momochuu
Smash Legend
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Yeah, I've never heard of that. Does anyone have a video?
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Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.
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Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
Honest to God, shut up... The anti-ban side has just as many people who simply spout things off from rote too. If you're going to stay in this thread simply to chastise people for not sharing your beliefs and circle jerk those that do then just leave.
I updated some old data of mine with modern results. These are the full performances of major tournaments (90+ entrees, and yes this does exclude several tournaments that would have made these numbers look more in my favor so it's not a carefully selected number) in the year 2009 so far of all characters for top 8. The only updates I turned out having to make were factoring in APEX and Genesis which didn't change much actually (mostly giving Snake two more wins), but they're factored in. Note that placements with an asterisk (*) next to them are placements for which the character did not do it alone; these are substantially less interesting than placements for which the character did do it alone.
Seven different characters have won major tournaments this year completely by themselves. These would be Meta Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Mr. Game & Watch, King Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, and Lucario.
Twenty-one characters have gotten top 8 at major tournaments by themselves. Getting top 8 at a major tournament even just once is a big deal; these characters are clearly capable if they are able to do this well even sometimes. I suggest it improbable that any of these characters are truly inviable.
That number grows to twenty-seven if you factor in characters that only got top 8 as a part of a strategy that involved multiple characters. That's 3/4 of the cast! Very oddly, Olimar is one of the characters not included...
Snake and Meta Knight have very close performances at this level with each having won four major tournaments by themselves this year. Meta Knight has more overall placements by a noticeable margin, but Snake does have a lead in the 1st* category meaning that it's actually somewhat accurate to claim that Snake is more of a major tournament winner than Meta Knight so far this year. In any case, these two are clearly the most successful characters of the year so far, though they are far from shutting out the rest of the cast.
Looking at the sheer number of characters who have been proven to be able to succeed in major tournaments, I find it really, really hard to see Meta Knight as restricting this game's diversity very much.
Code:
Meta Knight: (1st: 4, 2nd: 6, 3rd: 3, 4th: 3, 5th: 3, 7th: 5, 1st*: 1, 2nd*: 1, 3rd*: 4, 4th*: 5, 5th*: 4, 7th*: 2)
Snake: (1st: 4, 2nd: 2, 4th: 1, 5th: 2, 7th: 2, 1st*: 2, 3rd*: 2, 4th*: 2)
Diddy Kong: (1st: 1, 2nd: 1, 3rd: 1, 5th: 3, 7th: 3, 4th*: 1, 5th*: 1, 7th*: 1)
Mr. Game & Watch: (1st: 1, 2nd: 1, 4th: 1, 5th: 1, 7th: 1)
King Dedede: (1st: 1, 4th: 1, 5th: 4, 7th: 1, 2nd*: 2, 3rd*: 3, 7th*: 1)
Zero Suit Samus: (1st: 1, 5th: 1, 7th: 2, 3rd*: 1, 5th: 1)
Lucario: (1st: 1, 5th: 1, 3rd*: 1, 4th*: 1, 5th*: 3)
Falco: (2nd: 1, 5th: 2, 7th: 1, 3rd*: 1 4th*: 1, 5th*: 2, 7th*: 1)
Wario: (2nd: 1, 5th: 1, 7th: 2, 1st*: 1, 2nd*: 1, 3rd*: 2, 4th*: 1, 7th*: 1)
Pikachu: (2nd: 1, 7th: 2, 4th*: 1)
Luigi: (2nd: 1, 7th: 1)
R.O.B.: (3rd: 1, 4th*: 1, 5th*: 1, 7th*: 1)
Sonic: (4th: 1, 7th: 2, 7th*: 1)
Lucas: (4th: 1, 3rd*: 1)
Donkey Kong: (4th: 1, 7th*: 1)
Samus: (4th: 1)
Marth: (5th: 2, 7th: 1, 1st*: 1, 3rd*: 2)
Pit: (5th: 1, 4th*: 1)
Toon Link: (5th: 1)
Ness: (5th: 1)
Kirby: (7th: 1)
Ice Climbers: (1st*: 1, 3rd*: 2, 4th*: 1, 7th*: 3)
Zelda & Sheik: (3rd*: 1)
Pokemon Trainer: (3rd*: 1)
Peach: (3rd*: 1)
Wolf: (5th*: 1)
Fox: (7th*: 1)Twenty-one characters have gotten top 8 at major tournaments by themselves. Getting top 8 at a major tournament even just once is a big deal; these characters are clearly capable if they are able to do this well even sometimes. I suggest it improbable that any of these characters are truly inviable.
