Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[JUDGE]

I'm curious... How many member are there in the SBR?

no!! i would say at least 150^^

 

[Llumys]

I've been following this thread since the first couple dozen posts, and no progress has been made.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

What the hell are you talking about? General public means everyone

E v e r y o n e

Noobs, scrubs, pros, amateurs, casuals, SBR members. Everyone. We vote democratically or not at all.

Our democratic process involves thee public voting for officials to make decisions. The public elects officials and officials make the decisions. The public does not make the decisions.

Do you really not see how you are not only not making sense in the first place, but vehemently denying that you said what you said, despite the fact that I just quoted it to your face?

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'm curious... How many member are there in the SBR?

Too many.

 

[Deleted member]

Our democratic process involves thee public voting for officials to make decisions. The public elects officials and officials make the decisions. The public does not make the decisions.

Do you really not see how you are not only not making sense in the first place, but vehemently denying that you said what you said, despite the fact that I just quoted it to your face?

Ugh you're such a nitpicking moron

Definitions of democracy on the Web:

the political orientation of those who favor government by the people or by their elected representatives

majority rule: the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group

 

[JUDGE]

Just for the sake of saying it, if Metaknight is banned, I think the online community here has agreed that he'll still be allowed in online tournaments simply because, of the lag, he's not the best character and characters like Snake legitimately counter him online. May not be any consolation to most of you but it's something to think about. *shamelessly promotes his own tournaments*

yeah i agree^^
i think so too,mk isn't that good in online matches because of the lags

 

[thrillagorilla]

Our democratic process involves thee public voting for officials to make decisions. The public elects officials and officials make the decisions. The public does not make the decisions.

Do you really not see how you are not only not making sense in the first place, but vehemently denying that you said what you said, despite the fact that I just quoted it to your face?

That's a republic, not a democracy fyi.

 

[•Col•]

I think about 100

no!! i would say at least 150^^

Too many.

.................... <_<

Wish I could get a direct answer.

Spoiler

No offense.

 

[fkacyan]

I feel this needs to be reposted:

You're telling me - you just conclusively called the system terribly wrong without showing any evidence or proving otherwise. That's begging the question, sir. (One of the more commonly used fallacies! I'm a philosophy major, bro.)

I'm not saying democracy is perfect. No system is. Yet with a debate this polarized, allowing everyone's input is necessary. Otherwise, what is the point of riling us all up in this silly thread? What's the point of tantalizing us with the poll?

The SBR wants to see public opinion. While I commend them for AT LEAST doing that, they should relinquish the power of this matter over to the people who will be affected by it most - the typical tournament player.

The issue within the system has been mentioned more than once: Uneducated, uninformed people voting. Your reasoning for this being allowed here is this:

That doesn't matter. Elections world wide have uninformed people participating in them. That just means advocates for either side needs to step their game up.

That is to say, it's fine here because American democracy uses it. No! Fallacy! Wrong wrong wrong! And I wasn't begging the question, btw.

On another note, I'm not your bro.

 

[rel12]

80% of the No's are Mk mains :D

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Ugh you're such a nitpicking moron

Definitions of democracy on the Web:

the political orientation of those who favor government by the people or by their elected representatives

majority rule: the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group

See the part of your quote that's in red? That's how it actually works. A democratic republic. "true democracy" doesn't work and isn't employed anywhere, because there are too many morons who can't be trusted to make real decisions. Such as in this poll.

That's a republic, not a democracy fyi.

Again... it's a democratic republic, such as is used in the United States. No nation has a "true democracy".


Here's a fun little map that shows the nations that are the "most democratic", the highest possible score is a 9.5 out of 10 (with the darkest blue being least democratic and the lightest blue being the most democratic), since no nation can succeed with a "true democracy".

 

[JUDGE]

.................... <_<

Wish I could get a direct answer.

Spoiler

No offense.

ok than let's say 120 ok???

 

[JUDGE]

See the part of your quote that's in red? That's how it actually works. A democratic republic. "true democracy" doesn't work and isn't employed anywhere, because there are too many morons who can't be trusted to make real decisions. Such as in this poll.




Again... it's a democratic republic, such as is used in the United States. No nation has a "true democracy".


Here's a fun little map that shows the nations that are the "most democratic", the highest possible score is a 9.5, since no nation can succeed with a "true democracy".

why the are you guys talking about politics????
i thought, this is a mk ban or not thread

 

[Deleted member]

Thiocyanide - you are wrong. If you intend to include everyone, ie, democracy, you also include people who are uninformed. I am not saying "look at the States! They include idiots, we should too!" It goes hand in hand with democracy. Which is a shame - it's a stigma that will always haunt democracy - yes, but it is the fairest and only way to achieve any sort of true majority rule. I acknowledge the uninformed, yet I still pull for a fair and open vote.

MusicMan, we are not a country. Therefore, we default to the former option - government by the people. Currently, the SBR governs the way competitive Smash is played, which is not democratic. We don't elect them.

Good game, thanks for playing.

Judge, read the posts and you'll see we're debating how the choice will be decided or not. That's entirely relevant.

 

[SkylerOcon]

It would be ridiculous for the SBR to not automatically go with whatever the final poll results end up as. As uninformed as some voters may be, the people voting here are the typical tourney goer, and they should not be overridden by a group of 100-or-so players that have their own opinions (and possibly bias). As much as some SBR members like to deny it, the SBR basically dictates the community - players will always go to an SBR rules tourney rather than a non-SBR tourney.

