1. Forward/ Behind
2. If they SDI the dair you wont be able to follow with shine (not always tho, but in most of the times.)
3. Yeah, all you have to do is angle your waveshine a little forward when you're feeling like getting pushed away.
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
2. If they SDI the dair you wont be able to follow with shine (not always tho, but in most of the times.)
3. Yeah, all you have to do is angle your waveshine a little forward when you're feeling like getting pushed away.
It'll be better if you had a vid up on youtube. Then you can post it on SW's advice thread and ask about specific thunder's questions thereOkay, thanks man. I just find that I can't hit with the uair during thunder's combo without having to dash first. Guess I'll just have to work that out.
Öni
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2007
- Messages
- 58
Uhm I've got some questions...
Hey I'm a German fox player.I only say this because if not,you maybe wonder why there are so many mistakes xD.
1.Shdl
I can only do a standing shdl by jumping with the control stick I think I must jump with Y but normally I use X and so I'm not fast enough to slide my thumb over to B.
Which button do you use to Shdl?
2.Waveshine
This question is again which button do you use to JC the shine and do you use L or R to airdodge?
3.Which button do you use to jump?As I said before I use X but I think Y is much better.
4.C-Stick
I didn't use the C-stick but then I read that nearly every pro uses it.So when should I use it?
I hope you understood my questions^^ and thanks for your help
Hey I'm a German fox player.I only say this because if not,you maybe wonder why there are so many mistakes xD.
1.Shdl
I can only do a standing shdl by jumping with the control stick I think I must jump with Y but normally I use X and so I'm not fast enough to slide my thumb over to B.
Which button do you use to Shdl?
2.Waveshine
This question is again which button do you use to JC the shine and do you use L or R to airdodge?
3.Which button do you use to jump?As I said before I use X but I think Y is much better.
4.C-Stick
I didn't use the C-stick but then I read that nearly every pro uses it.So when should I use it?
I hope you understood my questions^^ and thanks for your help
4 Aces
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 892
1. I slide my thumb from Y to B. Use whatever is easiest to you. I like Y to B because I can only do it that way and cause I can move around and turn around with my left hand, while I sh and shoot two lasers with my right.
2. I press X to JC it. I press R to wavedash and waveshine. I press L to airdodge, tech, shield, and do the various dodges
3. I like X. Y is for double lasers.
4. I don't use it. You don't have to use it. You do it for many reasons. Shffl is supposed to be easier. You can have better control of DI like bairing while moving forward or if you do C-stick DI stuff. You can upsmash out of shield (I use it for this). You can do a crouch cancel counter (hold down, get hit, then C-stick downward). I use it for crouch cancel counter aswell. I might've missed some.
2. I press X to JC it. I press R to wavedash and waveshine. I press L to airdodge, tech, shield, and do the various dodges
3. I like X. Y is for double lasers.
4. I don't use it. You don't have to use it. You do it for many reasons. Shffl is supposed to be easier. You can have better control of DI like bairing while moving forward or if you do C-stick DI stuff. You can upsmash out of shield (I use it for this). You can do a crouch cancel counter (hold down, get hit, then C-stick downward). I use it for crouch cancel counter aswell. I might've missed some.
cstick is mainly for getting the most aerial control out of aerial attacks, and it's easier to Fast fall aerails w/ it too. It's pretty much way better for jc smashes as well. And for buffering rolls out of shields (it's the only way to do that).
brawlpro
Smash Master
C'stick let's you pull off a shffl'd uair 3x easier.
IIRC Falcon can be CGd from 20-40, but i'm not 100% on that. JFox made a thread about it here. The uthrow>waveshine can be DI'd up (on the shine) and you won't be able to re-grab.
Edit: Yep, 20-40
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=103089
Edit: Yep, 20-40
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=103089
How do you fight Luigi? More specifically:
1 How do you approach him?
2 What are some combos that generally work on him, and can you respond with the amount of damage (I'm not looking for specific just low/mid/high)?
