Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[CT Chia]

lmao I like how the pro-ban video #1 is like "FOMG HE CAN GO AROUND HYRULE BACKWARDS"
well guess ****ing what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miR0FsDAJGg

The fact that people have been trying to prove it wrong and failing shows something. MK takes like 0% doing it (only damage is if he accidentally goes outside the boundries where you take 1% every second), where Snake took a crap load of damage. And that's still not the jump MK did. MK started down at the bottom. It would be easier for the MK to start where your Snake did as he would already have his gliding momentum when he got to the bottom. And not to mention the attack options MK has out of it.

MK's recovery is infinite lol

 

[swordgard]

The fact that people have been trying to prove it wrong and failing shows something. MK takes like 0% doing it (only damage is if he accidentally goes outside the boundries where you take 1% every second), where Snake took a crap load of damage. And that's still not the jump MK did. MK started down at the bottom. It would be easier for the MK to start where your Snake did as he would already have his gliding momentum when he got to the bottom. And not to mention the attack options MK has out of it.

MK's recovery is infinite lol

You know that actually snakes recovery is infinite while meta's is finite. Stop twisting reality with your words ...


Either way, me and avarice and spadefox already refuted pretty much everytime you guys came up with this sort of argument which is" MK has this that and this and that property. Ban him". The only way to know if he is broken is through tourney evidence right now, which you most certainly dont have.


If MK was broken, you would expect him not only to win genesis, but take at least 6 out of top 8 at it because there were so many good players.

 

[The Truth!]

I always thought it was ridiculous that the pro-ban side would use Genesis as "proof" that MK was broken. The only thing Genesis proved was that the best player from the North (Ally), East (M2K), West (Tryant), and South (Dojo), would take spots 1-4. Wow, that was suprising, obviously MK is broken when the best 4 players around the entire nation in Brawl place...in...the...top...4?

Honestly, if you separate the Genesis results into those 4 broad regions you'd probably take notice at how poorly MK did in contrast to his perception.

 

[Sosuke]

I wonder if you people pay attention to what you're saying instead of just trying to defend your points mindlessly.

 

[buenob]

lol while i generally agree with sword, to say "take the top 6 of 8" is pretty stupid... very arbitrary... both sides are looking at the data and saying it supports their claims, and with good backup opinion, so really in the end neither side can really use it (it really is validly being used by both sides)

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I always thought it was ridiculous that the pro-ban side would use Genesis as "proof" that MK was broken. The only thing Genesis proved was that the best player from the North (Ally), East (M2K), West (Tryant), and South (Dojo), would take spots 1-4. Wow, that was suprising, obviously MK is broken when the best 4 players around the entire nation in Brawl place...in...the...top...4?

Honestly, if you separate the Genesis results into those 4 broad regions you'd probably take notice at how poorly MK did in contrast to his perception.

I'm used to picking Wario at Genesis, 2-0ing my entire bracket, and then losing 2-0 to two MK's (a matchup I know better than almost ANYONE) and getting 7th....while Ally starts on the OTHER side of the bracket, 2-0s everyone, and doesnt run into an MK....until winners finals...where he loses... and is garunteed third already >_<.

Whats amusing to me is that people claim that snake is a Metaknight counter when

Razer got 9th...the only snake besides ally in the top 12, and then dsf placing 17, and he was mostly MK anyway.

Razer lost to Havok, a socal meta knight in winners and then ADHD in losers.

People say that diddy counters MK:

ADHD lost to Tyrant and AlphaZealot lost to Dojo

People say that Wario goes even with MK:

I lost to both Tyrant and Dojo

Atomsk gets people to believe that DDD and MK are even:

He lost to Havok

DEHF is one of the top MK killers in the country...

and yet he was knocked out of the tournament by Dojo after Dojo figured the matchup out.

People point out that the MK's didn't even dominate the top placings, and that they lost to players who could simply beat MK

Judge lost to Dojo and M2k

Dojo lost to DEHF and Tyrant

Tyrant lost to Ally and M2k

Teba lost to Judge and C@tnip

So ADHD, DEHF and Ally are the only people knocking out MKs (and then, aside from Ally, actually losing to them later on), so MK did poorly because he was knocking himself out the entire time?

