PGH Carroll
Smash Master
lol i havent been on aim since i was mackin on the 6th grade biddys.
you have a facebook? http://www.facebook.com/DJnicholasRAGE
you have a facebook? http://www.facebook.com/DJnicholasRAGE
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
D
Deleted member
Guest
i don't use facebook, too many professional implications after college
Sinji
Smash Master
I mean, apart from the noobs that trolled the application thread after my application, I have faith in Cactuar regardless of the state of the thread. I hope Cactuar sees that I can contribute to the community.
Oh yea, This shouldn't be said in the fox boards, but I still think Peach should be top tier.
Oh yea, This shouldn't be said in the fox boards, but I still think Peach should be top tier.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Fortress | Sveet
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Sometimes I think we should do a less split tier list. Like other fighting games have like 3 to 5 tiers.
S: Falco, Sheik, Fox, Puff, Peach, Marth
A: Falcon, ICs, Ganon, Doc, Samus, Pikachu, Luigi, Mario
B: Everyone else
S: Falco, Sheik, Fox, Puff, Peach, Marth
A: Falcon, ICs, Ganon, Doc, Samus, Pikachu, Luigi, Mario
B: Everyone else
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Haha, Mario is in the same tier as Falcon ... what a joke ...
Zone
Smash Champion
Ok so I'm 100% positive now I'm maining Fox.
I have a few questions for problems I've been having:
What do you do when you're 100% sure a falco is gonna laser grab you and he's already at the perfect spacing to laser you/your shield then grab you.
I'm also having problems with REALLY good marths. Like He basically dash dances around. And if he expects a Dash dance grab from me as in he's pretty sure I'm staying grounded he'll down tilt me. If he thinks I'm approaching with a Sex kick, he'll outrun me and grab me before a shine/jab even comes out.
I think to counter the down tilt, Down air into shine -> grab is a good counter. This guy and the Samus player though are really good at smash DI'ing my down air and my shine sometimes doesn't connect to their hurtbox.
I'm assuming for the dash dance grabbing he's doing on me I need to just not approach and bait. if he goes too far away laser? if he gets a little closer change back to dash dancing?
and if I do approach over shoot?
I'm also very bad about getting dash attacked. It's like he's a genie and knows when to use it. Because I know full well I will punish the hell out of it if I block. But I don't know what he's looking for to know when to dash attack me. Anyone know what marths look for when they do dash attack? It must be some sort of obvious/guaranteed thing to do something so unsafe.
Also when I fight Samus. What do you guys do off of a grab? I generally try to just bait the double jump then try to either up-air, or bait the down air on the 2nd jump and upsmash. Sometimes i'll downthrow tech chase upsmash if I feel I can't get anything off of upthrow.
Also is it possible to time my nair-shine-Retreat nair out of shine, to completely avoid her UP+B out of shield? or do I have to start delaying my aerial then just l-cancel into shield?
I have a few questions for problems I've been having:
What do you do when you're 100% sure a falco is gonna laser grab you and he's already at the perfect spacing to laser you/your shield then grab you.
I'm also having problems with REALLY good marths. Like He basically dash dances around. And if he expects a Dash dance grab from me as in he's pretty sure I'm staying grounded he'll down tilt me. If he thinks I'm approaching with a Sex kick, he'll outrun me and grab me before a shine/jab even comes out.
I think to counter the down tilt, Down air into shine -> grab is a good counter. This guy and the Samus player though are really good at smash DI'ing my down air and my shine sometimes doesn't connect to their hurtbox.
I'm assuming for the dash dance grabbing he's doing on me I need to just not approach and bait. if he goes too far away laser? if he gets a little closer change back to dash dancing?
and if I do approach over shoot?
I'm also very bad about getting dash attacked. It's like he's a genie and knows when to use it. Because I know full well I will punish the hell out of it if I block. But I don't know what he's looking for to know when to dash attack me. Anyone know what marths look for when they do dash attack? It must be some sort of obvious/guaranteed thing to do something so unsafe.
Also when I fight Samus. What do you guys do off of a grab? I generally try to just bait the double jump then try to either up-air, or bait the down air on the 2nd jump and upsmash. Sometimes i'll downthrow tech chase upsmash if I feel I can't get anything off of upthrow.
Also is it possible to time my nair-shine-Retreat nair out of shine, to completely avoid her UP+B out of shield? or do I have to start delaying my aerial then just l-cancel into shield?
