Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[fkacyan]

The idea that people are voting "no" because a good player might quit is ridiculous.

One would think that would be something people would clamor for.

I mean, hell, suddenly the pot has gotten thousands of dollars bigger!

Spoiler

On another note, top players not participating has the potential to slow metagame development, but it's still not a reason to vote.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

For the sake of gathering some data on demographics, maybe we can have a poll on who everyone mains?

It would be also useful to determine who everyone plays as a secondary.

This could be used to sort out the risk involved in removing MK. When I say "risk" I mean, the percentage of players it effects. I guess this is kind of a utilitarian way of looking at things, but more data never hurts, does it?

Though this does have the inherent flaw in the people taking the poll. If we don't get honest answers it won't work. Though if something like this were to go through, the secondaries poll has to have a 'none' option, for those who main one character.

Just putting thoughts on the table.

-Tuen

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sorry, you don't get to say "only scrubs are pro-ban" when several well-placing players of high and top tier characters (NinjaLink, CO18 just to name two random ones) are pro-ban. Let's say this right now: it is entirely FALSE that only bad players want a ban.

 

[Sovereign]

Sorry, you don't get to say "only scrubs are pro-ban" when several well-placing players of high and top tier characters (NinjaLink, CO18 just to name two random ones) are pro-ban. Let's say this right now: it is entirely FALSE that only bad players want a ban.

I don't know where you derived that from, but feeling guilty is none of my concern. I said players who are not in the competitive scene, not, players who suck so much *** that they breathe Meta Knight's air.

When does, "not in the competitive scene" = "scrub"? Anyone?

Read, and then respond.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah, you're right! No one active in the competitive scene wants a MK ban! I was so silly.

 

[platiepoos]

Sigh. How dissapointing. Looking at past results it doesn't seem like we're going to get a 2/3rd's vote.

Overall, I feel the pro-ban side was written out much better than the anti-ban side. Anti-ban had very little evidence/proof/material other than tournament rankings.

 

[Minwu]

Most of the people that want Meta Knight banned aren't even in the competitive scene, because if they were, they would understand the challenge of having to bring your own skill up in order to beat a Meta Knight mainer, like M2k or Tyrant, both of which Fiction beat on the same day, with Wario. (Yet, he still wants to ban him, weird...)

It's not weird. He has a larger scope of the community than himself. Competition has nothing to do with masochism.

Taking out Meta Knight would cause a decay in the competitive scene, due to Snake being the next best to play with, until he gets arthritis from tilting so much. Seriously, why would you want to ban a light-weight character, such as Meta Knight, when you have a heavy character like Snake that can do tilts that are stronger than ROBs smash attacks (lol).

People only want to ban Meta Knight for his popularity, not him as a character. They want ban him, so that M2k or any other professional Meta Knight mainer has to get another character, and win tourneys until that one gets too popular, and then ban him. Hell, Ally's going to get Snake banned, the way he's going.

MK is the best character by a considerable margin. Snake camps characters that can't camp. Snake outprioritizes characters to hell if they have no transcendent priority moves. Snake gets gimped and comboed, unless he hits himself.



A better census would be to find out if MK mains hate MK.

 

[Red Arremer]

The idea that people are voting "no" because a good player might quit is ridiculous.

The idea that people are voting "yes" in order to see what the top Meta Knight players are going to play instead is ridiculous, too.
But they do. I've seen at least a dozen of those.

 

[Silent Beast]

This is a fair point, but the data really doesn't exist. Brawl is unprecedented in its tournament stats keeping. The only other example I know if is this post I mentioned but didn't find earlier by AlphaZealot about melee, and even then it's nowhere near as complete as Ankoku's Brawl data (though still good stuff).

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201196

A belated thanks for your response. It's too bad extensive data doesn't exist, though the AZ Melee data does provide some evidence, in a small sample size, that non-banworthy characters are capable of stretches of MK-in-Brawl-like tournament performance.

-----------------------------------

While Meta Knight has no disadvantaged matchups, he has several even matchups, so he can be counterpicked. It's just not that you will have an far easier time with him regardless of your counterpick.