Bulls***

 

[swordgard]

lol while i generally agree with sword, to say "take the top 6 of 8" is pretty stupid... very arbitrary... both sides are looking at the data and saying it supports their claims, and with good backup opinion, so really in the end neither side can really use it (it really is validly being used by both sides)

No, the only reason the ban something is forced overcentralization. This means either you pick up MK or cannot compete at high level in any way. For this to be true

A) MK must win, or else you can still compete
B) Take at least 50%+1 placing of the top spots, in genesis with a tourney so big where the skill level is the highest you would expect it to be even more as if MK truly makes competition unviable, then at such a tourney you would expect more MKs that break the system and take top 8.

 

[The Truth!]

I see nothing surprising about those results aside from maybe Havok beating Razor. Honestly thats the only thing I could consider an upset, and even that isnt really that bad of an upset. Every other match fell the way it would be expected to fall.

Otherwise you werent paying attention to what I was saying. All of these people that got knocked out by "MK's", they were losing to people who were simply better then them. Tyrant and Dojo are better then fiction. Tyrant and Dojo are better then ADHD and AZ respectively. Dojo is better then DEHF. These arent scrub MK players, these are 3 of the 4 nations best players, of course theyre going to **** the bracket and knock everyone else out of the tournament. Ally did the same thing on his side of the bracket.

Also it only makes sense that ally would be in a separate part of the bracket away from the other best players that he would meet in the last round or two. He is very clearly in the nations (+ canada) top 2, and I believe has proven he is better then both tyrant and dojo outside Genesis. That fiction would try to compare himself to Ally and imply that Ally would have lost if he had the tough bracket fiction did is very egotistical, and in contrast to what Ally has proven otherwise. Ally deserved the bracket he got. And honestly, if MK really was so "overused" then shouldn't he have easily come across an MK well before the finals? And do you honestly think he would have lost to them?

 

[ledhead]

I find it a bit rediculous that both sides are trying to use the results of one tournament as proof. In all science, one set of data is NEVER enough to make a definitive point.

But I believe MK should be banned. The pro-ban's argument is really more thought out than the anti-ban's, which to me sounded like "We who don't want him to be banned all main him, and we don't want to admit that our character is over-centralizing and crushing the metagame, so we set crazy criteria for basic terms so that you can't ban him by our definition."

I also believe that Brawl and Melee cannot be compared, since Melee had ATs. Brawl has almost none, and comparing their metagames is stupid because they're so different. In Melee, tech skill could overcome a matchup and the better player had a noticeable advantage. Now, its boiled down to "you can only progress in most tournaments if you can defeat MK, and the easiest and most practical way to do that is to pick MK. It creates a loop that cannot end unless MK is removed from the metagame.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I see nothing surprising about those results aside from maybe Havok beating Razor. Honestly thats the only thing I could consider an upset, and even that isnt really that bad of an upset. Every other match fell the way it would be expected to fall.

Ok, I'll bite.

Otherwise you werent paying attention to what I was saying. All of these people that got knocked out by "MK's", they were losing to people who were simply better then them. Tyrant and Dojo are better then fiction. Tyrant and Dojo are better then ADHD and AZ respectively. Dojo is better then DEHF. These arent scrub MK players, these are 3 of the 4 nations best players, of course theyre going to **** the bracket and knock everyone else out of the tournament. Ally did the same thing on his side of the bracket.

It doesn't refute the fact that those MK didn't play the Mk killers, and that they too wouldn't have beaten ADHD or DEHF. It's hpothetical, so no. You can't just claim one place/reigon is bettter than another and say LOL the MK players are just better.

Also it only makes sense that ally would be in a separate part of the bracket away from the other best players that he would meet in the last round or two. He is very clearly in the nations (+ canada) top 2, and I believe has proven he is better then both tyrant and dojo outside Genesis. That fiction would try to compare himself to Ally and imply that Ally would have lost if he had the tough bracket fiction did is very egotistical, and in contrast to what Ally has proven otherwise. Ally deserved the bracket he got. And honestly, if MK really was so "overused" then shouldn't he have easily come across an MK well before the finals? And do you honestly think he would have lost to them?