If the SBR ignores the common smasher in this final poll, then the wrong people have been trusted with SBR membership. This poll is the final poll, and the last chance to see the community's opinion. It doesn't matter what the top players think, in this case - it matters what the average player thinks. The player you're most likely to see at a tournament. If all of them get frustrated and leave, there will be no more Brawl competitive scene anymore.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

This debate has polarized the entire website. Go into any regional zone thread and they're discussing it.

This means the SBR should be seen as the United Nations. Yes, they're knowledgeable, but they shouldn't make the ultimate decision on something so clearly divided. Let the poll decide once and for all.

A vote for the ban is a vote for democracy.

PacWest isn't since we're all basically Melee but I see what you're getting at lol

 

[Fatmanonice]

.................... <_<

Wish I could get a direct answer.

Spoiler

No offense.

That's the thing, nobody really knows. If you're really curious, I'd suggest PMing Hylian or Alphazealot considering those are the two guys who appoint them now.

Add in: Nice screen stretch Musicman... >_>;

 

[Melomaniacal]

Remember when I said bringing up politics was a bad idea?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

why the are you guys talking about politics????
i thought, this is a mk ban or not thread

I'm not talking about politics-- I'm talking about the democratic system. He suggested that we use a "fully democratic poll", which is ******** and absurd.

I was merely stating that not only would that not work, but the "best system" of "true democracy" that he suggested that we use doesn't even exist or work in real practice.





This is why it is ignorant and naive to assume that making this poll the "final decision" is a good idea.


You'd have to have no idea what you are talking about to say such a thing.

 

[Deleted member]

It would be ridiculous for the SBR to not automatically go with whatever the final poll results end up as. As uninformed as some voters may be, the people voting here are the typical tourney goer, and they should not be overridden by a group of 100-or-so players that have their own opinions (and possibly bias). As much as some SBR members like to deny it, the SBR basically dictates the community - players will always go to an SBR rules tourney rather than a non-SBR tourney.

If the SBR ignores the common smasher in this final poll, then the wrong people have been trusted with SBR membership. This poll is the final poll, and the last chance to see the community's opinion. It doesn't matter what the top players think, in this case - it matters what the average player thinks. The player you're most likely to see at a tournament. If all of them get frustrated and leave, there will be no more Brawl competitive scene anymore.

I think I love you.

 

[fkacyan]

Thiocyanide - you are wrong. If you intend to include everyone, ie, democracy, you also include people who are uninformed. I am not saying "look at the States! They include idiots, we should too!" It goes hand in hand with democracy. Which is a shame - it's a stigma that will always haunt democracy - yes, but it is the fairest and only way to achieve any sort of true majority rule. I acknowledge the uninformed, yet I still pull for a fair and open vote.

I don't feel everybody should be included, as it is an extremely stupid thing to do.

players will always go to an SBR rules tourney rather than a non-SBR tourney.

NJ has been using its own stageset / whatever rules it feels the situation requires for ages and our average attendance trends upwards. Don't state something like this without knowledge of all the facts. You might want to take into account that AiB doesn't really reference the SBR at all, and many many users only check tourneys via that site.

 

[Melomaniacal]

the people voting here are the typical tourney goer

I just clicked 10 random named in the poll results, and got 7 people who joined smashboards within the last 3 months, and have under 30 posts. I highly doubt these people have ever been to a legitimate tournament, and I highly doubt a lot of the people voting have.

 

[JUDGE]

It would be ridiculous for the SBR to not automatically go with whatever the final poll results end up as. As uninformed as some voters may be, the people voting here are the typical tourney goer, and they should not be overridden by a group of 100-or-so players that have their own opinions (and possibly bias). As much as some SBR members like to deny it, the SBR basically dictates the community - players will always go to an SBR rules tourney rather than a non-SBR tourney.

If the SBR ignores the common smasher in this final poll, then the wrong people have been trusted with SBR membership. This poll is the final poll, and the last chance to see the community's opinion. It doesn't matter what the top players think, in this case - it matters what the average player thinks. The player you're most likely to see at a tournament. If all of them get frustrated and leave, there will be no more Brawl competitive scene anymore.

hmmmm.......wow skyler^^
didn't see that from this angle yet^^ you are right

it's the final poll nao and if the community ignore the voices of the average players, than it might be really happen that there will be no more brawl competitive scene anymore...........................................

 

[Deleted member]

I don't feel everybody should be included, as it is an extremely stupid thing to do.

Yeah, this sort of thinking is incredibly, horribly, and basically ****ed-up backwards. Fairness implies everyone. Community opinion. Only tyrants try to silence parts of the community's collective opinion.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

It would be ridiculous for the SBR to not automatically go with whatever the final poll results end up as. As uninformed as some voters may be, the people voting here are the typical tourney goer, and they should not be overridden by a group of 100-or-so players that have their own opinions (and possibly bias). As much as some SBR members like to deny it, the SBR basically dictates the community - players will always go to an SBR rules tourney rather than a non-SBR tourney.

If the SBR ignores the common smasher in this final poll, then the wrong people have been trusted with SBR membership. This poll is the final poll, and the last chance to see the community's opinion. It doesn't matter what the top players think, in this case - it matters what the average player thinks. The player you're most likely to see at a tournament. If all of them get frustrated and leave, there will be no more Brawl competitive scene anymore.