3 What are some things to watch out for?
4 What's the best way to edgeguard him when he's far away and he could missfire?
I'm just looking for input, I usually approach with nairs and watch out for his down b since it has so much range. Only combos I know are you can shine to phantasm him and you can nair combo him, however, I have no idea what percentages (shine>phantasm is any percent, right?).
1 How do you approach him?
2 What are some combos that generally work on him, and can you respond with the amount of damage (I'm not looking for specific just low/mid/high)?
3 What are some things to watch out for?
4 What's the best way to edgeguard him when he's far away and he could missfire?
I'm just looking for input, I usually approach with nairs and watch out for his down b since it has so much range. Only combos I know are you can shine to phantasm him and you can nair combo him, however, I have no idea what percentages (shine>phantasm is any percent, right?).
brawlpro
Smash Master
1) ----
2) ----
3) His down b, utilt, dsmash, be ready to tech away right when you hit the ground because his combos can continue harshly if you don't. And his nair, don't uthrow > uair. The grabs, he can uthrow/dthrow > dair you and kill at high percents so DI away, his chaingrab can't last that long if you di away.
4) Just be edge hogging waiting to see if he misfires or not, if he lands on the stage immediately get to him while he's lagging and nair > usmash or something, if he misfires below you just do a ledge dropped shinespike, oh and remember it just takes 1 shine near the stage to kill him or something, idk 4 sure.
I don't shine > Illusion a lot because I don't know how to follow up from it, help?
2) ----
3) His down b, utilt, dsmash, be ready to tech away right when you hit the ground because his combos can continue harshly if you don't. And his nair, don't uthrow > uair. The grabs, he can uthrow/dthrow > dair you and kill at high percents so DI away, his chaingrab can't last that long if you di away.
4) Just be edge hogging waiting to see if he misfires or not, if he lands on the stage immediately get to him while he's lagging and nair > usmash or something, if he misfires below you just do a ledge dropped shinespike, oh and remember it just takes 1 shine near the stage to kill him or something, idk 4 sure.
I don't shine > Illusion a lot because I don't know how to follow up from it, help?
I do uthrow to uair on luigi because they either jump right away or the just hold out their nair since it has so much priority. So, uthrow>wait is wicked good is all I'm saying.
I have no idea about following the shine>illusion. I usually don't do it because I'm afraid I'm going to fall off the ledge.
I have no idea about following the shine>illusion. I usually don't do it because I'm afraid I'm going to fall off the ledge.
brawlpro
Smash Master
They can just keep spamming A so when their nair goes away another one pops up before u can uair.
LuCKy
Smash Master
is it possible to u throw shine bair a space animal?
Silent Wolf
...
yeah
. if they Di at low %s you cant thouhg. hit with the top of the shine.
brawlpro
Smash Master
Sorry dbl post.
or keep pressing Z without much effort...
Try turning around after the shine for more sexyness =]
ComboTurtle
Smash Lord
i use x for shdl
Silent Wolf
...
1 - You don't approach Luigi much. Try to throw out nairs where you think he would WD to. Make sure to not leave yourself open with it though, and don't do it all that often, otherwise he'll read it pretty easily. If you do ed up grabbing him, just go for an uair as fast as possible and space it so only the 2nd part would hit, that way you keep safe. Fast fall after it so you don't get daird or something if you miss. If he jumps, just try to jump and get him with another uair (2nd part only) or jump once in his direction to see if he throws out an attack then. Lasering would also work alright if he jumps out of the first one. You shouldn't worry too much about his nair lol. If you uair right you can get right through it. Won't get into too much more.
