Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[TemPesT-]

Lovage is so good at tech skill.

 

[Kanelol]

eh he's ok

Spoiler

inb4 hordes and legions of dickriders

 

[omgwtfToph]

@lovage

out of shield options arent "tech skill"

if youre just gonna skim **** and flame people then gtfo lol


edit: haha its masashi's birthday today. time to do some full jump nairs in his honor

 

[mastermoo420]

I didn't...

wow... really?

I meant canceling the jump out of shield with a shine before you leave the ground, which is pretty much impossible

unless you're like eggm or joeplicate

Actually, we've had this debate, and the shine comes out when you leave the ground no matter what, lol. I mean, if you think about it, the so-called "JC-shine" is really Fox jumping and shining on the first possible frame of the jump animation. And that occurs on the frame where he is airbourne (just a little bit). So yeah. But you land immediately back down.

TECHNICALLY, it's not jump-canceled (because the jump animation isn't being canceled), but I, personally, prefer to call it that because people know what you're talking about, and it makes things easier to explain. >_>

And @SB: k. Not being, like, condescending, but that's all I can really say, lol. I'll agree with you. I could continue with this argument, but I'll drop it because it's fairly irrelevant.

 

[joeplicate]

stop talking about tech skill ****ing ***ot fox players

lol i agree

all u foxers are too focused on saying "short hop jc shine oos turnaround bair shine turnaround doubleshinegrab"

or worry about **** like that


i'm glad we have toph to hold it down!!
otherwise it would be all that, and no one to correct them on their lingo!

 

[SKidd]

Aggro or defensive for
Marth?
Falcon?
Falco?
Fox?

thx

 

[joeplicate]

aggro
aggro
aggro
aggro but careful

 

[ArcNatural]

TECHNICALLY, it's not jump-canceled (because the jump animation isn't being canceled), but I, personally, prefer to call it that because people know what you're talking about, and it makes things easier to explain. >_>

I'm going to argue semantics here because I want to be a douche but you are canceling the jump. Just not immediately. Just like with say phantasm shortening you can effectively say your "canceling" 3/4 of the animation to shorten the move or etc. So, I feel like jump-canceling on the whole is doomed to be semantically argued to the end of time.

I have a Fox question. Falco vs Fox. Assuming perfect shl to grab with Falco on Fox's shield. Is it possible to get grabbed before Fox can avoid the grab via spotdodge or roll? Also looking to account for the vulnerable start frames of roll and spotdodge.

I feel like sometimes even though I'm buffering a spotdodge via c-stick on laser to grab attempts I still get grabbed. So either I think I'm inputting the buffer and still getting grabbed, not accounting for stun and trying to buffer c-stick during laser stun (not sure if that works but I think it should), or something I'm unaware of that's going on.

 

[Falcinho]

I'm pretty sure SHL to grab is at least spotdodgeable.

I've even spotdodged/rolled in between shinegrabs against my shield various times lol


edit: I get SHL grabbed sometimes too although i see it coming but i feel like in those cases i just messed up
Lasers produce hilariously low stun.

If the Falco doesnt shoot his laser very low its even fairly easy to grab him before he does, but dont do it when he's in shinerange of course

 

[Sinji]

I always try to dash dance before I shield grab.

 

[mastermoo420]

Aggro or defensive for
Marth?
Falcon?
Falco?
Fox?

Anything you want
Anything you want
Anything you want
Anything you want

However, for Marth and Falco, you should try to be a bit defensive and aggressive respectively, imo. Marth has no projectile so baiting him and lasering and just keeping your cool would be more important. For Falco, getting stuck in his rhythm of lasers and getting shield pressure'd sucks so it'd be better to be a bit more aggressive. Ask others to confirm this. Especially Falco since CunningKitsune says defensive is good for Marth. His guide's a little outdated from what I hear, but a lot of it's still applicable.

And, @ArcNatural: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283788
The .gif shows that the shine comes up when you're airbourne therefore the jump animation is not canceled. Plus, all explanations that come after it say that the shine comes out on the first possible frame when you are airbourne.