Wrong. If the SBR allows the non-competitive players to determine the rules of competition, competition will cease to exist because it WON'T BE COMPETITIVE.

If you don't want to play smash competitively, fine. Ban Metaknight and play the game however you want. ...but for COMPETITIVE PLAY, there is no place for a ban.

I don't feel everybody should be included, as it is an extremely stupid thing to do.

Thank you. Anyone who needs further explanation on why this is a bad idea should find the nearest middle school and take a basic government / economics course.


And Delorted1, we're not silencing anyone. People are free to say what they want-- thankfully, they can't infect the populace with their stupid ideas because they don't count for anything. People are on average STUPID. Denying that fact under the flag of "freedom and fairness" makes you one of them.

 

[thrillagorilla]

It would be ridiculous for the SBR to not automatically go with whatever the final poll results end up as. As uninformed as some voters may be, the people voting here are the typical tourney goer, and they should not be overridden by a group of 100-or-so players that have their own opinions (and possibly bias). As much as some SBR members like to deny it, the SBR basically dictates the community - players will always go to an SBR rules tourney rather than a non-SBR tourney.

If the SBR ignores the common smasher in this final poll, then the wrong people have been trusted with SBR membership. This poll is the final poll, and the last chance to see the community's opinion. It doesn't matter what the top players think, in this case - it matters what the average player thinks. The player you're most likely to see at a tournament. If all of them get frustrated and leave, there will be no more Brawl competitive scene anymore.

I've already argued why personal opinion (which is what a good number of people who have voted in this poll have based their vote upon if their posts are any indication) should not be considered when dealing with the ban. I did it when I refuted the opening pro-ban argument, which you can find here.

Edit: In the event that massive amounts of people quit brawl, then the rule-set can be called faulty. I haven't seen any evidence of it posted up until this point though. Also, I can sympathize, but I can't say with a clear conscience that a ban would need to occur for this kind of reason.

 

[Deleted member]

I just clicked 10 random named in the poll results, and got 7 people who joined smashboards within the last 3 months, and have under 30 posts. I highly doubt these people have ever been to a legitimate tournament, and I highly doubt a lot of the people voting have.

Brawl came out a year and a bit ago - it's not a big deal if people with 09 join dates want to participate. They have a right to.

 

[fkacyan]

Yeah, this sort of thinking is incredibly, horribly, and basically ****ed-up backwards. Fairness implies everyone. Community opinion. Only tyrants try to silence parts of the community's collective opinion.

Whoa, I almost said "Reality isn't fair." Almost used a fallacy. Close one.

I see no reason to be fair about this at all. Treating everybody equally assumes we all have an equal stake in this, but this isn't a safe assumption to make about the voterbase here. Many don't go to tourneys, and thus this can't and shouldn't apply to them.

 

[Deleted member]

Wrong. If the SBR allows the non-competitive players to determine the rules of competition, competition will cease to exist because it WON'T BE COMPETITIVE.

You seem to think that the SBR is infallible in constructing a competitive game...

Thiocyanide, it doesn't matter jack **** if some voters don't go to tournaments. They still have a right to vote - you can't dismiss them entirely as they may come out to tournaments later. Not that it even matters - they're still people with opinions that count on this decisive matter

 

[MorphedChaos]

I am Pro-ban MK. Last poll I voted that I was not sure, but I gave it lots of thought and decided MK is ban-worthy. Now, I may not be Dojo, or DMG or any really amazing people, but I do win local tournies so I am not too far off from them. My views on MK being banned may or may not be agreeable to others, but they make sense where history is concerned. I will just say I pretty much agree with pretty much everything thats on the Pro-ban side, so I'll just pick apart the Anti-ban side.

Argument #1: Metaknight is not broken.

Right... And how is he not broken? He can dodge any move in the game if he wanted with his Dimensional cape, I know I do it if I play MK to dodge say.... A waft or just to get behind someone while having the combination of an Invincibility star and a cloaking device. That right there is one reason why he is broken, being able to nullify every move in the game without having any possible counter. Now, this may be Wifi, but If I get sudden death with someone on Wifi, I just IDC until they die from bomb-ombs dropping. How was that fair to the other person who does not have invincibility on-demand? In a tourny, I can't IDC, but I could EDC to dodge a move or get anywhere I want on the stage without any risk.

Now as for the ledge-grab rule. This was instituted due to MK's planking, and he can still go around the rule with all his jumps, his glide, and his up-b which automatically goes into a glide! Now, which characters can actually harm MK when he is planking? Not many, and even with a bike thrown at him, MK can just dodge it with all his jumps then continue planking. Only if the ledge grab rule was say.... 20 or something could you actually cause MK to stop planking, but then he could still dominate people due to his moveset. But then if it was 20, that is 1 ledge grab every 24 seconds to be DQed, which can actually happen especially on Norfair. And this could be abused so much by people like Wario or Pit or even MK himself to just DQ their opponent due to forcing them to decide to grab the ledge, or die.