Maybe Fiction is overhyping himself as you claim, but again, you can't really prove that because it's hypothetical. As you said, you believe. Its not a fact. Tyrant took a game off Ally in losers, so it's not impossible (though IMO unlikley IMO) that he couldn't have won.
Also, consider this:


If you had really paid attention, DEHF, won the first time against Dojo, then Dojo came back and won the 2nd time, so saying he wouldn't win is BS, since he already did.

ADHD neraly beat Tyrant on brinstar, FYI. You are saying they would have auto lost on baseless grounds, seeing as how the sets went. LOL just a better player. Obviously no one other than Ally and the 3 top MK have any chance ever right?

EDIT: before I make myself into an idiot, I can't prove that the MK would have beaten them either. But the bracket ended up in such a way that it couldn't be proven, because the top MK all had to play each other, and the top others barley got to play the top MKs.

 

[Masmasher@]

No pro ban was long winded but basically they said
"we want metaknight gone. lets ignore crteria thats been working for fighting games for the last decade and make some half hashed crieria of our own. "lets ignore geniesis and apex. Heck even the middle man arguement which is not usable is flawed. There are tournaments were MK doesnt win.
Personally if i was a member of pro an i would be insulted. Thats criteria i couldve made up lol. He doesnt over centralize, He clearly isnt broken.
They didnt even try to debunk the original criteria.

 

[East]

You know that actually snakes recovery is infinite while meta's is finite. Stop twisting reality with your words ...

This is laughable.... You really can't just say "Oh, Snake can get around it too!?" When he has to put himself in a situation where 2/3 hits will kill him. Metaknight gets around at zero, Snake has to nearly become a martyr to do so...

 

[Red Arremer]

It's true, though - Meta Knight, although covering a huge distance, has a recovery that can end. And he's lightweighted.
Snake is heavyweight and can recover any distance he wants, even though he has to take damage.

Not saying that Meta Knight's recovery is bad or so - just chipping that in.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Why is situational recovery on a banned stage even being talked about?

lol.

 

[UberMario]

This is laughable.... You really can't just say "Oh, Snake can get around it too!?" When he has to put himself in a situation where 2/3 hits will kill him. Metaknight gets around at zero, Snake has to nearly become a martyr to do so...

True, but you're more likely to successfully spike Kirby/Meta-Knight then you are Snake.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

True, but you're more likely to successfully spike Kirby/Meta-Knight then you are Snake.

WAT?

10wats

 

[etecoon]

True, but you're more likely to successfully spike Kirby/Meta-Knight then you are Snake.

yeah, because snake isn't vulnerable to being edge guarded when he takes an eternity to drop C4 and detonate it on himself nor is it like the trajectory isn't completely predictable or anything

oh wait.

 

[Sosuke]

Why is situational recovery on a banned stage even being talked about?

lol.

Because people want to use it to help their argument.
Are you surprised by this? It's what all of you people are doing.




In what world does Snake have an infinite recovery? lmao

 

[Masmasher@]

This just got more stupid

 

[The Truth!]

Led whats ridiculous is that people are still making their pro/anti ban arguments when the debate is essentially over. The only reason I bring up Genesis is because throughout the debate it bugged me that the pro-ban side attempted to use it as proof, Im not even saying its something the anti-ban side can claim.

Anyways, I'm not trying to claim one region to be better then another, just specific players. It just so happens that each is from a separate region. Yes its possible to disagree, but even if we narrow it to just those who attended Genesis I dont think many would disagree that of those players M2K and Ally were the first or second best players there, Tyrant a solid third and Dojo a questionable 4th. They just so happened to place almost exactly as expected. Which is my my main point, Im not trying to say DEHF couldnt beat Dojo or Tyrant couldnt beat MK. Im saying that the results for Genesis were very predictable if you were to just look at the names.

 

[Red Arremer]

In what world does Snake have an infinite recovery? lmao

In what world does Meta Knight have an infinite recovery? :V

 

[Sosuke]

He doesn't. Did I say that?

Snake doesn't either.



Wait, actually, do glides ever end? I guess you could consider them infinite of they don't end...
But still, it doesn't matter.