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
If you know he's going to laser grab your shield, just spotdodge shine
Obviously you have to change if he catches on, but it forces them to mix it up
Dash attack is very good for covering a dash away if they have the read on your dashdance rhythm, which is something I'm not very good at paying attention to so I get hit a lot by dash attacks too haha
Bair is pretty safe on airborne floaties if you can't get upthrow upair to combo
Vs Marth neutral game I am not very good at so ... *shrug* overshoot > dashdance > normal aerial is like, the super basics of it haha
Obviously you have to change if he catches on, but it forces them to mix it up
Dash attack is very good for covering a dash away if they have the read on your dashdance rhythm, which is something I'm not very good at paying attention to so I get hit a lot by dash attacks too haha
Bair is pretty safe on airborne floaties if you can't get upthrow upair to combo
Vs Marth neutral game I am not very good at so ... *shrug* overshoot > dashdance > normal aerial is like, the super basics of it haha
unknown522
Some guy
Roll away
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
when I'm really confident that I can read a falco, I'll SH drill out of shield when he goes for a grab. But usually good falcos aren't so predictable that you can get away with overextending like that so I'd usually wavedash back oos to reset positioning. Even wavedashing onto the ledge oos is ok, because I can invincible ledgedash and get to the middle of the stage.
Rolling is really ****ing good if they don't read it lol.
Jumping oos is fine too, you can come down with a drill or uair (chillindude style) if they try to approach
**** i wish i coulda come over this weekend
Rolling is really ****ing good if they don't read it lol.
Jumping oos is fine too, you can come down with a drill or uair (chillindude style) if they try to approach
LMFAO
**** i wish i coulda come over this weekend
Lovage
Smash Hero
falco) it depends on how close to you + the ground he is when his laser comes out. i don't know frames or anything but if falco does it super fast it's really hard to roll out haha. but yea, if you think he's gonna grab you, buffer a roll with c-stick, do a shine oos or just sidestep.
marth) if the marth is stubborn in his DDing, you need to play his game just enuff for him to mess up. that means use a bit of dash dancing to force him closer to the corner or use some single lasers to make him approach you (often he'll just continue faking approaches lol.) if you can get a bit closer to the corner, full hop fast fall nair becomes a better option. use fuill hop bair (or regular nair) to beat dtilt or any weird approaches he throws out.
samus) not much you can do off throws, uthrow and maybe try to catch them with a bair or uair their double jump, just don't get nair'd while you're up there messin around. the best way to bait up+b oos is just to have delicate spacing all da time, don't attack deep into their shield unless you're sure your timing is spot on and you'll get a shine out.
nair shine retreat nair won't work as well vs. samus, the up+b will often clip your retreating nair, and you wont be able to punish the up+b usually cuz nair is too slow. what you want to do optimally is nair/shine their shield 1-2 times and then shield/lightshield until they up+b above you and uair them 2 times. this is the same strat i use for baiting doc's usmash oos, peach's up+b oos, pikachu's uair oos ETC.
marth) if the marth is stubborn in his DDing, you need to play his game just enuff for him to mess up. that means use a bit of dash dancing to force him closer to the corner or use some single lasers to make him approach you (often he'll just continue faking approaches lol.) if you can get a bit closer to the corner, full hop fast fall nair becomes a better option. use fuill hop bair (or regular nair) to beat dtilt or any weird approaches he throws out.
samus) not much you can do off throws, uthrow and maybe try to catch them with a bair or uair their double jump, just don't get nair'd while you're up there messin around. the best way to bait up+b oos is just to have delicate spacing all da time, don't attack deep into their shield unless you're sure your timing is spot on and you'll get a shine out.
nair shine retreat nair won't work as well vs. samus, the up+b will often clip your retreating nair, and you wont be able to punish the up+b usually cuz nair is too slow. what you want to do optimally is nair/shine their shield 1-2 times and then shield/lightshield until they up+b above you and uair them 2 times. this is the same strat i use for baiting doc's usmash oos, peach's up+b oos, pikachu's uair oos ETC.
rokimomi
Smash Lord
never really thought about baiting up B from samus with shield after nairshine like that but I guess I can see how it works
Is it reliable though, sounds like a one time gimmick for some reason, after which they call ur shield and shieldgrab
Is it reliable though, sounds like a one time gimmick for some reason, after which they call ur shield and shieldgrab
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
that definitely doesn't happen much in my experience pika avatar, samus's grab is extremely slow/risky and with the proper spacingz it should be easy to react to samus's grab (samus not doing an up-B, really) - plus if you land behind their shield that option is gone anyway
I'm thinking back and I don't think I've ever been shieldgrabbed by a samus for trying to bait an up-B oos.
anyway yeah it's true though, with shield pressuring samus there isn't really a one-size-fits-all option and you kinda have to adapt/read a LIL BIT
I'm thinking back and I don't think I've ever been shieldgrabbed by a samus for trying to bait an up-B oos.
