Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[voorhese]

i saw mango do an up-throw - shine-bair in one hit. how do you do that?

i play melee pal version

learn how w/ falco, then practice with fox, its not a lot faster (its just you have to hit them with a certain part of your shine b4 you jump cancel into the bair)

 

[Silent Wolf]

what if someone did like, u throw, shine under them, side b (shortened and edge canceled) into uair

 

[RaynEX]

That, plus its a result of terrible DI >_>

Completely false. I hate when people say this about shine bair. The fact of the matter is, if you get uthrow shine baired by Fox, you have to understand that it couldn't have turned out any other way unless you had d.i.ed the shine away in anticipation.

The only way that even works is because a bair is OBVIOUSLY coming so people d.i. it. In doing so they d.i. into the shine and thus the bair. If you were to d.i. away to avoid this, but got baired instead..

now thats what we call "terrible d.i.". Its better to d.i. correctly in anticipation of staple combos and take slightly flashier ones in order to save your stock. This happens alot when you get uthrow'n' near an edge where a bair is most expected.

Fox is too good.

 

[voorhese]

what if someone did like, u throw, shine under them, side b (shortened and edge canceled) into uair

hmmmmmmm ill get right on that ( think it would be better at semi-low damage, so you wouldnt have to jump b4 thes shine, just after it)

on thing i found that may be of use: if you up thrown -> shine and they dont di they usually go behind you
and if they di behind you WD backwards and shine -> they go in front of of you

both of these can be ended w/ upsmash

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

RaynEX:

C-stick overrides control stick with ASDI, right? so what if someone holds away with cstick and up&in w/ control stick? would they get out of the shine?

 

[Tomacawk]

Sveet yeah cstick takes priority for ASDI, but you only get 1 frame of it and that is not enough SDI to get out of the bair range
the only way you're getting out if the fox did it right is massive sdi, and if you **** it up then you probably just died from the bair
just take the shine bair and survival DI it
also THANK YOU RAYNEX it pisses me off too but I don't bother saying it because I'm not well known enough to say **** like that

 

[ChivalRuse]

Kind of random question. But important because I play Falcons a lot.

In Fox vs Falcon, at 0%, is uthrow -> waveshine -> regrab a guaranteed combo (assuming they don't DI the uthrow, of course)?

 

[Tomacawk]

it's not guaranteed afaik but it is very often what happens
uthrow-shine can be kinda screwey in my experiences
i prefer uthrow shine shffl nair or uthrow shine jab grab

 

[voorhese]

hey raynex here is the vids i was talking about
1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWOmkXUHlO4
2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyafQ2_59IM
3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D6uafu21mk

this was my partners first tourney

ill get some singles vids up sometime, doubles vids give you somewhat of an idea, but there is a lot of random stuff that happened in these matches

 

[SCOTU]

Kind of random question. But important because I play Falcons a lot.

In Fox vs Falcon, at 0%, is uthrow -> waveshine -> regrab a guaranteed combo (assuming they don't DI the uthrow, of course)?

if they DI the shine upwards, it doesn't come close to working.

 

[aquanesia]

Is the combo counter in training mode a reliable way to tell if you successfully l-canceled a nair, when you shine after it? And what about with falco's nair or dair?

 

[L__]

^

yes

 

[RaynEX]

RaynEX:

C-stick overrides control stick with ASDI, right? so what if someone holds away with cstick and up&in w/ control stick? would they get out of the shine?

Sveet yeah cstick takes priority for ASDI, but you only get 1 frame of it and that is not enough SDI to get out of the bair range
the only way you're getting out if the fox did it right is massive sdi, and if you **** it up then you probably just died from the bair
just take the shine bair and survival DI it
also THANK YOU RAYNEX it pisses me off too but I don't bother saying it because I'm not well known enough to say **** like that

lol stupid shine bair. Everyone thinks its bad d.i. when in reality, its good d.i. in anticipation for the bair the opponent should have done. imo shine bair is prone to massive failure if you side B or miss or something. baha

Toma got it down. Asdi'ing the shine won't do nearly enough to get you out of bair's range. You'd have to SDI it in advance, and like Toma said, you'd simply die from a bair if you were hit at a high enough percent.