 

[Red Arremer]

Well of course. But Snake, theoretically, can cover more distance than Meta Knight.

 

[The Truth!]

Why is situational recovery on a banned stage even being talked about?

lol.

seriously.

 

[Sosuke]

Spadefox, I thought you would be mature enough as to not say something like that. :/

Even if it's joking, come on. It's getting annoying how everyone says that.


"X character can do Y better then MK. Ban X character."

 

[Red Arremer]

Where did I ask to ban Snake?
I just said that Meta Knight doesn't have an Infinite recovery, and Snake's would theoretically cover more distance.

 

[Sosuke]

... I misread or imagined it... o_O

My bad... >_>;
*awkwardness*

 

[Exceladon City]

Even though I find MK to be boring and more abundant than Kakuna in Viridian Forest, I have half a mind to just pick him since the game is eventually gonna become MK anyway, save for the few Snake players and Ally. Let's face it...he's not getting banned, it's pretty effin hopeless.

 

[Underload]

The individual state / region / city should be able to decide if MK is banned in their tournaments or not.

Edn.

 

[UberMario]

Even though I find MK to be boring and more abundant than Kakuna in Viridian Forest, I have half a mind to just pick him since the game is eventually gonna become MK anyway, save for the few Snake players and Ally. Let's face it...he's not getting banned, it's pretty effin hopeless.

That will never happen. There will always be people that play their main because they actually like them.

 

[Red Arremer]

The individual state / region / city should be able to decide if MK is banned in their tournaments or not.

Edn.

The TO can decide anything. If you want to host an MK-banned event, do so. If you want to allow MK, do so.
The SBR ruleset is only suggestions. It's up to you to decide whether or not you want to follow it completely or alter it to what you think is best.

 

[BBQTV]

yeah sasukebowser is back [not sarcastic]

 

[Alus]

Why is situational recovery on a banned stage even being talked about?

lol.

This thread is like a addicting drug...

Its full of stupid... but people keep coming back to it...

 

[BBQTV]

This thread is like a addicting drug...

Its full of stupid... but people keep coming back to it...

thats true its why i like this thread why not.

 

[CRASHiC]

Can I ask where the 66% number for metaknight to be banned came from?
Was this just someone talking and theorizing, because I thought this was more about adding a public vote to the SBR vote, which if I heard correctly, pro-ban needed 57 point something to tip the scale in pro bans favor.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Even though I find MK to be boring and more abundant than Kakuna in Viridian Forest, I have half a mind to just pick him since the game is eventually gonna become MK anyway, save for the few Snake players and Ally. Let's face it...he's not getting banned, it's pretty effin hopeless.

Ive actually begun the process of shifting from sonic/ddd/lucario to MK/ICs already

That will never happen. There will always be people that play their main because they actually like them.

And those people will proceed to get snuffed out by people like me...

 

[Exceladon City]

Ive actually begun the process of shifting from sonic/ddd/lucario to MK/ICs already

And it begins. Welcome to the new world order. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Juqm94sUV_E

 

[Dark 3nergy]

This thread is like a addicting drug...

Its full of stupid... but people keep coming back to it...

you cant blame people for wanting to get this **** out of their system

you can either post a truly stupid comment as quoted above.. or you can, you know, NOT post at all

thanks

 

[Red Arremer]

Can I ask where the 66% number for metaknight to be banned came from?
Was this just someone talking and theorizing, because I thought this was more about adding a public vote to the SBR vote, which if I heard correctly, pro-ban needed 57 point something to tip the scale in pro bans favor.

Yes, the public poll is only adding votes, and yes, the 2/3 majority is needed - inside the SBR.
Where you got those digits from (those 57.x), I don't know. Whoever it was was either lying or a person with wrong information. In any case, direct digits are a leak and leaks are not allowed.

 

[Kewkky]

I loathe the fact that some anti-bans are still saying pro-bans think MK is broken. If they're still in poll #3, then they should shut up, open their minds, and learn that they have refuted nothing, and whatever they think they've contributed is nothing more than bupkis.

Get your facts straight and stay up-to-date if you want to bait flames, whoever you guys are (not pointing to the anti-ban side in a whole, just a select few).