anyway yeah it's true though, with shield pressuring samus there isn't really a one-size-fits-all option and you kinda have to adapt/read a LIL BIT
unknown522
Some guy
her up-b almost always goes through my shield. Even when I light shield
@ toph: yeah shield grabbing never works with samus. You can react to it. It's pretty sad. Then you can sidestep and punish with whatever you want
Bones0
Smash Legend
If they are near the spacing for laser-grab, they're close enough for laser-shine to be a serious threat, and you can't spotdodge/roll out of laser-shine. FH over the laser and either drill (if you're facing him), bair (if you're facing away), or if a counterattack seems unsafe, just WL or DJ onto a platform. If for some reason you can't get off the ground before the laser reaches you, then you may have to resort to rolling. Rolling away is usually better because Falco struggles to cover ground quickly. Expect another approaching SHL and try and jump before that one gets to you.
You should either be out of Marth's tipper fsmash range or right on top of him. If he is able to dtilt you dash dancing, it means you aren't watching him close enough during your DD. The reason I say that is he can't dtilt out of a DD. For him to dtilt, he's either WDing or getting into a full run, so when you see either of those, it's a good chance to pounce (from the air).
Marth players love love LOVE to dash attack to beat dashing away. Since it sounds like you already rely heavily on DDing in your game, it's no wonder you're getting dash attacked so much (and why it seems like he's psychic even though you're moving back and forth). If you see them dash forward when you dash back, you have a few options. FHing will keep you above a dash attack and offers you a good counterattack option if you guessed right, but if you're wrong, it does have the potential to backfire if their dash forward was an aerial approach or if they stay grounded and go for an utilt. Alternatively, you can simply shield. You should be far enough that if he goes for a grab you can GTFO, and if you were right about him dash attacking, you can WD back OoS and utilt/dash attack.
Sinji
Smash Master
You can bait the up b by waveshining>backwards then upair after the animation.
Zone
Smash Champion
Thanks for the feedback.
I'll try to incorporate everyone's advice.
Funny thing is I knew that marth can't downtilt out of DD, but For some reason I didn't think to look for a wavedash or a long run. Thanks for mentioning that. The answer was in my face.
Thanks for the Samus advice Lovage, I'll give that a try next time.
As for falco grab thing. I know I should space properly to avoid that to begin with but I'll try the spot dodge shine tactic. I already do roll sometimes, but It felt super limited. I know how to deal with shield pressure from Falco, I was just having problems with laser to grab.
A few more questions.
I played against Mike G a couple weeks ago. And he jabbed the hell out of me on every approach... how the hell do I bait a jab? I mean it's fast enough if I "bait" it he's in control again. Oh I'm talking about Peach btw.
Peach kept jabbing the hell out of me on all my approaches. So I just resorted to laser camping, and trying to catch her with a nair on her approach.
How do you guys deal with Falcon's Nair? at low % I usually just CC upsmash or Grab. but what about when you're like 80%? (Besides the obvious try to just outspace it) A flying nair can tend to cover the stage so it's not easy to outrun/bait it.
I'll try to incorporate everyone's advice.
Funny thing is I knew that marth can't downtilt out of DD, but For some reason I didn't think to look for a wavedash or a long run. Thanks for mentioning that. The answer was in my face.
Thanks for the Samus advice Lovage, I'll give that a try next time.
As for falco grab thing. I know I should space properly to avoid that to begin with but I'll try the spot dodge shine tactic. I already do roll sometimes, but It felt super limited. I know how to deal with shield pressure from Falco, I was just having problems with laser to grab.
A few more questions.
I played against Mike G a couple weeks ago. And he jabbed the hell out of me on every approach... how the hell do I bait a jab? I mean it's fast enough if I "bait" it he's in control again. Oh I'm talking about Peach btw.
Peach kept jabbing the hell out of me on all my approaches. So I just resorted to laser camping, and trying to catch her with a nair on her approach.
How do you guys deal with Falcon's Nair? at low % I usually just CC upsmash or Grab. but what about when you're like 80%? (Besides the obvious try to just outspace it) A flying nair can tend to cover the stage so it's not easy to outrun/bait it.
rokimomi
Smash Lord
i realized that up B was the only thing keeping me from wrecking samus really, duck calls it every time and it seemed hard to really get it out of him as a reaction. Then when anyone else plays her and doesnt up B at all, its ez money
he's just scary and screw screw attack so hard
he's just scary and screw screw attack so hard
unknown522
Some guy
Either punish the jab with a CC, or after he whiffs.
Alternatively, you would attack him earlier.
Or run in and shield it.
Or full hop over it.
Upsmash it.
Alternatively, you would attack him earlier.
Or run in and shield it.
Or full hop over it.