In MK's case, that is not true. MK to this day has zero bad matchups. Even though he still has even matchups, he has no negitive matchups. In that sense is what breaks the counter pick system.

Honest question that builds largely off of Spadefox's post:

Why does the opposing character necessarily have to be put into a disadvantageous situation to make an effective counterpick? Assume that you are a Marth main that is also confident in his/her Diddy and Snake as secondaries. If you are up against a MK main in tourney, wouldn't switching from Marth, who loses to MK, to Diddy or Snake, who go about even with MK, be a good counterpick? Isn't the idea of a counterpick to improve your odds of winning your set? I don't really understand why improving from a disadvantageous matchup to an even matchup that then gives you a good chance (about 50-50, depending on player skill) of winning your set is a sign that the counterpicking system has been broken.

 

[Mota]

Don't knock the ban till we've tried it.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Most of the people that want Meta Knight banned aren't even in the competitive scene, because if they were, they would understand the challenge of having to bring your own skill up in order to beat a Meta Knight mainer, like M2k or Tyrant, both of which Fiction beat on the same day, with Wario. (Yet, he still wants to ban him, weird...)

Taking out Meta Knight would cause a decay in the competitive scene, due to Snake being the next best to play with, until he gets arthritis from tilting so much. Seriously, why would you want to ban a light-weight character, such as Meta Knight, when you have a heavy character like Snake that can do tilts that are stronger than ROBs smash attacks (lol).

The logic behind wanting Meta Knight banned, competitively will never have sensible reason.

People only want to ban Meta Knight for his popularity, not him as a character. They want ban him, so that M2k or any other professional Meta Knight mainer has to get another character, and win tourneys until that one gets too popular, and then ban him. Hell, Ally's going to get Snake banned, the way he's going.

Banning is pointless, and only serves to destroy the fabric of the game.

"Hate the player, not the game."

Weak arguement is weak. Snake has counterpicks and keep in mind that Snake used to be on top until people learned how to beat him. That period lasted about two months after Brawl was released in North America and Metaknight has stayed on top ever since despite people saying that Metaknight would eventually fall too. For probably the fifth time today, the slippery slope arguement in this situation is garbage.

 

[Minwu]

Why does the opposing character necessarily have to be put into a disadvantageous situation to make an effective counterpick? Assume that you are a Marth main that is also confident in his/her Diddy and Snake as secondaries. If you are up against a MK main in tourney, wouldn't switching from Marth, who loses to MK, to Diddy or Snake, who go about even with MK, be a good counterpick? Isn't the idea of a counterpick to improve your odds of winning your set? I don't really understand why improving from a disadvantageous matchup to an even matchup that then gives you a good chance (about 50-50, depending on player skill) of winning your set is a sign that the counterpicking system has been broken.

You will only know your seconds as good as seconds, and the only widely agreed upon even matchup is Wario. As for the Diddy matchup, Le_Thien(it was him right?) hit the nail on the head with that one: a Diddy main that has mastered banana tricks going on to master MK is invincible versus any Diddy.

link to post

I'm interested in a response to this.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Voted no..

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'm interested in a response to this.

There probably won't be unfortunately. That's one of the problems with threads like this that grow an average of 5-10 pages an hour.

Add in: Also I wanted to point this out too despite the issue being old hat:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225109

Brawl was denied from being in the MLG Pro Circuit this year. Has anyone really thought of why? If you ask me, it's an issue of appeal and kind of highlights how boring the Brawl metagame has become. As I argued earlier, it lacks true variety which is harmful for a game as shallow as Brawl.

 

[sandwhale]

i voted no

 

[Red Arremer]

Brawl was denied from being in the MLG Pro Circuit this year. Has anyone really thought of why? If you ask me, it's an issue of appeal and kind of highlights how boring the Brawl metagame has become. As I argued earlier, it lacks true variety which is harmful for a game as shallow as Brawl.

Uhm... no? lol

 

[gm jack]

Sigh. How dissapointing. Looking at past results it doesn't seem like we're going to get a 2/3rd's vote.

Overall, I feel the pro-ban side was written out much better than the anti-ban side. Anti-ban had very little evidence/proof/material other than tournament rankings.

Do they really need any more? How else are you going to argue that someone does not need to be banned?