Kind of random question. But important because I play Falcons a lot.

In Fox vs Falcon, at 0%, is uthrow -> waveshine -> regrab a guaranteed combo (assuming they don't DI the uthrow, of course)?

if they DI the shine upwards, it doesn't come close to working.

d.i.ing on Falcon's part is completely unnecessary. Falcon lands on the ground before you can wavedash towards him and grab. His landing animation cancels out any shine stun he was afflicted with while airborne (like any other mid-air shine vs. an opponent). He is thus able to buffer a roll, jump, sidestep or shield before you do something. I'm relatively sure that he can do all this with NEUTRAL d.i.

Adding AWAY d.i. to the scenario (which is what every Falcon should do vs. Fox in general to avoid combos and follow-ups), would make it even easier to thwart uthrow shine stuff. Because he doesn't actually fall down, he can d.i. away and grab you as soon as he lands. Scar has done this to me a couple of times.

Uthrow shine DOES have the potential to work. Especially against Falcons who you see sit in shield alot. Newer players and people who don't understand the physics of the game would definitely fall for it. Any half decent tournament player should and probably would buffer roll out of it.

Bottom line is that uthrow waveshine on Falcon only guarantees you a jab while he is airborne, and nothing else. This is a true combo. If the jab hits you reset positioning and it doesn't really provide you with any true advantage. Beyond putting him and pressure and forcing him to shield for a grab, there isn't much merit in this. Every follow-up that IS NOT jab is a mix-up you'd attempt at your own risk. My advice:

At 0% Falcon can't be CGed, and if he d.i.s away he'll hit the floor before you can usmash. At 0 till about 15-20, just throw him up and re-grab. If he d.i.s away follow him and grab or usmash. Another cool thing to do at 0 is uthrow, follow d.i., techchase with waveshine into another grab/usmash. I think if he neutral d.i.s utilt combos, but I'm not too sure.



edit: I forgot to add something. If they d.i. towards you after the shine the silliest things will combo. From an uthrow waveshine backwards (with Falcon's survival d.i.), I've gotten usmash, utilt and even another shine to combo at varying percents. Don't fish for it though, it isn't too likely to happen.

Is the combo counter in training mode a reliable way to tell if you successfully l-canceled a nair, when you shine after it? And what about with falco's nair or dair?

Yeah, this works. I didn't think about this when I was learning the game. It definitely would have helped.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

like i said, survival DI on the control stick and asdi out with the cstick. I was asking for a test on it, not for guess work.

i think it would get you out, or at least get you a weak(-er) hitbox of the bair

 

[Mogwai]

buffering actually gives you 1 frame of your shield while manually doing it would have none.

my understanding is that your shield must be flashed up for 1 frame in order to spot dodge manually too. I thought that the 1 frame of shield argument was only valid for buffering jumps since you don't have to be in shield first to jump.

 

[Tomacawk]

sveet, it won't work
asdi gets you virtually nowhere, certainly not far enough to get out of a bair range

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

my understanding is that your shield must be flashed up for 1 frame in order to spot dodge manually too. I thought that the 1 frame of shield argument was only valid for buffering jumps since you don't have to be in shield first to jump.

most likely when you do a spot dodge manually you'll have 1+ frames of shield, but its not necessary afaik. Both my wii and my gamecube are broken, so i can't test it.

 

[Mogwai]

I assume Magus or Scotu would know.

 

[Roneblaster]

shout-outs to lovage.

2-0ing forward.

yeah I just found out earlier today.

yeah i fail

 

[ChivalRuse]

Another cool thing to do at 0 is uthrow, follow d.i., techchase with waveshine into another grab/usmash. I think if he neutral d.i.s utilt combos, but I'm not too sure.

Falcon can jump out of Fox's uthrow before he hits the ground at 0% (and any percent, for that matter). So, while tech chasing with the uthrow will work maybe once or twice, they're going to realize what you're doing and not let themselves hit the ground.

So instead of uthrowing at 0% .... bthrow / dthrow tech chase? Lol.

 

[Mogwai]

I like the old school JFox chaingrab at 0 even though it technically doesn't work (that is, respond to no DI from CF @ 0 with waveshine -> regrab). It just looks so flashy and jawesome.