2 - I'm not too sure about any actual damages the combos work at, I just base it off how far they went from the last hit. Playing Lv1-3 cpus really helps comboing. Just use basic combos like nair>usmash, or nair>uair at higher percentages. Nair shine near the ledge. If he's ever waiting on the ledge, you can shield by it and shine out of shield him if he ledge hops and hits you. Some Luigis might ledge dash past you and jump bair because they're onto this, so watch out for that. Ka-Master does that one and it works lol. Do what I said before with the up throw. Luigi is quite good at breaking out of combos with aerials though, so you need to make sure to keep a safe combo going and know when to finish. Better safe than sorry. Getting used to when you should quit most combos takes practice though, so work on that. You'll have to be quick to fight Luigi. About that Shine>Side-B combo Wobbles made up, if they Di the shine away they can avoid getting hit with the side-b. If you do land the side-b, if it looks safe enough, bair is the best choice. You usually can't get a uair in time.
3 - Watch out for certain points in combos he can break out at. You just have to play him enough to get used to it. It depends on how he DIs it, what move you did, what percent he's at, how you spaced it, etc. Practice. Also be onto the fact that his ftilt can get you if you're trying to sweetspot from anywhere above the ledge. Be ready for him to come at you fast with a WD too, of course.
4 - Just wait for his side-b to come out most of the time. after it comes out, just go shine him if he's at too low of a percent to die from uair. Be ready to go out and shine his down-b after that if they do that, or just another side-b.
Just another tip:
Usually when they're near the edge and you're on the side with most of the stage behind you, if you bair them they will Di in, so if you can get a bair, be sure to try to jump out there and shine as fast as possible, because they usually can't do anything about it. It works even if they don't Di into you most of the time as well.
That's all I'll go into right now.
Thank-you! I'm pretty good at fighting Luigi with Fox anyways. I was just seeing if there was more to the matchup than I thought and there is thanks to you. I just figured I'd ask anyways since you know, you fight Ka-master and all, haha. Maybe I'll record some matches.
I'm pretty good at fighting Luigi with Fox anyways. I was just seeing if there was more to the matchup than I thought and there is thanks to you. I just figured I'd ask anyways since you know, you fight Ka-master and all, haha. Maybe I'll record some matches.Loek
Smash Rookie
I'm just a newb, and I am not so fast. I just got a new gamecube controller, an original emerald one. But the l and r buttons are strange to me, because I learned all the basics on an older controller. I just ask these question because I want to get better.
Questions:
How can I train wavedashing and wavelanding and use it in a match? I will explain to you how I wavedash. I jump with x, then dodge with r and almost immediately move the control stick to a bottem corner where I want to move. And I waveland only with r and the control stick again. But my problem is, how can I do this fast? And how can I practise it?
I am not so fast and not so good with wavedashing, how is it possible for me to train waveshining properly? How can I do this without doing a full jump after a shine instead of a wavedash? :S
Because it happens a lot that I just jump, and not wavedash.
How do I know when I use l-cancel? And can you still l-cancel after a second jump? How good is the shffl of fox without ff? And when should I time the ff? Could someone give me a link of a vid with the shffls of Fox?
How can I use the uair and dair of Fox in a short hop? I have a problem with the uair because I always use my second jump. And what am I doing wrong if I ff the dair immediately? How can I perform the dair different?
How is it possible to use a shine after a shffled dair? I just can not do that. Because it will take around 1/3 second till the shine works. What could be the problem? And how can I practise this?
Is it smart to ff the shl of Fox? Or can you just do it without the ff?
I use the PAL version.
Questions:
How can I train wavedashing and wavelanding and use it in a match? I will explain to you how I wavedash. I jump with x, then dodge with r and almost immediately move the control stick to a bottem corner where I want to move. And I waveland only with r and the control stick again. But my problem is, how can I do this fast? And how can I practise it?
I am not so fast and not so good with wavedashing, how is it possible for me to train waveshining properly? How can I do this without doing a full jump after a shine instead of a wavedash? :S
Because it happens a lot that I just jump, and not wavedash.
How do I know when I use l-cancel? And can you still l-cancel after a second jump? How good is the shffl of fox without ff? And when should I time the ff? Could someone give me a link of a vid with the shffls of Fox?