He isn't dominating completely for a character that is undeniably the best. Note this does not mean it is by a massive margin, it is just clearly better than the next best. The metagame revolves around the best character, and rightly so. Not many people are going to spend time on the Ganondorf match up, because he is comparatively unpopular and not as difficult to beat.

The game is always going to revolve around the best characters, and MK is the head of the top tiers, so will get more attention.

 

[Meta-K]

Anyone still on the pro-ban side, can I direct you to this thread? It may be an interesting read.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243128

 

[Renegade TX2000]

you know if I would have kept count... The most obvious character to kept on beating me and retaining top is mk... 2nd to that isn't even snake, it's fox and falco. MK EASILY has beaten me more times then any amount of character on the roster by atleast a fold. Also yes i've fell victim; placing 4th a crap load of times due to mk always being in the top 5 and beating me, getting "top 3" every single time. I can beat the best dk's/falco's but when I see MK i just get badly 2 stocked regardles out of all my attention to learning how to fight mk. HURRAYYYY! keep mk in the game after this vote and watch how fast I main mk.

 

[Iliad]

Do they really need any more? How else are you going to argue that someone does not need to be banned?

He isn't dominating completely for a character that is undeniably the best. Note this does not mean it is by a massive margin, it is just clearly better than the next best. The metagame revolves around the best character, and rightly so. Not many people are going to spend time on the Ganondorf match up, because he is comparatively unpopular and not as difficult to beat.

The game is always going to revolve around the best characters, and MK is the head of the top tiers, so will get more attention.

Who knows what level of metagame a char like Ganon could reach if people were able to use him? Look at falcon. He was considered absolute **** (technically speaking still is lmao) but people wanted to keep playing him for love of the good old days... Falcon dittos, falcon in pools, Ally's Falcon in grand finals. His constant use developed his metagame enough that even a char with such underpowered moves and horrific priority climbed his way up from the very bottom where tbh, he belongs. The argument that no one elses metagame compares to MK so of course people only wanna play MK is tier*** logic and is exactly why the brawl community is dying off.

Now think of this. If top level competitors are wanting a pro-ban, the lower echelon of smashers (Like myself, I will be honest.) are desperately in need of the ban as well. In east Canada where I'm from, we've had diverse mains, and phenominal play from characters that no one expected. Slowly but surely however, the scene has degenerated into a point where our PR has become a joke. Seven out of the top ten are MK mains. There are two to three more MK mains in the up and comers. When anti banners argue that people just haven't discovered proper metagame for other characters, how can you blame them? MK is so overused and abused that it causes other players to lose faith in their mains and swap.

There was a fox main in the ontario PR who was absolutely phenominal. Did things with Fox you couldn't imagine and placed with fox in high level play. It didn't take long for it to sink it however, that his main was useless against MK and he always had a dislike for the IC chaingrab. So what did he do, he dropped fox for MK. He places better, oh hell yes he does. He gives ICs all kinds of grief. But what he did as well, was set the example "If you switch to MK all your hopes of placing and doing well in tourney will come true." which was unintentional but sadly has devastated the canadian metagame. There are only two people in eastern canada who can beat the top MKs in ontario and even then it's iffy for the ROB of the two. Ally and Holy.

When you see your community shrinking and dying, when tourneys have dropped from 70+ attendance to 60... then to 50... then to 30... then to a point you almost can't justify even running pools? Something is poisoning the game. Cyanide Knight.

There are three types of people who will vote no to this ban, and only these three. Those who don't want to have MK banned because they place well due to his broken nature, those who have no understanding of what it is like to face MKs on a constant basis and different MKs with different styles of play, and finally those who so strongly believe brawl is balanced that they shouldn't need to ban MK, to which I lol @ you good sirs.

If you don't fall into those three categories, and quite frankly even if you do because what horrible reasoning you were cursed with, you should be voting yes. Brawl should be a better game. Brawl CAN be a better game.

 

[Reizilla]

I don't. Your premise is invalid. I repeat, you aren't infallible. Don't draw conclusions on the future when you have no possible way of knowing the outcomes.