Now, about MK's moveset. He has basically every tool in his box besides a projectile, but with on-demand invincibility, he can just go right next to the projectile spammer and destroy them. Now for what he has that no other character has, which pretty much make him broken...
-His sword slashes have good range, and share the same property as Laser attacks. (IE, they do not cling, and go through everything that's not disjointed or laser themselves.).
What this means is that MK already has an advantage over many characters due to his sword slashes, which are also disjointed, to pretty much always beat out other character moves unless the other character's move has longer range and is disjointed/projectile.
-He has the dimensional cape.
This is basically invincibility on-demand when he wants it, as well as a "go anywhere on the stage that you want without being able to be hit. You can even go behind someone through their most powerful attack and not be touched." As well as the fact that MK moves faster in his cape then he does while running, and if you don't attack with it, the cape has very little downtime.
-Very little lag
This is addressed heavily in Brawl+ by changing the lag on his attacks, MK's attacks have very little lag and can be stringed pretty much seamlessly. (The Fsmash is the exception.) He can even hasten his Ftilt by doing a Dtilt first. Not to mention his kill moves, the Dsmash and Shuttle loop, have very little start up lag, and the shuttle loop even has invincibility frames!. The shuttle loop has ending lag in the form of landing, but the Dsmash doesn't.

There is more that could be said here possibly, but then I couldn't disprove the other arguments for anti-ban, could I?


Argument #2: Metaknight does not dominate the metagame.

1 Meta Knight (51 top8, 38 top4, 21 top2, 15 wins) - 1223.9
2 Snake (31 top8, 12 top4, 8 top2, 14 wins) - 753.9

A Rank «Overused» 24.83%
3 Falco (14 top8, 7 top4, 5 top2, 2 wins) - 207.1 - 4
4 Diddy Kong (18 top8, 8 top4, 6 top2, 2 wins) - 184.5 - 3
5 Ice Climbers (8 top8, 8 top4, 7 top2, 4 wins) - 165.9 - 8
6 Marth (11 top8, 9 top4, 1 top2, 10 wins) - 144.2 - 7
7 Wario (17 top8, 6 top4, 3 top2, 2 wins) - 140.8 - 9
8 ROB (7 top8, 11 top4, 0 top2, 6 wins) - 128.8 - 11

B Rank «Standard» 15.97%
9 Kirby (11 top8, 7 top4, 1 top2, 3 wins) - 102.4 - 15
10 King Dedede (10 top8, 6 top4, 5 top2, 4 wins) - 102.3 - 6
11 Pikachu (10 top8, 4 top4, 1 top2, 1 win) - 96.2 - 8

Alright, now.... If we exclude Snake, MK's score pretty much equals adding Falco through Pikachu scores together. If we include Snake, MK's score equals Snake through Ice climbers added together. Note, that this is with pretty much a huge Softban on the EC (Or what feels like, as the locals I go to, there is ever only one or two MKs, and they get picked on heavily for playing MK.)

MK dominates the Metagame when it just comes to score, Snake comes close, but this is mostly due to MK knocking Snake's counters off the table. (D3 for example, or Pikachu.)

Also, when you talk about matchups for any character, the most discussion always goes into how to beat MK due to him being so dominant. I know I spent a good 40 minutes trying to think of ways to show how MK vs Wario was even in my guide, and now I'm thinking its 52.5/47.5 in MK's favor vs Wario. And even with spending the most time on the MK matchup, I still missed a few things.

And even if statistics doesn't persuade you, think of this. People who play MK as a main or have MK as a secondary are picked on in my area for playing 'Mr. Broken', is that the environment you want to eventually play in? Also think, it discourages some new players from joining the Smash community. That is pretty serious from a psychological standpoint.


Argument #3: The game is still growing and evolving.

We have Brawl+, EBrawl, and may other 'hacked' versions of Brawl. We have pretty much every scrap of data for each character. We can edit and change everything in brawl besides Subspace and Models, and Models is being worked on and almost finished. Brawl has been hacked so much that it soon will be the next MUGEN, so saying we don't know some things about the game is flawed. Maybe we can learn a few glitches here and there, but the major stuff has already been learned.

Also... A little history lesson. France could have stopped WW2 from even happening had they attacked Germany when Germany took the dividing line between France and Germany, making the holocaust never happen. But France did nothing and watched. Germany then took over Poland, and then soon Blitzkrieged France, and if it wasn't for the English Channel, they would have taken over Britain. See where a 'wait and see' attitude did for mankind? It allowed Hitler to slaughter countless innocents in the holocaust all because France and Britain, as well as the rest of Europe has a 'wait and see' attitude. Now, if the US hadn't made the first atomic bomb or Germany hadn't surrendered, Hitler would've nuked the rest of the world, all because people had a 'wait and see' attitude.

The game has been out for a year and this has still been a constant problem. I know for a fact that many people would enjoy the game more if MK was gone. I know I would, because then I could have some fun with Ganondorf, or Bowser, or Mario, or other characters that stand no chance vs MK. (Sure those characters aren't that good vs D3, but D3 gets slaughtered by IC, Falco, Pika, Zelda, and other characters. MK goes even with MK, thats it.)


Argument #4: Implying that Metaknight breaks the counterpick system also implies that Brawl is a game based on counterpicking.

This is such a stupid argument. Counterpicking to the degree that Brawl has it makes it a very balanced game. If you want a game where everyone is the same, go play Runescape, where you control a grey blob and fight other grey blobs who are the same, just with maybe a small difference here and there. That is really boring.

Also, if you wish to make that claim, then I can say that Brawl is a game that hates items. I like playing with items, yet it took until a few months ago or about to make ISP. Note, two different tournaments that are based around having items and not having items, such a huge part of the game. Its a poor claim to make.