How can I use the uair and dair of Fox in a short hop? I have a problem with the uair because I always use my second jump. And what am I doing wrong if I ff the dair immediately? How can I perform the dair different?
How is it possible to use a shine after a shffled dair? I just can not do that. Because it will take around 1/3 second till the shine works. What could be the problem? And how can I practise this?
Is it smart to ff the shl of Fox? Or can you just do it without the ff?
I use the PAL version.
First off, if you haven't yet seen this, watch it.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...807&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6
It goes over how to practice wavedashing.
For waveshining, if you're getting a full jump, it's likely that you're pressing R too quickly after x. Since you're new to it, it might seem like a lot of really fast button pressing, but it's really about a rhythm, make sure you use consistent timing between x and r.
At first, it might be difficult to tell if you're l cancelling w/ fox correctly because if your new, his aerials seem pretty fast as is. The best thing i can think of is to try shining after your aerial, and if it comes out slowly, you missed the L cancel. You can still l cancel after a second jump. You can l cancel any time you're landing w/ an aerial attack out.
for shffling a uair/diar/ anything else (not nair), use the c-stick to do the aerial. that'll prevent you from double jumping/ FFing incorrectly.
to practice the drillshine, just try training mode. If the combo counter increases when you hit them w/ the shine, you did it correctly. The key is to l cancel the dair correctly. (the l cancel timing is different depending on how many hits of the dair connect).
hope this helps.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...807&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6
It goes over how to practice wavedashing.
For waveshining, if you're getting a full jump, it's likely that you're pressing R too quickly after x. Since you're new to it, it might seem like a lot of really fast button pressing, but it's really about a rhythm, make sure you use consistent timing between x and r.
At first, it might be difficult to tell if you're l cancelling w/ fox correctly because if your new, his aerials seem pretty fast as is. The best thing i can think of is to try shining after your aerial, and if it comes out slowly, you missed the L cancel. You can still l cancel after a second jump. You can l cancel any time you're landing w/ an aerial attack out.
for shffling a uair/diar/ anything else (not nair), use the c-stick to do the aerial. that'll prevent you from double jumping/ FFing incorrectly.
to practice the drillshine, just try training mode. If the combo counter increases when you hit them w/ the shine, you did it correctly. The key is to l cancel the dair correctly. (the l cancel timing is different depending on how many hits of the dair connect).
hope this helps.
Shök
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 2,251
Yeah, all of this seems new. But everything will come with just practice.
First, the easiest way to uair and dair our of a short hop is using the C-stick. Immediately after you jump, move your thumb to the C-stick and perform your move.
Yes you can shine after a shffled dair, but you have to L-cancel the landing. As soon as you land, L-cancel and shine. That works with any other arial.
The lasers are up to you. You can either perform a SHL or a SHDL. Depending on the spacing is what matter when you sue the lasers. When far away it is better to SHDL. When near the opponent, you can just use the SHL.
I hope this helps and good luck with the practicing.
brawlpro
Smash Master
Instead of doing this just use training mode and shine after a nair or somethin, if it's two hits you l-canceled.(I think)
yeah but no c-stick in training mode =\
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
so i have a question..
for a long time i have noticed that i have a small percentage of missed JC grabs when crouching...much higher at least than the virtually nonexistant missing of dash JC grabs...
is the timing different or am i crazy? or maybe the timing is just different when i'm CC?
if i CC a hit and hit jump too early, it won't register meaning that... if i'm holding down, i should dtilt instead...?
finally, if i CC and then just let go and grab, am i going to lose too many frames while waiting to stand up so that i won't jab?
for a long time i have noticed that i have a small percentage of missed JC grabs when crouching...much higher at least than the virtually nonexistant missing of dash JC grabs...
is the timing different or am i crazy? or maybe the timing is just different when i'm CC?
if i CC a hit and hit jump too early, it won't register meaning that... if i'm holding down, i should dtilt instead...?
finally, if i CC and then just let go and grab, am i going to lose too many frames while waiting to stand up so that i won't jab?
if your talking about crouch-canceling into a grab, then the correct method is cc followed by a shield grab. You waste no frames waiting to return to neutral position this way. Although your choice of wording is a little confusing to me, so maybe im talking about the wrong thing.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
ah wonderful, thanks ix
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Nope, you can jc grab out of a crouch. Just make sure you actually press jump before pressing Z, and you'll get it.