That number grows to twenty-seven if you factor in characters that only got top 8 as a part of a strategy that involved multiple characters. That's 3/4 of the cast! Very oddly, Olimar is one of the characters not included...
Snake and Meta Knight have very close performances at this level with each having won four major tournaments by themselves this year. Meta Knight has more overall placements by a noticeable margin, but Snake does have a lead in the 1st* category meaning that it's actually somewhat accurate to claim that Snake is more of a major tournament winner than Meta Knight so far this year. In any case, these two are clearly the most successful characters of the year so far, though they are far from shutting out the rest of the cast.
Looking at the sheer number of characters who have been proven to be able to succeed in major tournaments, I find it really, really hard to see Meta Knight as restricting this game's diversity very much.
When staying home with a sick nine-year old, there's not much you can do.
Oh well, at least my parents pay me.
EDIT: AA, I love you, even if we have amazing differences in stage philosophy.
That actually shows a trend that I expected to see, too. Schweet.
Zolios
Smash Apprentice
I love how the argument reverted from Arguments about MK being broken or not to each side having repeated bad points.
Come to think of it, I don't play brawl competitively, so I shouldn't care about this at all. In fact I won't.
Edit: For the data that was posted by Ampharos, is there a possibility one can go and check which other characters the placings with the astericks played in order to get that placing?
God, I know this is going to come out wrong, but whatever:
Let's say someone played Fox and Metaknight, and achieved 2nd. When they placed, did you include their ranking for both the fox and the metaknight area? Or the more used character?
Come to think of it, I don't play brawl competitively, so I shouldn't care about this at all. In fact I won't.
Edit: For the data that was posted by Ampharos, is there a possibility one can go and check which other characters the placings with the astericks played in order to get that placing?
God, I know this is going to come out wrong, but whatever:
Let's say someone played Fox and Metaknight, and achieved 2nd. When they placed, did you include their ranking for both the fox and the metaknight area? Or the more used character?
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Are you seriously going to try to argue the slippery slope?
*Really wishes I could BAN people who try to bring up that argument, I swear to ****ing god*
It's less an argument of slippery slope and more an argument concerning how scrubby the mentality behind this is. That said, it's not hard to imagine that jump in logic, and "Slippery Slope" is defined as a potential fallacy and not a definite one.
FB Dj_Iskascribble
Frostbitten
........i dont care?
momochuu
Smash Legend
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Nice counter-argument, there.
jeez dog chill you shouldn't rage off orion's statement XD
There should be more people like AMazing Ampharos hes too good at this data stuff =D
I know some intelligent anti-bans are posting, anyone got an answer for why MK's recently used tricks to successfully bypass rules aren't reason enough to ban him on their own merit?
Zolios
Smash Apprentice
And we arrive to the core of the debate.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Reading him again he was just pointing out the scrubiness of the community.
My point still stands.
You came into the Ban Metaknight Debate my friend
Half the people here haven't even been to a tournament let alone won 1
XD
slowpoketales
Smash Rookie
because not all meta knights do this and the ones who do are treated like trash. Not like most Meta knight mains aren't already insulted enough for using a top tier, omgbroken character etc.
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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When somebody can prove that EDC has been used to gamebreaking effect consistently, it's bannable on its own merit.
Unfortunately, theory and reality are not the same and conjecture cannot be used as a basis for bans.
Worth a try right? XD
Dr. Tuen
Smash Lord
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I believe EDC is when the Dimensional cape hits the ground and extends. There's no c-stick tapping involved, it just yields some more invisible time when you go from air to ground. so you can hit the ground at an angle and when you put the air time together with the ground time, you get some extra distance.
Hopefully I got that right, I don't have videos though.
-Tuen
Hopefully I got that right, I don't have videos though.
-Tuen
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
don't mind him, he's just here because we permabanned him from trolling AiB
This deals with the EDC only, and assumes it isn't something that needs restricting (Which means it's a wash, because you can't prove that it's not a problem either).