Maybe I can't give much insight here as say.... Praxis could, but hey, thats what I think.

Argument #5: Metaknight’s extraneous circumstances are already resolved.


They have not been resolved, and actually have strengthened the pro-ban argument. IDC may be banned, but EDC is an amazing ability that gives MK on-demand invincibility when he wants it. Planking has not been fixed unless the ledge grab limit is 20-25, which would make the game unplayable or would change the game to such a degree that it would be based around 'Grab the ledge and get DQ'ed, or Die.'. Making this claim just shows how naive you really are.



Now for me to show how the counterpoints should side with Pro-ban, hm?



Counterpoint #1: Metaknight is too good and/or over-centralizing.

See what I said for Argument #2.

"Alright, now.... If we exclude Snake, MK's score pretty much equals adding Falco through Pikachu scores together. If we include Snake, MK's score equals Snake through Ice climbers added together. Note, that this is with pretty much a huge Softban on the EC (Or what feels like, as the locals I go to, there is ever only one or two MKs, and they get picked on heavily for playing MK.)"


Counterpoint #2: Metaknight circumvents the current counter picking system.

Even discussing this counterpoint the way you have, voids your argument in Argument #4. MK doesn't have a disadvantage stage, so unlike say.... Wario who utterly hates Luigi's mansion and FD and has more disadvantage matchups on those stages vs some characters, MK doesn't share this problem.

For matchups, MK doesn't have ANY bad matchups what-so-ever. Wario has a bunch of equal ones, and some bad matchups with D3, Marth, and peach. In fact, its hard to say if MK goes even with Wario. MK only really goes even with himself, and thats because of a clone match, nothing more. Due to this, if you call for a double blind pick, you could choose to go MK and there would be no chance of you having a bad matchup, while if you were DK, you run the risk of the opponent choosing D3.

As for player skill? This works to a point, but due to how MK works, he requires less practice to be good. MK doesn't have to Morterslide, or Cook nades, or strategically place Landmines and C4 like snake does, the MK player just needs a basic knowledge on Spacing, Snake's moves and what is safe, maybe how to EDC, and how to plank, and he is already equal to that Snake. While the snake has to do so many ATs to equal the MK, MK has less work to do in general.

As for the counterpick system having little impact on tournaments? DK vs D3 would like a word with you, or Fox vs Pika, or Ganondorf vs Wario, or Sonic vs Wario, or, Captain Falcon vs Wario, or Ganondorf vs D3.... Those matchups heavily favor one character to the point where it is nearly impossible to win as the other character unless the opponent is sandbagging. Saying that the counterpick system has little impact is the holy grail of foolishness.


Counterpoint #3: Metaknight is easy to use and makes the game less fun and less fair.

I have quite a few people who would agree with this counterpoint. MK makes some characters have no chance, due to how prominent he is. I can't play say... Ganondorf or Bowser or Mario if there is a decent MK at a tournament. Sure I can't play them if I'm vs say a D3, but then I can just pick IC or Falco and destroy that D3. I can't do that if I'm fighting a MK, I'd have to go MK or just outskill that MK in general to beat him If I mained Mario or Ganon or Bowser.

Mid-level play, MK is much easier to play then say.... Wario due to his simplicity and brokenness. MK has one AT that really helps him, EDC, other then that, I just need to know spacing and how to approach other characters and their moves, and I've won with MK. (The latter you need to know for ALL characters, its called knowing the matchup.) Saying MK isn't easy to use is silly, I could go grab someone who has never played brawl before and let them play around with all the characters, and they will say... "Oh wow, this Meta Knight guy is just so fluid and easy to play. I could just spam B and kill this guy, and I couldn't do that with Ice climbers or Pikachu or Link." Some things are hard to show in a court, yes, but they are still there.



Now what I've said, Might concern Mid level play more, I dunno. I say its Mid/high level, about the level I'm at since I haven't really fought the greats like M2K, Dojo, Fiction, DMG, so I don't have the experience some others would have fighting at that level. Who knows? I might be equal to them in play, I might not. Maybe when I can actually travel I could see for myself. (It is hard to travel though when your legally blind, and are missing one eye >.<, at least I pretty much get collage for free just from scholarships.)

My decision is to Ban him, more for the fact that people I know would have much more fun at the game with MK gone, and so we could have more people in the Smash community. As it stands, MK has pushed people away, arguments for and against MK has pushed people away, people have quit the smash community due to MK who were around since 64.... Having MK gone can only have a plus.

And if we decide to ban Snake? Wario would like to say Hi. So would D3, So would Falco and pika. Lots of characters have an advantage over Snake, unlike MK who has no disadvantages at all.


Oh... And I'd like to say this. The Pro-ban side has more points addressed and with more clarity and facts then the Anti-ban side, that is all.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I see no reason to be fair about this at all. Treating everybody equally assumes we all have an equal stake in this, but this isn't a safe assumption to make about the voterbase here. Many don't go to tourneys, and thus this can't and shouldn't apply to them.

I'm going to bed, and I will be able to sleep well knowing that you are posting here.

 

[AvariceX]

This debate on whether or not everyone should be included is so stupid, and it's blatantly highlighting the bias on the anti-ban side. Over and over I'm seeing arguments like people who shouldn't be voting are voting to ban MK, whether with joke votes or not. However it is never mentioned by these people that perhaps people are doing the exact same thing on the anti-ban side?