Oh, excuse me, I must've overlooked all that scientific data you used to draw your worst-case scenarios from. My bad. I only had a quote and people proven capable. lulz

 

[Meta-K]

I guess I'll just post this here:

First post on the website! Hey, Smash community, my name’s Meta-K (don’t be fooled, I’m a Kirby main). Although that’s what it says on my status, I’m definitely not a Smash n00b. I’m more of a mid-level, good-but-not-great player who knows a fair-sized bit about the game. With all the controversy of the Meta Knight ban going on for the next week and a half, I thought I would provide the one thing I haven’t seen yet: a rebuttal to the arguments presented by side pro-ban. (If it is buried in the myriad of pages on the voting topic, I apologize in advance)

1. Meta Knight is bannable – You cannot assign criteria for banning characters that is unlike the firmly established criteria for banning items and stages: GAME-BREAKING RANDOMNESS. This is what differentiates stages from being counter-pick and banned. This is why items, even food on very low, is banned. Certain stages will sway a match because of forces out of the player’s control, to the extent where it will influence the outcome. Same with items: the mere existence of food will cause both players to change objectives, fighting over a temporary goal, and thus distract them from the long-term goal of winning. This is the criterion. What side pro-ban has introduced is a criterion that they claim covers all of this, plus banning Meta Knight. You cannot change the rules half-way through to fit your argument.

2. Meta Knight is the best character in the game by a significant margin – From what I’ve read, he is the best character by a slight margin, over Snake. Again, side pro-ban has redefined firmly established terminology (“broken”) for their own purposes. THIS CANNOT BE DONE. MK is the best character in the game, true. But the fact that he does have 50:50 matchups with a few characters shows he is still mortal.

3. Meta Knight has a perfect recovery and an abnormally safe ledge game – Here’s a scenario for you: say Mew2King uses every character to fight 39 consecutive matches with Ally’s Snake (counting PT as three separates). In every match, Ally’s Snake catches M2K with an utilt. M2K’s legendary Meta Knight, being the sixth-lightest character, will DIE BEFORE 85% OF THE OTHER CHARACTERS. So what if his recovery is good, if he can’t survive past well over half the cast?

4. Meta Knight has too many safe options – One of the few valid points side pro-ban has produced, seeing as I’m sure no-one wants to actually go through every possible scenario and count them. However, they did leave one contradiction: MK has a “safe” option in every scenario, and yet good MK players still lose? Obviously, it comes down to players being able to spot the safe options. Every character has safe options, but they must be able to read the opponent and figure out what is the best option in any given scenario.

5. Meta Knight breaks the counter-pick system – Something I’ve always wondered: would Genesis have gone any differently if M2K countered with D3 for one round? Yes, MK has only even to favourable matchups, but he is rarely the BEST matchup, with Snake as a prime example. Now, I’m sure M2K, being a much, MUCH better smasher than myself, knew what he was doing when he stuck with MK, but smashers of a lesser calibre would definitely prefer the higher Snake-D3 matchup to the lower Snake-MK, assuming they knew both equally well.

6. Meta Knight detracts from the metagame – If Meta Knight is removed from tournament play, how can a valid counter-strategy be presented? If MK is removed now, he will forever remain on his pedestal of “godliness,” and no-one will be able to deal with him if reintroduced, due to lack of familiarity in the matchup.

7. Meta Knight is a very serious detriment to the mid level of play – I live in Nova Scotia, the definition of mid-level (sorry, guys!) Would you like to know the results of our last tournament? Luigi, Marth, Olimar, MK, ICs. A LUIGI main beat Meta Knight in a mid-level tournament? I think that settles it.

8. The community favours a ban – I cannot argue that, currently, 53% of Smashboards favours a ban. However, if you refuse to cater to 47% of the community, you could lose almost half of your members. Clearly, a significant majority (at LEAST 2/3, if not 3/4) is needed before we can actually say a ban would cater to the majority of people. Every second person in favour of a ban is barely majority.

9. Meta Knight is already clearly bannable, but we have artificial and unclear rules in place to keep him in the game – What about the Ice Climber freeze glitch in Melee? Now, I know that it’s easier to get away with the EDC than the freeze, but that’s what TOs and refs are for. Personally, I don’t use DC very often (yes, I know, call me a n00b), but I would be suspicious if my opponent used it in EVERY scenario. MK has more options than DC, by far, and most of them damage the opponent, which is what you want in a fighting game. The rules presented to ban MK are artificial, crafted solely for the purpose of this argument.