In the case of phantasm/illusion, the animation itself is canceled. In the case of the so-called "JC-shines," the jump animation fully goes through and it is on the airbourne frame on which you shine. When you JC-up-smash or JC-grab or JC-up-B, the jumping animation does not fully finish which is why it is called a JC-move.

When you illusion/phantasm cancel, you're illusion canceling or w/e I guess. You don't call it "B-canceling." The reason is because the animation of the action you're doing is canceled; canceling is not named after the action that cancels something else.

 

[Sinji]

Marth: aggressive
Falcon: aggressive
Falco: defensive
Fox: aggressive

for marth i ugrab>uair>uair >bair
for Falcon i drill waveshine>waveshine>upsmash near to the ledge.
for falco i thundaras combo
fox same thing as falco

 

[FoxLisk]

aggro falcon definitely.
aggro falco when you get the opportunity
marth and fox you can play however you want if you're good enough.

reasons: there is no reason not to aggro falcon. there's almost no risk if you do it right, so why let him breathe?
you have to put pressure on falco or he'll just force you into shield and **** you. so take your opportunities
in fox dittos basically one fox is trying to attack and the other is trying to DD grab him, most of the time. you can choose which one to be.
against marth, it depends on his style more than on yours, really. you just have to react to what he's doing.



also: @that armada v calle w match

can i point out something obvious?

calle W did not shoot a single IDJ double laser or FH triple or anything. he was asking to get FH OoS aerial'd. if he had done that just a few times to punish that kind of thing, he would have ***** this supposedly brilliant and genius and awesome plan of armada's. armada just realized Calle W wasn't going to FH laser (or even FH nair out of shield pressure) at all, and went with it. it's not gamechanging.

also: my favourite thing armada did was when calle w jumped in with a laser and armada just ate it and usmashed before falco's nair came out. yummy.

 

[ZoSo]

i'm glad we have toph to hold it down!!
otherwise it would be all that, and no one to correct them on their lingo!

Oh I see how it is.

I'm going to argue semantics here because I want to be a douche but you are canceling the jump. Just not immediately. Just like with say phantasm shortening you can effectively say your "canceling" 3/4 of the animation to shorten the move or etc. So, I feel like jump-canceling on the whole is doomed to be semantically argued to the end of time.

I feel like you're dumb.

Spoiler

jk u no i luv u

I have a Fox question. Falco vs Fox. Assuming perfect shl to grab with Falco on Fox's shield. Is it possible to get grabbed before Fox can avoid the grab via spotdodge or roll? Also looking to account for the vulnerable start frames of roll and spotdodge.

I feel like sometimes even though I'm buffering a spotdodge via c-stick on laser to grab attempts I still get grabbed. So either I think I'm inputting the buffer and still getting grabbed, not accounting for stun and trying to buffer c-stick during laser stun (not sure if that works but I think it should), or something I'm unaware of that's going on.

I'm pretty sure lasers don't have nearly enough shield stun for that to be possible, but I could check next time I'm home if you want. As long as you're holding the C-stick, you will spot dodge/roll/jump on the soonest actionable frame.

Fox is really good at playing both styles (aggressive and defensive). I honestly think you can be successful with either one or some combination thereof, but...

Marth: It can be good to camp him a little bit just to show that you're willing to, but if you play too defensive you'll get cornered easily.

Falcon: There's really no point in camping him since you outprioritize him all over the place and his CC isn't particularly threatening.

Falco: Probably the worst thing you can do against Falco is allow him to set the pace. If you let him do whatever he wants, you'll get stomped if the player is any good.

Fox: No simple answer to that one, really.

The most important thing is to be adaptive. If your opponent is bad against/easily frustrated by camping, do that.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I don't know if this questions been asked before (probably) but here goes

What do you guys do after you PS a laser?

If I'm close i go for the grab, but when i'm far i just wd out and then keep running and shielding again.

 

[Winston]

Why not wd towards him and hit him if he's close or in mid range?