I wish I hadn't already wasted my vote so I could vote anti-ban and quit this game to spite these people while I walk away laughing "hahaha have fun with MK for another year."

 

[Tin Man]

Most people are creating an account to vote because they were either just spectators of smashboards until now, came from allisbrawl.com, or decided to join recently. And yes all of them have a right to vote.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Brawl came out a year and a bit ago - it's not a big deal if people with 09 join dates want to participate. They have a right to.

I'm sorry if I don't think people who aren't a part of this competitive community should vote on something that affects the actual competitive community. A lot of these people are just members of smashboards, and that's it.

This debate on whether or not everyone should be included is so stupid, and it's blatantly highlighting the bias on the anti-ban side. Over and over I'm seeing arguments like people who shouldn't be voting are voting to ban MK, whether with joke votes or not. However it is never mentioned by these people that perhaps people are doing the exact same thing on the anti-ban side?

I wish I hadn't already wasted my vote so I could vote anti-ban and quit this game to spite these people while I walk away laughing "hahaha have fun with MK for another year."

No one is saying the same issue doesn't exist on the anti-ban side. It does.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

You seem to think that the SBR is infallible in constructing a competitive game...

Not infallible, just that their ruleset is vague enough to be TRULY fair. The minute you start making a decision to ban an entire character is when the REAL tyranny begins.

Look at the ****ing declaration of independence. Did they spell **** out? No. They left it open to interpretation for a reason, you dolt.


People like you think you are crusading for the good, but you have no idea that you are actually championing the very tyranny that you believe you oppose. It's sad, really.




Anyway, I'm REALLY going to bed now.

 

[JUDGE]

I just clicked 10 random named in the poll results, and got 7 people who joined smashboards within the last 3 months, and have under 30 posts. I highly doubt these people have ever been to a legitimate tournament, and I highly doubt a lot of the people voting have.

what about the people who are in another community a long time before and lately decided to join smashboards?????

i think there are pretty much from them here, who just have 30 posts but still went to many tourney succesfully

 

[Tin Man]

I wish I hadn't already wasted my vote so I could vote anti-ban and quit this game to spite these people while I walk away laughing "hahaha have fun with MK for another year."

U were a man and u did the right thing

dun be evil, i love our matches (our matches would kill me if they lasted like 10 seconds longer )

 

[JUDGE]

I am Pro-ban MK. Last poll I voted that I was not sure, but I gave it lots of thought and decided MK is ban-worthy. Now, I may not be Dojo, or DMG or any really amazing people, but I do win local tournies so I am not too far off from them. My views on MK being banned may or may not be agreeable to others, but they make sense where history is concerned. I will just say I pretty much agree with pretty much everything thats on the Pro-ban side, so I'll just pick apart the Anti-ban side.

Argument #1: Metaknight is not broken.

Right... And how is he not broken? He can dodge any move in the game if he wanted with his Dimensional cape, I know I do it if I play MK to dodge say.... A waft or just to get behind someone while having the combination of an Invincibility star and a cloaking device. That right there is one reason why he is broken, being able to nullify every move in the game without having any possible counter. Now, this may be Wifi, but If I get sudden death with someone on Wifi, I just IDC until they die from bomb-ombs dropping. How was that fair to the other person who does not have invincibility on-demand? In a tourny, I can't IDC, but I could EDC to dodge a move or get anywhere I want on the stage without any risk.

Now as for the ledge-grab rule. This was instituted due to MK's planking, and he can still go around the rule with all his jumps, his glide, and his up-b which automatically goes into a glide! Now, which characters can actually harm MK when he is planking? Not many, and even with a bike thrown at him, MK can just dodge it with all his jumps then continue planking. Only if the ledge grab rule was say.... 20 or something could you actually cause MK to stop planking, but then he could still dominate people due to his moveset. But then if it was 20, that is 1 ledge grab every 24 seconds to be DQed, which can actually happen especially on Norfair. And this could be abused so much by people like Wario or Pit or even MK himself to just DQ their opponent due to forcing them to decide to grab the ledge, or die.

Now, about MK's moveset. He has basically every tool in his box besides a projectile, but with on-demand invincibility, he can just go right next to the projectile spammer and destroy them. Now for what he has that no other character has, which pretty much make him broken...
-His sword slashes have good range, and share the same property as Laser attacks. (IE, they do not cling, and go through everything that's not disjointed or laser themselves.).
What this means is that MK already has an advantage over many characters due to his sword slashes, which are also disjointed, to pretty much always beat out other character moves unless the other character's move has longer range and is disjointed/projectile.
-He has the dimensional cape.
This is basically invincibility on-demand when he wants it, as well as a "go anywhere on the stage that you want without being able to be hit. You can even go behind someone through their most powerful attack and not be touched." As well as the fact that MK moves faster in his cape then he does while running, and if you don't attack with it, the cape has very little downtime.
-Very little lag
This is addressed heavily in Brawl+ by changing the lag on his attacks, MK's attacks have very little lag and can be stringed pretty much seamlessly. (The Fsmash is the exception.) He can even hasten his Ftilt by doing a Dtilt first. Not to mention his kill moves, the Dsmash and Shuttle loop, have very little start up lag, and the shuttle loop even has invincibility frames!. The shuttle loop has ending lag in the form of landing, but the Dsmash doesn't.

There is more that could be said here possibly, but then I couldn't disprove the other arguments for anti-ban, could I?