I have a question: Shouldn't it be possible to easily escape jab->grab by just buffering a roll? I've seen people jump out, though this may be a cause of imperfect execution, and I think that you're not stunned long enough to not be able to escape.
So: is it possible to escape jab->grab, and if so, why don't more people do it?
Yes, mostly because they don't know how to do it, and is not 100% effective anyway, someone can predict that or still go for dash>jc grab regardless of how much close they're to you
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Yes, but it's better to roll out and maybe get roll chased than to get grabbed for sure. Thank you.
brawlpro
Smash Master
So what do I do vs Samus, I mean, I can't uthrow combo the *****, what's effective and stuff?
mikeHAZE
Smash Legend
you camp, and wait for them to react or predict where their going to jump after the up throw.
idk i've been playing hugo for months still can't figure out anything.
idk i've been playing hugo for months still can't figure out anything.
Silent Wolf
...
Full hop triple lasers a lot. Drill>Waveshine>Usmash. Wavedash out of shield, waveshine usmash. That's about it.
brawlpro
Smash Master
Well that stuff worked vs samus's I played yesterday, but at the smashfest, this guy, best ic in st.louis ***** me every match, I think the ic match up is the only one I have trouble with now, so help plz! I just need the basic strategy and what stages I should ban against them and choose as a counter pick, my friend fred told me to go rainbow cruise but the ic player always bans it, so which others are good choices?
Oh and what do you ppl prefer, shdl or shl >_>? I prefer shl not because i can't shdl, but because I can move around more while doing it, and he lands fast so I can do another one right after pretty fast, while with the shdl the top laser goes above most char's and fox seems slower doing it. I can shdl just fine but in matches I tend to not unless I'm vs marth or somethin.
Oh and what do you ppl prefer, shdl or shl >_>? I prefer shl not because i can't shdl, but because I can move around more while doing it, and he lands fast so I can do another one right after pretty fast, while with the shdl the top laser goes above most char's and fox seems slower doing it. I can shdl just fine but in matches I tend to not unless I'm vs marth or somethin.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
hey guys, need some help with getting back on from the edge vs peach..mainly above 100...the dsmash covers both options...wavelanding on to a grab is too slow to reach before the dsmash..
the main option (one that i almost never use due to playing marth and getting used to the riskiness) is phantasm onto the stage...but what else can i do..
if you try to aerial on you get CC if you're nairing..so dair is an option i guess...to be too close enough to do both spots they have to be in range..but unfortunately wD back or sh nair tend to beat the dair out..i think?
anyways i just want people to post all they know about the art of getting on vs peach..if she's doing this is it safe to just jump/double jump past her? on platform stages i did this with quite good success..but i don't know whether the peach can full jump nair fast enough from reacting to punish it
...i guess i should just be going for the dair more..and then when she starts wd back just land and do something else instead?
i've also heard that hop on to waveland off to rejump on is good for baiting stuff..which might be effective at getting back on..
anyways all thoughts and help appreciated
thought i'd post a second major question:
this is more of a topic for debate...punishing falco's who spotdodge..is it better to just do one of those wonderful nairs that hang..or risk dashdancing to grab? because honestly grabs do so much vs falco..but if you miss the grab..ie you bait the spotdodge but are spaced so that your grab is slightly slow..you get shine comboed for 60ish:\
anyways, i find that on good players i am usually better off using more nairs to punish the spotdodge (same with marth only more so)...that way i don't risk those huge combos..on the other hand, people who don't shine fast enough after the spotdodge i rarely have to bother with..anyways should i continue trying to improve my timing so that i can get the grab after the spotdodge? I usually dashdance to bait it..though i could also dash to shield..i'm just bad at spacing where i'm shielding..someitmes i misspace and get punished
the main option (one that i almost never use due to playing marth and getting used to the riskiness) is phantasm onto the stage...but what else can i do..
