-throw momentum still applies and thats why it worked here, its a completely different thing if ure playing 1on1

not to just say you're 100% wrong, but you're 100% wrong. This isn't real life physics where one must do vector math in order to find final trajectory. Except for the case of the doubleshine effect (which isn't the case here), when a move hits it completely overrides the previous knockbacks that are acting on the character.

 

[Winston]

Sveet, I don't know exactly how the physics work, but that's not accurate.

Haven't you seen the situation where if you do a slow shine dair with Falco (like the dair hits after they start rising) they go downwards really slowly? It's really easy to do if you want to test it out, just get a fastfaller to mid percent, hit him into the air (preferably over the edge), and shine, dj, and then dair (don't dair immediately).

Momentum existing is also clear sometimes in doubles.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

that is the case of the doubleshine effect. When two moves hit within 6 or 10 frames (forget the exact number) the knockbacks combine.

 

[Winston]

Oh ok, I didn't know that's what you were referring to. Cool.

 

[FrootLoop]

but if you do the dair quick after the shine then dair overrides the shine momentum yes?

 

[omgwtfToph]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUvJ6XphTA4#t=3m14s

I wish I could do stuff like this reliably.

 

[mers]

but if you do the dair quick after the shine then dair overrides the shine momentum yes?

No. The opposite.

Knockback is always entirely from the last move that hit you

EXCEPT

If two moves have hit you in the last 10(?) frames, you get both knockbacks combined.

Most noticeable in teams, also with Fox/Falco doubleshines/shine-aerials.

I believe Winston is wrong, and you get the slow dair thing with faster shine-dairs.

 

[FrootLoop]

that's like the opposite of all my experience with shinedair

 

[Lovage]

oh ya shine usmash (RUNNING) is the beez i've been trying to find good uses for it for a long time

i think everyone should have it in their arsenal for punishing missed techs at the very least, but it's actually pretty good as a straight up meaty *** approach if u want to push a shielding dude back onto the ledge

 

[mers]

I'm probly wrong then idk. Ask someone who knows stuff.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

mers ur right. I was replying to winston's pre-edited post, where he wasnt referencing slow dair.

its always the last move's knockback that matters, except in the case where two moves hit you with very little time between each other.

@frootloop: please explain what you mean?

 

[Winston]

My experience agrees with FrootLoop's; if you do the shine dair really fast then you get the full downwards knockback for the dair. If you do it slower then they go down slowly. Seriously, just turn on the gamecube and try it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUvJ6XphTA4#t=3m14s

I wish I could do stuff like this reliably.

The fox messed up like a million times... you probably could do that reliably if the jiggs you were playing had those defensive habits.

I think dthrow techchasing puff is worth going for to KO when they are past uthrow uair %, if not for damage building. (Though it is something I would try in tournament sets to see if they have bad anti-techchase habits that you can exploit, like the puff in that video.)

The techrolls are easy, but the in place/missed techs are way harder. Personally I don't think I can react with usmash/utilt, but I think jab the missed tech is viable for me. Its kind of gimmicky since it probably doesnt combo into usmash for real but it would probably work in a tournament set. DDing to bait getup actions/rolls probably also works pretty consistently if you realize you reacted too late.

I think you might be able to just throw out the jab a bit early to cover the missed tech/in place and still have time to chase the techrolls, but I experimented with this before myself.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I need to calm down

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sveet, explain the shine-dair here that knocks him onto the platform.

 

[unknown522]

I'm pretty sure there's more knockback when you shine -> d-air them like that

 

[KirbyKaze]

The shine has weird properties.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

it wasn't in the threshold for stacking I would assume

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm just curious about that specific behaviour because it doesn't really seem to fit anything discussed.

The shine in general is weird.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

well i did a bit of testing for you guys... i am not willing to make a broad statement, but in the case of falco's shine->dair, there is an awkward window for knockback stacking. From my tests it starts when the 2nd connects, at the earliest, 11 frames into hitstun and at least 16 frames after that. Hits before the window result in (apparent) regular knockback. I tested this by comparing a non-combo'd dair to an immediate shine->dair and there was no obvious difference (though i was not rigorous). I am very curious as to this property now that I have begun testing, but I wont be able to finish it atm. I told my friend I was going to his place for smash/another friends bday celebration, and i already spent 20 min after he called me working on this.

I will retract and apologize for my statements on knockback stacking. I had based it on things I had read (previous tests from strongbad/magus on the double shine stack) and not my own tests.

 

[FrootLoop]

sveet when I do shinedair real quick they get full dair knockback, but if there's more delay between shine and dair then they don't get as much knockback most of the time. This seems to be the opposite of what you were explaining.

another example is hrc batdrops, you have to spike the bag as soon as the bat hits it to keep it grounded. That's how I always thought it worked.

does it change if both attacks hit before they start getting kb'd?

 

[unknown522]

Yeah, if you hit later with the d-air after the shine, it will give the opponent the slow descent. That's how pillar combos work.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This is what I get for listening to SB's posts and not testing things myself

 

[Silent Wolf]

falcos garbage in project m cuz theres no momentum carry over in his shine -> dair combos.

and by garbage i mean less of a combo monster vs non fast fallers