Argument #2: Metaknight does not dominate the metagame.

1 Meta Knight (51 top8, 38 top4, 21 top2, 15 wins) - 1223.9
2 Snake (31 top8, 12 top4, 8 top2, 14 wins) - 753.9

A Rank «Overused» 24.83%
3 Falco (14 top8, 7 top4, 5 top2, 2 wins) - 207.1 - 4
4 Diddy Kong (18 top8, 8 top4, 6 top2, 2 wins) - 184.5 - 3
5 Ice Climbers (8 top8, 8 top4, 7 top2, 4 wins) - 165.9 - 8
6 Marth (11 top8, 9 top4, 1 top2, 10 wins) - 144.2 - 7
7 Wario (17 top8, 6 top4, 3 top2, 2 wins) - 140.8 - 9
8 ROB (7 top8, 11 top4, 0 top2, 6 wins) - 128.8 - 11

B Rank «Standard» 15.97%
9 Kirby (11 top8, 7 top4, 1 top2, 3 wins) - 102.4 - 15
10 King Dedede (10 top8, 6 top4, 5 top2, 4 wins) - 102.3 - 6
11 Pikachu (10 top8, 4 top4, 1 top2, 1 win) - 96.2 - 8

Alright, now.... If we exclude Snake, MK's score pretty much equals adding Falco through Pikachu scores together. If we include Snake, MK's score equals Snake through Ice climbers added together. Note, that this is with pretty much a huge Softban on the EC (Or what feels like, as the locals I go to, there is ever only one or two MKs, and they get picked on heavily for playing MK.)

MK dominates the Metagame when it just comes to score, Snake comes close, but this is mostly due to MK knocking Snake's counters off the table. (D3 for example, or Pikachu.)

Also, when you talk about matchups for any character, the most discussion always goes into how to beat MK due to him being so dominant. I know I spent a good 40 minutes trying to think of ways to show how MK vs Wario was even in my guide, and now I'm thinking its 52.5/47.5 in MK's favor vs Wario. And even with spending the most time on the MK matchup, I still missed a few things.

And even if statistics doesn't persuade you, think of this. People who play MK as a main or have MK as a secondary are picked on in my area for playing 'Mr. Broken', is that the environment you want to eventually play in? Also think, it discourages some new players from joining the Smash community. That is pretty serious from a psychological standpoint.


Argument #3: The game is still growing and evolving.

We have Brawl+, EBrawl, and may other 'hacked' versions of Brawl. We have pretty much every scrap of data for each character. We can edit and change everything in brawl besides Subspace and Models, and Models is being worked on and almost finished. Brawl has been hacked so much that it soon will be the next MUGEN, so saying we don't know some things about the game is flawed. Maybe we can learn a few glitches here and there, but the major stuff has already been learned.

Also... A little history lesson. France could have stopped WW2 from even happening had they attacked Germany when Germany took the dividing line between France and Germany, making the holocaust never happen. But France did nothing and watched. Germany then took over Poland, and then soon Blitzkrieged France, and if it wasn't for the English Channel, they would have taken over Britain. See where a 'wait and see' attitude did for mankind? It allowed Hitler to slaughter countless innocents in the holocaust all because France and Britain, as well as the rest of Europe has a 'wait and see' attitude. Now, if the US hadn't made the first atomic bomb or Germany hadn't surrendered, Hitler would've nuked the rest of the world, all because people had a 'wait and see' attitude.

The game has been out for a year and this has still been a constant problem. I know for a fact that many people would enjoy the game more if MK was gone. I know I would, because then I could have some fun with Ganondorf, or Bowser, or Mario, or other characters that stand no chance vs MK. (Sure those characters aren't that good vs D3, but D3 gets slaughtered by IC, Falco, Pika, Zelda, and other characters. MK goes even with MK, thats it.)


Argument #4: Implying that Metaknight breaks the counterpick system also implies that Brawl is a game based on counterpicking.

This is such a stupid argument. Counterpicking to the degree that Brawl has it makes it a very balanced game. If you want a game where everyone is the same, go play Runescape, where you control a grey blob and fight other grey blobs who are the same, just with maybe a small difference here and there. That is really boring.

Also, if you wish to make that claim, then I can say that Brawl is a game that hates items. I like playing with items, yet it took until a few months ago or about to make ISP. Note, two different tournaments that are based around having items and not having items, such a huge part of the game. Its a poor claim to make.

Maybe I can't give much insight here as say.... Praxis could, but hey, thats what I think.

Argument #5: Metaknight’s extraneous circumstances are already resolved.


They have not been resolved, and actually have strengthened the pro-ban argument. IDC may be banned, but EDC is an amazing ability that gives MK on-demand invincibility when he wants it. Planking has not been fixed unless the ledge grab limit is 20-25, which would make the game unplayable or would change the game to such a degree that it would be based around 'Grab the ledge and get DQ'ed, or Die.'. Making this claim just shows how naive you really are.



Now for me to show how the counterpoints should side with Pro-ban, hm?



Counterpoint #1: Metaknight is too good and/or over-centralizing.

See what I said for Argument #2.

"Alright, now.... If we exclude Snake, MK's score pretty much equals adding Falco through Pikachu scores together. If we include Snake, MK's score equals Snake through Ice climbers added together. Note, that this is with pretty much a huge Softban on the EC (Or what feels like, as the locals I go to, there is ever only one or two MKs, and they get picked on heavily for playing MK.)"