Upsmash it.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
btw vs. samus, remember: you can always just get hit by the up-B and don't worry too much about it lol. being scared to do stuff to samus is really really bad (being scared to do stuff in general is the easiest way to lose a matchup)
honestly? getting hit by up-B doesn't really do that much to you most of the time (just kinda resets position, and puts you on a platform or whatever. just try not to land on the top platform on YS/BF and it's not a big deal)
btw remember, on FD, unless you're at the edge of the stage you can shield pressure samus for free because if she up-B's out of shield, you can literally just take the hit, wiggle the control stick to get out of tumble, reach the ground before her and usmash her for free
(if you guys are at the edge of the stage then she can up-B and go to the ledge)
honestly? getting hit by up-B doesn't really do that much to you most of the time (just kinda resets position, and puts you on a platform or whatever. just try not to land on the top platform on YS/BF and it's not a big deal)
btw remember, on FD, unless you're at the edge of the stage you can shield pressure samus for free because if she up-B's out of shield, you can literally just take the hit, wiggle the control stick to get out of tumble, reach the ground before her and usmash her for free
(if you guys are at the edge of the stage then she can up-B and go to the ledge)
unknown522
Some guy
^ this is correct. But then again, you can punish on any level because when she hits with the up-b, you'll get knocked down if you're holding down (I get the tech sometimes due to shieldstab, or sometimes because of l-canceling).
rokimomi
Smash Lord
true true, I'll try that punish out
Sinji
Smash Master
i got ***** yesterday by a link main. anybody knows the fox vs link matchup?
Fortress | Sveet
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laser laser laser laser laser, link does anything at all->nair/shine/grab/dair/bair/usmash
Sinji
Smash Master
Its not that simple. This Link main is really good, I mean he can read me well especially when I'm in the air with those Upairs. I can platform camp him but on FD I'm having a real problem.
Fortress | Sveet
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Then he is outplaying you. You probably won't get more than a simple answer on the internet. If you can think of something more specific you would like information on, i'm sure people can help you. Its probably best for you to figure it out on your own, though
Sinji
Smash Master
Yea he was outplaying me. i got more in depth from kk a while ago so im good.
Lovage
Smash Hero
dont platform OR laser camp link. thats the best way to lose vs. low tiers that you don't know anything about.
just rush his dumb *** down because he's link and has 2 oos options (roll and up+b) cover his slow *** roll with more nairs, beat him in the air cuz you're way faster, invincible shine him on the ledge because his recovery blows. use full hop bair if you think hes gonna do an approach. don't get knocked down cuz he can dsmash tech chase you. don't choose recovery angles where you can get up+b'd.
just rush his dumb *** down because he's link and has 2 oos options (roll and up+b) cover his slow *** roll with more nairs, beat him in the air cuz you're way faster, invincible shine him on the ledge because his recovery blows. use full hop bair if you think hes gonna do an approach. don't get knocked down cuz he can dsmash tech chase you. don't choose recovery angles where you can get up+b'd.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
WORD amen
Bones0
Smash Legend
Am I the only one who thinks lasers are really overrated? Being a Falco main, I love just running around spamming lasers whenever I get the chance, but I can't help feeling that I'm better off just straight up spacing. Even vs. slow floaties like Jiggs, that extra 5% just seems so negligible when compared to the potential damage and positioning advantage of getting a solid hit. Obviously if they are just straight up camping across the stage and you want them to approach lasering makes sense, but assuming they are within range for you to threaten each other, is there really a good reason to use lasers?
One situation I do think I could make an exception for is when characters are recovering and you can land like 4-5 lasers on them just because the damage is decent enough, and vs. characters like Peach/Jiggs you aren't really going to be trying to edgehog them anyway (assuming they were able to DI high).
One situation I do think I could make an exception for is when characters are recovering and you can land like 4-5 lasers on them just because the damage is decent enough, and vs. characters like Peach/Jiggs you aren't really going to be trying to edgehog them anyway (assuming they were able to DI high).
unknown522
Some guy
Yes. Yes I do
Silent Wolf
...
lasers are filthy
Bing
Smash Master
Isnt Drillshine Upsmash good vs Link?
lord karn
Smash Master
Laser camping sheik and jiggs on big stages (especially on dreamland) is really op. I honestly think that peach has an almost unwinnable matchup with fox on dreamland. The only problem is that in such a long match fox players mess up a lot. I laser some vs. sheik, but not against falco, marth, or falcon.
Lovage
Smash Hero
lol lasers are definitely the ****in beez, i just wouldn't recommend them to anyone unless they're super comfortable with fox's movement already because they're gonna get ****stomped if they try to laser at awful times.
Fortress | Sveet
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^ pretty much that
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
ya. and imo especially on FD (where Sinji said he was having trouble with Link the most) i think laser camping is particularly difficult because of the lack of platforms to get away, so in that particular instance especially laser camping probably isn't the right choice