Now, I know that this will upset 53% of the community, and that I will be trolled/flamed/called a n00b by that same 53% (what a way to break into the community, eh?), but here’s a proposition for you: instead of complaining on this thread that you don’t like my opinions (which are not only valid, but based on fact: it is a FACT that MK is not the best Snake counter, a FACT that MK did not win the aforementioned tournament, a FACT that MK is the sixth-lightest character, etc.), write a counter-argument of your own, backed up with facts as this one. All I can say is, Back Room, please make sure everyone knows what they’re doing when they go to vote! Anyways, that’s all I have to say about that. Anyone offended by this: you’re entitled to your opinion, and I can respect that. If MK is banned, I’ll still play friendlies, and maybe even small-scale tournaments where he will be allowed; but if I ever become good enough to go big time, I probably won’t. If you think he should be banned, I won’t have a problem with that unless you’re my local TO.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Uhm... no? lol

*cracks neck* Why not? Kind of makes you wonder considering Brawl's popularity and all.

@ Iliad:

That's basically my concern as well. More and more people are saying "screw it, I'll play as Metaknight" then trying to develop their own characters. The community's kind of created a monster in that regard. Really, this whole thing wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue if more people had adapted the competitive ideal from the start of trying to rise above their bad matchups instead of just caving in and switching to the best character. In a way, the Brawl community fed the fire and made Metaknight to what he is now, the easy way out especially at lower levels. I seriously believe that the gap between Metaknight and Snake wouldn't be so facepalmably laughable if the community had acted differently when Metaknight overtook Snake in placings more than a year ago.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

is it me or do they alllll say the samething? LOL "Sigh", we know meta is beatable but that wasn't the point, go read some more

 

[mikeray4]

some of the pro banners have mk to be their wirst match up for their character..coughpeachcough coughrobcough cougholimarcough, isnt it great to just ban a character and have 1 of your worst match ups just simply gone?
all I'm saying is that these mains are biased just because of their own match up with MK.

 

[TheMike]

I didn't know there was EVO in South America. What city was it in?

São Paulo, Brazil

 

[Renegade TX2000]

some of the pro banners have mk to be their wirst match up for their character..coughpeachcough coughrobcough cougholimarcough, isnt it great to just ban a character and have 1 of your worst match ups just simply gone?
all I'm saying is that these mains are biased just because of their own match up with MK.

which is why i'm maining mk if he's not banned lol to SOLVE my problems.

 

[Affinity]

São Paulo, Brazil

Mike, you should probably clarify that the tournament wasn't really EVO, and that the TOs just paid the EVO guys to be able to use the name.

 

[Red Arremer]

*cracks neck* Why not? Kind of makes you wonder considering Brawl's popularity and all.

The answer is in the thread:

The reality is that making a decision about whether to include a game on the Pro Circuit is a very complex process. There are an immense amount of factors that go into it, from the space on our shipping trucks, the setups, venue space, prize money/operating cost, sponsorships, the current economy, or a variety of other things. And that’s the truth. This year there was not any one reason Brawl was not on the circuit. It was a combination of factors that simply didn’t line up properly.

Of course, if you want to see a conspiracy everywhere, you will always find clues. But PLEASE don't be Xyro.

 

[Fakinha]

It's all about mind games.

MK is way too good. However he is not Broken.
And all this stuff of unbeatable high priority, no lag, perfect edge guard, perfect spacing, aerial camping... that's bull**** =\ you know that in the game if you dash grab a snake and fails, you get your *** kicked (by exemple). He is punishable. He just is (a lot) more easy to escape the punishment =P

And he's sexy :] I wanna a doll of him.
x3~

 

[~ Gheb ~]

which is why i'm maining mk if he's not banned lol to SOLVE my problems.