Counterpoint #2: Metaknight circumvents the current counter picking system.

Even discussing this counterpoint the way you have, voids your argument in Argument #4. MK doesn't have a disadvantage stage, so unlike say.... Wario who utterly hates Luigi's mansion and FD and has more disadvantage matchups on those stages vs some characters, MK doesn't share this problem.

For matchups, MK doesn't have ANY bad matchups what-so-ever. Wario has a bunch of equal ones, and some bad matchups with D3, Marth, and peach. In fact, its hard to say if MK goes even with Wario. MK only really goes even with himself, and thats because of a clone match, nothing more. Due to this, if you call for a double blind pick, you could choose to go MK and there would be no chance of you having a bad matchup, while if you were DK, you run the risk of the opponent choosing D3.

As for player skill? This works to a point, but due to how MK works, he requires less practice to be good. MK doesn't have to Morterslide, or Cook nades, or strategically place Landmines and C4 like snake does, the MK player just needs a basic knowledge on Spacing, Snake's moves and what is safe, maybe how to EDC, and how to plank, and he is already equal to that Snake. While the snake has to do so many ATs to equal the MK, MK has less work to do in general.

As for the counterpick system having little impact on tournaments? DK vs D3 would like a word with you, or Fox vs Pika, or Ganondorf vs Wario, or Sonic vs Wario, or, Captain Falcon vs Wario, or Ganondorf vs D3.... Those matchups heavily favor one character to the point where it is nearly impossible to win as the other character unless the opponent is sandbagging. Saying that the counterpick system has little impact is the holy grail of foolishness.


Counterpoint #3: Metaknight is easy to use and makes the game less fun and less fair.

I have quite a few people who would agree with this counterpoint. MK makes some characters have no chance, due to how prominent he is. I can't play say... Ganondorf or Bowser or Mario if there is a decent MK at a tournament. Sure I can't play them if I'm vs say a D3, but then I can just pick IC or Falco and destroy that D3. I can't do that if I'm fighting a MK, I'd have to go MK or just outskill that MK in general to beat him If I mained Mario or Ganon or Bowser.

Mid-level play, MK is much easier to play then say.... Wario due to his simplicity and brokenness. MK has one AT that really helps him, EDC, other then that, I just need to know spacing and how to approach other characters and their moves, and I've won with MK. (The latter you need to know for ALL characters, its called knowing the matchup.) Saying MK isn't easy to use is silly, I could go grab someone who has never played brawl before and let them play around with all the characters, and they will say... "Oh wow, this Meta Knight guy is just so fluid and easy to play. I could just spam B and kill this guy, and I couldn't do that with Ice climbers or Pikachu or Link." Some things are hard to show in a court, yes, but they are still there.



Now what I've said, Might concern Mid level play more, I dunno. I say its Mid/high level, about the level I'm at since I haven't really fought the greats like M2K, Dojo, Fiction, DMG, so I don't have the experience some others would have fighting at that level. Who knows? I might be equal to them in play, I might not. Maybe when I can actually travel I could see for myself. (It is hard to travel though when your legally blind, and are missing one eye >.<, at least I pretty much get collage for free just from scholarships.)

My decision is to Ban him, more for the fact that people I know would have much more fun at the game with MK gone, and so we could have more people in the Smash community. As it stands, MK has pushed people away, arguments for and against MK has pushed people away, people have quit the smash community due to MK who were around since 64.... Having MK gone can only have a plus.

And if we decide to ban Snake? Wario would like to say Hi. So would D3, So would Falco and pika. Lots of characters have an advantage over Snake, unlike MK who has no disadvantages at all.


Oh... And I'd like to say this. The Pro-ban side has more points addressed and with more clarity and facts then the Anti-ban side, that is all.

in the beginning i was for banning meta knight, thought he would be way to strong : (
but i studyied him A LOT cuz he is one of marios most hardest match up.......
.....and it worked
last week i won a biiig tourney with 128 people and in the grandfinals i had to face a ****ing good mk.........i was really scared when i heard that but i still won against this guy

i know mk is way to strong, i know he has a perfect recovery, i know his attacks are as fast as lightning, i know about his machtornado(!), his shuttleloop(!) and his spammable dsmash(that comes out at frame 5!!!!!!!)

but if people spend enough time to study mk metagame and hit him at his weekness points,
then i'm sure that a good player can defeat a good mk

it isn't like beating a mk is impossible
i wanna remind eveyone who seem to forgot this : smash bros is a game that based on mindgames

mindgames!!! there is nothing a mk can do when he get mindgamed, so even a ganon can defeat a mk(even if it's hard)


please do not ban mk!! i know we can kick their *****!!!!
like i did in the tourney muhahahahahaha^^ *act up^^*
__________________

 

[Deleted member]

I'm sorry if I don't think people who aren't a part of this competitive community should vote on something that affects the actual competitive community. A lot of these people are just members of smashboards, and that's it.

I really, really, really don't want to draw a comparison to eugenics...but **** it's just so tempting.

No one is saying the same issue doesn't exist on the anti-ban side. It does.

No, but they're certainly ignoring it.

MusicMan, you got stumped on the definition of democracy - don't make me do it again for tyranny

 

[Kamikaze*]

He can dodge any move in the game if he wanted with his Dimensional cape,.

I stopped reading right here. IDC is banned, and regular cape sucks.