MK bypassing rules specifically aimed to restrict planking while still successfully planking and sneaking in mini-IDC's when they're illegal has not been addressed, nor has a reasonable enforcement against it been proposed.
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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How would you ban it?
It's actually not possible.
I can't very easily debate this when I've never heard of an instance of this happening or, rather, seen proof of this happening. I'll leave it to somebody who has, in that case. It's a rather moot point otherwise, because all I've seen is theory that he can rather than evidence that he has.
cutter
Smash Champion
Zephron
Smash Ace
If he doesn't get banned, (I hope he does) then I want the rules currently addressing him to get much more specific and be much less tolerant.
momochuu
Smash Legend
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That's IDC, lol. Thanks for not making me feel invisible though. xD
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
I think that's completely different.
Ah so you're just trolling then Stingers, ok.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Took you 70 pages to figure that out? Step yo' game up HugS. *I use 40 post per pages because I'm not a silly man
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
lol dont see whats the hype with mk ban drama, kinda dumb imo. i mean jesus ffs, even if you do ban him (which i just wanna see how metagame turns out if he does get banned) NY/NJ will wont ban him cus that fcking mks are fcking meant to be born there, a mk fest looool esp since we have majority of pros who use him there so why bother, even if you do get SBR to vote the ban, nj/ny wont ban him in tourneys looool
besides that, kinda pointless debating in a more public thread, when majority of posters (like me :]) are pretty newb/scrub/n00b/nubcake, and will degrade some of the productive ban and anti ban discussion so kinda pointless debating in this imo, prolly better in the character boards or something idk lol.
besides that, kinda pointless debating in a more public thread, when majority of posters (like me :]) are pretty newb/scrub/n00b/nubcake, and will degrade some of the productive ban and anti ban discussion so kinda pointless debating in this imo, prolly better in the character boards or something idk lol.
Laijin
Smash Hero
MK ban should happen.
It will destroy the brawl community.
Everyone knows it.
It will destroy the brawl community.
Everyone knows it.
This is the part that terrifies me, because it probably will, and honestly, I've invested a lot of time in this community, made a ton of friends, etc, which is why I'm willing to sit at this thread all day in an attempt to make sure that it doesn't happen.
Okay, my memory was faulty - I don't have a direct name, I have someone who says video evidence exists. Presumably he can provide it. I will quote him for reference:
So assuming Praxis is truthful (Do you have reason to doubt him?) MK in the hands of a skilled player can simply bypass bans on his IDC by only using it occasionally, at moments of extreme need, and be effectively unpunishable.
When a rule is unenforcable, a stricter option needs to go in. I've been told that we don't ban a character's move entirely, but it sounds like with MK you're going to have to ban his dimensional cape or ban him if you want this to be solved.
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
Actually... this kind of points out the opposite. For starters, this shows that Metaknight leaves just about everyone in the dust and has more than double the placings of the second place character when you add up the totals, Snake. Second, look at all who the characters are who have won. Aside from Lucario (who was probably Azen who quit Brawl earlier this year), the other characters who won a major tournament are the closest things that Metaknight has to counters or are already very high ranking (King Dedede and Game and Watch) and even then it was only one win from each of them except Snake. With this being said, it further highlights that in higher levels of competition, you are pretty much forced to beat a high ranking Metaknight in order to win a major tournament. As other people have said, you basically have a game that's centralized around beating one character at the moment. As argued before, Snake owes a decent amount of his success to Metaknight and being the character that goes the closest with him.
Also, I kind of raise an eyebrow at your definition of succeed. If anything, "succeeding" is getting first on a regular basis. As Ankoku's thread shows, when you throw in all the tournament results together, the gap between Metaknight to Snake and then to the rest of the cast becomes radically clear.
PottyJokes
Smash Apprentice
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let's ban MK and let snake dominate instead. cool!!!
Rykoshet
Smash Champion
voted yes because I'm bitter
I actually have my own reasons but seriously like I'd breathe a sigh of relief if his ****** *** were gone.
I actually have my own reasons but seriously like I'd breathe a sigh of relief if his ****** *** were gone.
Snake has bad matchups, people would learn to fight him.
People have learned to fight MK and it's still argued whether he has a single bad matchup or not.
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