If he's like all the way across the stage you probably won't get a followup off it no matter what you do, haha

 

[Strong Badam]

also: @that armada v calle w match

can i point out something obvious?

calle W did not shoot a single IDJ double laser or FH triple or anything. he was asking to get FH OoS aerial'd. if he had done that just a few times to punish that kind of thing, he would have ***** this supposedly brilliant and genius and awesome plan of armada's. armada just realized Calle W wasn't going to FH laser (or even FH nair out of shield pressure) at all, and went with it. it's not gamechanging.

also: my favourite thing armada did was when calle w jumped in with a laser and armada just ate it and usmashed before falco's nair came out. yummy.

lol. are you just kinda assuming that armada wouldn't have adapted if calle w had played differently than he did? they've played in countless sets; they know eachothers playstyles pretty well by now.

 

[FluxWolf]

i know the whole rolling convo is over but heres a good example of where rolling is used and worked better than any other option would have

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOqp61sfJM0#t=01m48s

its at 1:47 and M2K forward+b's onto the stage, then rolls to the right.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

U guys all suck with fox

 

[mastermoo420]

@Flux: Use this:
#t=XXmXXs
i.e.: #t=01m47s

I usually stay in that format. Obviously, you replace the XX with numbers to indicate the minute and second mark. The video will load a little before that so that it doesn't start EXACTLY on that spot. Oh, and you put that at the end of the youtube link.

 

[FluxWolf]

i ****ed up tinks falco with fox last weekend in tourny.. MM?!?!? what are ya chickennn

perfect thx mastrmoo =D

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

we aint scurrd

 

[Faithkeeper]

I'm trying to pick up fox again...

What are some of the approaches that are safest against shield grabs? I get grabbed too often.

When you nair>shine a shield, what are some of your better options?

Thanks

 

[mastermoo420]

The later the nair, the better. As long as it comes out, lol. I also personally like drill > grab because, unless they buffer a spotdodge or a roll (if it can even come out fast enough past the shieldstun), you'll probably get the grab in. I don't know because I haven't looked frame data and stuff.

Looking at this, though:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278616

Late nair > shine > JC grab (or waveshine) seems the best option. But I don't think people can operate perfectly in practical terms. Either way, you should probably switch things up now and then, whenever is appropriate.

 

[KAOSTAR]

later nair waveshine back is pretty legit.

 

[TemPesT-]

later nair waveshine back is pretty legit.

or fade back with your next aerial out of the shield grab range.

edit: i need a new sig... i luv mine, but i'm disappointed i can't see the whole thing

 

[joeplicate]

The later the nair, the better. As long as it comes out, lol. I also personally like drill > grab because, unless they buffer a spotdodge or a roll (if it can even come out fast enough past the shieldstun), you'll probably get the grab in. I don't know because I haven't looked frame data and stuff.

not really

if you always do late nairs it's ridiculously easy to punish
hell, if you always do MEDIUM nairs it's still easy to upsmash out of shield after your shine. in fact, if you try to do an immediate nair but you aren't fast enough, you can still get upsmashed oos =o

plus drill almost always gets shield DI'd, idk if a grab would work well after it. on top of that, you'd have to place it perfectly and start it at just the right time (more hits = more DIability)

*** frame data
just mess around with stuff until you find what works, and vary it depending on the opponent

 

[RaynEX]

I'm trying to pick up fox again...

What are some of the approaches that are safest against shield grabs? I get grabbed too often.

When you nair>shine a shield, what are some of your better options?

Thanks

As long as you l-cancel, FF and shine correctly, you won't be shield grabbed even if you hit them high on their shield. This goes for both nair and dair.

Late aerials are tailored towards some of the faster oos options. Shieldgrabs are much less of a problem than say, Sheik/Peach's nair, shine oos, and so on. The frame advantage you get from htiting them low on their shield is significant enough to keep you safe from a number of quick oos options that would have otherwise hit you.

Approaching with late nair is great until they start utilting/usmashing/jabbing you before your aerial comes out. Once they realize you aren't SHing into them with an active hitbox, they'll feel less threatened and therefore more inclined to try and interrupt you.

Learn to be accurate with your approaches and use dair. Never susceptible to CCing and always leads to pressure on their shield if you have fundamental Fox tech skill down.

 

[mastermoo420]

@joeplicate: Yeah, but theoretically it's the best option. I mean, Melee is the quintessential example of how "too much of a good thing" can be bad. There's never a time when you can do the same thing over and over again and still win. Unless you're playing against people who are pretty bad. And that's what I go through with my Falcon main friend. .____.