 

[Tero.]

my understanding is that your shield must be flashed up for 1 frame in order to spot dodge manually too.

No.
Spotdodge starts on frame 1, even when doing it manually.

 

[CanISmash]

question about grabs i may have asked but i have a poor memory.

the only advantage of a jc grab over a dash grab is the whole "if you miss" thing? cause that makes me feel like I been lied to my whole life. dash grab has more range and is faster?

 

[Mogwai]

because of how Fox slides with his JC, dash grab has less range. It's also 4 frames slower that a perfect JC grab. so uh... yea... JC grab is also better if you miss cause it ends 9 frames earlier.

verdict: jc your grabs.

 

[ChivalRuse]

because of how Fox slides with his JC, dash grab has less range.

Unless you boost grab, like a champion.

Boost grab sucks.

 

[voorhese]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pghuDvIeOZk


edit: i thougt the doraki instant wallumpwas c-sticking away -> hold forward-> wall jump

so i thought this was new, but its still kool

 

[TresChikon]

That technique is scar jumping

doraki is sweetspotting the edge with your DJ, which is what you're doing in the video.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

false, taht is the doraki wall jump.

 

[TresChikon]

the thing he described is the method to do scar jumping, where you drop off with the c-stick and DI inwards to WJ.

but what he actually doing is doraki jumping.

i was a bit unclear.

 

[Silent Wolf]

dorakis can also be done that way lol..

 

[Pi]

can marth DI(asdi) out of waveshine -> dash jc upsmash?
can any character ?
also does JC grab have as much range as dash/dac grab?

 

[ChivalRuse]

because of how Fox slides with his JC, dash grab has less range. It's also 4 frames slower that a perfect JC grab. so uh... yea... JC grab is also better if you miss cause it ends 9 frames earlier.

verdict: jc your grabs.

There's your answer. Boost grab has more range, but just sucks. JC grab is better.

Don't know about the upsmash thing, though.

 

[Mogwai]

can marth DI(asdi) out of waveshine -> dash jc upsmash?
can any character ?
also does JC grab have as much range as dash/dac grab?

I don't know the answer to the marth question, but all characters that fall down from shine don't get him by waveshine -> dash jc upsmash, as well as Luigi and I believe Ice Climbers with DI away.

 

[Pi]

I don't know the answer to the marth question, but all characters that fall down from shine don't get him by waveshine -> dash jc upsmash, as well as Luigi and I believe Ice Climbers with DI away.

eh, wasn't really considering the chars who fall part of the question
but on that note
assuming they miss the tech
could you catch em on the bounce w/ it? or from the ground?

 

[Mogwai]

yes, missing a shine tech usually results in eating an up smash unless they were thunder's comboing you anyway.

 

[Naota21t]

when u shine outta shield to stop falco's shield pressure are u suppose to shine and still be on the ground or jump a little then shine?

or will either work fine?

also how do most ppl shine outta shield? i jump w/ cstick then shine, but iunno if thats faster then just using normal jump button or not.

 

[Mogwai]

I use Y button

You can't actually shine until you're airborne. If you do it ASAP, you're just slightly airborne and a couple frames after you can Jump out of the shine, you'll land, so if you delay the JC, it's functionally standing if you shine on the 1st airborne frame of your jump (which is how multishining works). Vs. tight Falco shield pressure, your speed is essentially, so you should be trying to be as close to the ground as possible with your shine OoS purely for the sake of speed (cause following up shine OoS as Fox is like, impossible anyway).

 

[Lovage]

i use up

but this is a bad technique because if u angle your shield up (so the dair hits u earlier) its harder to jump really fast

and following up after shine oos isn't that hard, i usually waveland on a platform above me and sometimes i can hit them with bair but usually not. the point is that u hit them on the ground and they're forced to roll, and if you dash up to their face, they're probably gonna shield, so you can continue to pressure them

its very useful

 

[Turazrok]

Couple questions.
How good is ledgehop uair?
When would I use SHDL instead of SH?

 

[SCOTU]

dash grab is actually the same speed as a perfectly done JC grab iirc. (I don't think you can jump and grab on the same frame, but it's been a long time since i've checked). It's still slower on the put-away end though