Yes, because you, Renegade TX2000, are an incredible and well known player, whose skill is beyond any person's doubt. If it weren't for that stupid Meta Knight you'd place first at every tournament you attend. I'm sure picking up MK will solve that problem and you'll start beating even the best non-MK players with ease! ADHD, Candy, Anther and lain will fear you once you pick up MK and you will make lots of money by winning every tournament you attend and you will travel all across the USA and possibly even Canada just to show how much you improved by merely using Meta Knight. Nobody will ever by able to take you down anymore because Meta Knight solves all your problems.

You, sir, are a genius.

 

[:mad:]

It's all about mind games.

MK is way too good. However he is not Broken.
And all this stuff of unbeatable high priority, no lag, perfect edge guard, perfect spacing, aerial camping... that's bull**** =\ you know that in the game if you dash grab a snake and fails, you get your *** kicked (by exemple). He is punishable. He just is (a lot) more easy to escape the punishment =P

And he's sexy :] I wanna a doll of him.
x3~

I don't really understand if you're trying to put up a good argument or just making an attempt to be redundant.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Yes, because you, Renegade TX2000, are an incredible and well known player, whose skill is beyond any person's doubt. If it weren't for that stupid Meta Knight you'd place first at every tournament you attend. I'm sure picking up MK will solve that problem and you'll start beating even the best non-MK players with ease! ADHD, Candy, Anther and lain will fear you once you pick up MK and you will make lots of money by winning every tournament you attend and you will travel all across the USA and possibly even Canada just to show how much you improved by merely using Meta Knight. Nobody will ever by able to take you down anymore because Meta Knight solves all your problems.

You, sir, are a genius.

Ren, I love you
but you just got a terribly hillarously amazing dose of the d!ck

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This thread is incredibly depressing. Not because of the beginning players who don't have a clue (I used to belong to this crowd), not because of the way some people react, and certainly not because I think that the people voting no are misguided idiots. No. It's sad because even with a majority vote, it will be almost impossible to get Metaknight banned. There is no way in hell that this community will get the 2/3s vote unless a lot (in the hundreds) of disgruntled players show up all of a sudden.

And I'm definitely disgruntled. I have my group of friends, and I like to think I'm better than them. I am the best in my playgroup. My Snake, my Marth, my Luigi-all three are at really high levels. And it pisses me off that despite my knowledge of the matchup, I literally cannot beat my friend's MK with luigi. And this is the friend who is just terrible at brawl. I can manage him with my marth almost, but then there's this other friend who plays mostly toon link. I can beat him with snake about 75% of the time, but he's not easy. Then he switches to MK and if I want to beat him, I either have to get lucky or use MK myself. It's come to a soft ban here too-nobody except for the noobs use MK (the noobs being the casual guys who drop in for some 4-minute FFAs sans items and with stage legality) because MK is gay.

Now to the part of the argument that isn't based on my less than ideal skill level. The concept that MK isn't broken by the definition of other fighting games is well and good. But since when is brawl defined by other fighting games? Since when do fighting games rely on ring outs to win entirely, rather than as an alternative? Since when do fighting games have multiple jumps? Since when do fighting games not have life bars, but instead procents and it goes up and you don't die if it hits 100? You can't compare SSBB to a normal fighter. The idea that the metagame is advancing is true, it just happens to be advancing with metaknight faster than with anyone else, and while some chars have hit the "roof" of their abilities (I saw a thread about this on the ROB boards; it seemed pretty logical and made a lot of sense) Metaknight is far above everyone else and there doesn't seem to be a sign of a roof anywhere. Maybe somewhere around mars. In addition, the whole metaknight planking aspect puts a whole new turn on the "Brawl is unfun" aspect. I'm currently helping to design a game called Super Smash Flash 2, a flash version of SSB. And in a recent thread, we made it very clear-SSF2 should be more like melee than brawl. Fighting a campy metaknight is unfun. Fighting a planky metaknight is 6 seconds of getting tornado'd or damaged otherwise 7 minutes and 54 seconds of twiddling your thumbs and waiting for the match to end so you can lose.