 

[KAOSTAR]

@joeplicate: Yeah, but theoretically it's the best option. I mean, Melee is the quintessential example of how "too much of a good thing" can be bad. There's never a time when you can do the same thing over and over again and still win. Unless you're playing against people who are pretty bad. And that's what I go through with my Falcon main friend. .____.

In melee everything depends.

If you are jumping at them an doing late nairs you are well within their range with no active hitbox. Super late nairs that are predictable will get punished b4 the aerial.

you gotta mix it up. It just depends.

 

[FoxLisk]

lol. are you just kinda assuming that armada wouldn't have adapted if calle w had played differently than he did? they've played in countless sets; they know eachothers playstyles pretty well by now.

that's kind of a dumb thing to say. i'm assuming if calle w had adapted, armada would have also, and then calle w would again, and so on. you're also entirely ignoring the actual point of my post, which is that this is not some sort of amazing oos option that we've been missing, it was good in that match because Calle W didn't do any of the things that would have punished it.

 

[Strong Badam]

i ****ed up tinks falco with fox last weekend in tourny.. MM?!?!? what are ya chickennn

it's too bad you lose to donkey kong players even after u cp to Yoshi's and pick Marth.........................................

that's kind of a dumb thing to say. i'm assuming if calle w had adapted, armada would have also, and then calle w would again, and so on. you're also entirely ignoring the actual point of my post, which is that this is not some sort of amazing oos option that we've been missing, it was good in that match because Calle W didn't do any of the things that would have punished it.

and you missed the whole point of my post. every thing you can do to counter their oos option has a counter.
it's how this game works; top level players will abuse your habits until you pick up on it and change things up, and then they'll start to change things up, most likely better than you can.

 

[FoxLisk]

and you missed the whole point of my post. every thing you can do to counter their oos option has a counter.
it's how this game works; top level players will abuse your habits until you pick up on it and change things up, and then they'll start to change things up, most likely better than you can.

do you even know what my point was? or are you just trying to convince me of a different, unrelated point so you can feel like you won the argument?

 

[RaynEX]

@joeplicate: Yeah, but theoretically it's the best option. I mean, Melee is the quintessential example of how "too much of a good thing" can be bad. There's never a time when you can do the same thing over and over again and still win. Unless you're playing against people who are pretty bad. And that's what I go through with my Falcon main friend. .____.

A few examples of good things that will NEVER be bad:

-Falco's lasers
-Sheik's edge camping (while in the lead)
-CCing at all times with Marth
-Shining whenever possible as Fox


At top level, the good players all have the same goals. You can channel a bit of your own personality through your character by mixing up your move choices in combos, and method of approaching edge-guards, etc. But intrinsically, pros and wannabe pros all want the same thing. Melee is hella fun, but it gets SO repetitive at times. lol

edit: 6K POSTS WOOOOOO BABY

 

[ZoSo]

Melee is the quintessential example of how "too much of a good thing" can be bad. There's never a time when you can do the same thing over and over again and still win.

... are you suggesting that you CAN do the same thing over and over in other fighting games?

-Sheik's edge camping (while in the lead)

It's SO EASY to take the ledge!

 

[#HBC | Mac]

As long as you're holding the C-stick, you will spot dodge/roll/jump on the soonest actionable frame.

No you're wrong and yu suck
it's the second frame

 

[ZoSo]

If you're already shielding (which is what we're talking about), you'll roll/dodge/whatever on the soonest possible frame.

I do suck though. No argument there.

 

[Kanelol]

holy **** ZoSo i just recognized your avatar

I approve

how do you feel about michael cera

 

[Sinji]

shield>grab>uair I think its the 10th frame

 

[RaynEX]

It's SO EASY to take the ledge!

I said edge camping, not edge "stalling".

When she plays near the edge of a stage and CC and shields more than usual, in order to get that one grab.

What are you going to do, approach her? If you **** up ANYTHING, you get back thrown -> lose your stock (at ANY percent).

Even if you land that one hit or one shine or whatever, its not worth it. Its never worth approaching Sheik at the edge because the trade off is ****. You get grabbed you die, she gets hit...chances are she grabs the edge for frames and does it all over again.