if you try to aerial on you get CC if you're nairing..so dair is an option i guess...to be too close enough to do both spots they have to be in range..but unfortunately wD back or sh nair tend to beat the dair out..i think?
anyways i just want people to post all they know about the art of getting on vs peach..if she's doing this is it safe to just jump/double jump past her? on platform stages i did this with quite good success..but i don't know whether the peach can full jump nair fast enough from reacting to punish it
...i guess i should just be going for the dair more..and then when she starts wd back just land and do something else instead?
i've also heard that hop on to waveland off to rejump on is good for baiting stuff..which might be effective at getting back on..
anyways all thoughts and help appreciated
thought i'd post a second major question:
this is more of a topic for debate...punishing falco's who spotdodge..is it better to just do one of those wonderful nairs that hang..or risk dashdancing to grab? because honestly grabs do so much vs falco..but if you miss the grab..ie you bait the spotdodge but are spaced so that your grab is slightly slow..you get shine comboed for 60ish:\
anyways, i find that on good players i am usually better off using more nairs to punish the spotdodge (same with marth only more so)...that way i don't risk those huge combos..on the other hand, people who don't shine fast enough after the spotdodge i rarely have to bother with..anyways should i continue trying to improve my timing so that i can get the grab after the spotdodge? I usually dashdance to bait it..though i could also dash to shield..i'm just bad at spacing where i'm shielding..someitmes i misspace and get punished
I play my brother's Dsmash happy Peach a lot.. Yes, Dsmash is hard to get around when he's edgeguarding. You can UpB upwards and DI to land on the ledge. I prefer the other way, however. With the first way, you might get Nair'd/Fair'd. The second way is to UpB up the side of the stage straight into the first hit of Peach's Dsmash. Then tech it (It really isn't that hard, if you practice it a few times you'll get it every time after that) and phantasm sweetspot onto the ledge. It should catch the Peach off guard.
Once you're on the ledge, you are in danger >.> Peach could Dsmash you once your invincibility runs out.. obviously. SO you can attempt to do a get-up attack or roll back on stage, but I wouldn't highly suggest it. What I prefer to do is to ledgehop into Dair > Waveshine > GrabUthrowUair/Usmash. This works better as higher percents, as you will get a kill on Peach. Lower percents is good too, cuz you can land some decent damage on her. If you want to go with a safer approach, however, you can drop down from the ledge, jump up and walljump on the wall, then phantasm back on the stage. If you time if properly, you should phantasm just above the Dsmash's hitbox and hit Peach herself.
Remember^^ these won't always work if your opponent knows the techniques. If they have really good prediction, you might get aerial'd. I find , however, that these work for Dsmash happy Peaches.
Once you're on the ledge, you are in danger >.> Peach could Dsmash you once your invincibility runs out.. obviously. SO you can attempt to do a get-up attack or roll back on stage, but I wouldn't highly suggest it. What I prefer to do is to ledgehop into Dair > Waveshine > GrabUthrowUair/Usmash. This works better as higher percents, as you will get a kill on Peach. Lower percents is good too, cuz you can land some decent damage on her. If you want to go with a safer approach, however, you can drop down from the ledge, jump up and walljump on the wall, then phantasm back on the stage. If you time if properly, you should phantasm just above the Dsmash's hitbox and hit Peach herself.
Remember^^ these won't always work if your opponent knows the techniques. If they have really good prediction, you might get aerial'd. I find , however, that these work for Dsmash happy Peaches.
the really fast shdl is done by jumping and double lasering again as soon as you land/touch the ground, it looks just about the same speed of the shl and basically looks way better than shl.
It hurts your fingers after a while though =/