I don't understand why he isn't seen as dominant and I don't understand why people can say no to banning him unless you play him yourself. Slippery slopes are utterly invalid because the next best char has bad matchups and bad stages; most concepts against banning him have been debunked or proven inconsequential.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

LMFAO i dunno what to say anymore... uhhh yeah, Vex LOL you crack me up everytime I still want my wifi doubles "even though i stopped wifi", I still want doubles vs you and ??? double ike vs you and ur friend lol and you must pick d3!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

some of the pro banners have mk to be their wirst match up for their character..coughpeachcough coughrobcough cougholimarcough, isnt it great to just ban a character and have 1 of your worst match ups just simply gone?
all I'm saying is that these mains are biased just because of their own match up with MK.

Shut up. This is another argument which is incredibly stupid. That we want him banned because it's good for our mains. For one, no. Our mains have good and bad matchups, and MK is a bad one. I play bowser, I'm not gunning to see Ice Climbers, Diddy or DDD (okay, I want his shortstep and his infinite to go...) banned. I play snake, I'm not asking for a ban on Olimar. I play DDD, I... oh wait he's ****ed by MK too. For two, some have earned the right to be angry. Seen luigi much? Or ROB? ROB is completely invalidated by Metaknight (80/20, approximately). Marth would be top tier if he didn't have a 65/35 vs. MK. Luigi's 70/30 speaks for itself. Metaknight also invalidates a bunch of chars which aren't viable anyways, so I'll save that for another time.

 

[Red Arremer]

I have my group of friends, and I like to think I'm better than them. I am the best in my playgroup. My Snake, my Marth, my Luigi-all three are at really high levels. And it pisses me off that despite my knowledge of the matchup, I literally cannot beat my friend's MK with luigi. And this is the friend who is just terrible at brawl. I can manage him with my marth almost, but then there's this other friend who plays mostly toon link. I can beat him with snake about 75% of the time, but he's not easy. Then he switches to MK and if I want to beat him, I either have to get lucky or use MK myself.

I don't get stories like these.
I do play Meta Knight to an extent, and I usually fail to beat other Brawl players - even terrible ones - with him, including his oh-so-good matchups (Marth, Samus and R.O.B.). Players I easily beat with characters I put time in, such as Fox or Sheik/Zelda. Players I even can beat or almost beat with Low Tiers like Samus!

So apparently - Either the people here are naturally good at slaying bad Meta Knights (which I admit I am - I have less skill with Meta Knight than with other characters) or you don't know the matchup despite your words, but just think you do and whine about how you're beaten by your friends.

 

[Brinzy]

stuff

That is called a top tier character. The fact that Brawl is different doesn't amount to much at all because top tiers will be top tiers even if the objection of the game is to destroy a building. Top tiers are simply the best of the available options to you, and that will pretty much always apply.




Despite me being against the MK ban the whole time this has been an issue, I want to see this world that everyone else is envisioning when MK is gone... but not enough so that I'd vote "yes."


+1 No vote.

 

[Fakinha]

I don't really understand if you're trying to put up a good argument or just making an attempt to be redundant.

What do you want me to say? That he can be crushed by ganondorf's utilt? That would be a lie.

I said that he is good but punishable. Specialy with mind games. And so is the fact. Will you try to go over MK's attacks like an animal? Nope, he has the priority. AND he also has the range. Otherwise he wouldn't be ubber.

But look at snake's game. He can use granades and ftilts to give massive damage and then kill with nair (that can be lagless, we all know, making an offensive MK go into the utilt trap) or utilt or sweetspot bair and etcs.

Peach can combo MK to 50%+ easily and then it's up to the player's mind game to kill.

Warios can plank (yes they can) and do like 60% dmg (that's not very difficult, it is? ) and then fart.

Marth can use his range and side Bs to accumulate dmg and use fsmash in sweetspot...

So well... the way I said, it'd be simple to kill him. But that's not the way things happen. Normaly MK can do some gay early kill and etc. But some times the opposite happens, he get edgeguarded with his up B and make an error... all kind of things happens in smash.

SO. What I'm saying is that it's all up to the mind games. And MK is good but not broken. Otherwise there would only existe 2 kind of players. The MK and the suicides.

I love MK's face x3~

 

[Zumma]

Pro-ban side had really good arguments. The anti-ban side.. not so much.

I used to be anti-ban, but the points in the first post (especially the one about mid-level players getting beaten by MKs) have majorly changed my opinion.