Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Xyro77]

SoR was just poking wholes in Xyro's argument using Zelda.

Pretty much saying that you can't just list off the great abilities that a character has to support that the character is ban worthy. SoR listed off Zelda's qualities while neglecting all her flaws similar to what Xyro did heh.

(So other people don't keep quoting you)

wholes?

the moves i mentioned are the moves he can use on the cast at will at any given point in time. the moves that zelda no name kid brought up are only viable in rare instances......again, you anti ban aint to smart.

And hes samus, his kind will never go even or better than MK. Its D3 that makes her unviable.


I forgot you had a hunch for banning stuff xyro, such as d3s infinite grabs. Whatever helps you is fine uh?

To be honest, ive banned 2 things. ICG with ddd and metaknight.....2 broken things.

 

[Sosuke]

I don't think DDD's infinite is a problem.

 

[swordgard]

wholes?

the moves i mentioned are the moves he can use on the cast at will at any given point in time. the moves that zelda no name kid brought up are only viable in rare instances......again, you anti ban aint to smart.





To be honest, ive banned 2 things. ICG with ddd and metaknight.....2 broken things.

Stop insulting anti ban seriously, it shows you cant argue properly.


Either way, i fail to see how infinite chaingrab with D3 makes the game overcentralize around D3. You also banned infinites on the walls, which can be avoided since only temp walls exist in the ruleset, dont get grabbed in such positions its simple. And you said it yourself, MK cant be cped, but D3 sure can. No john.


As for metaknight, bring me evidence of forced overcentralization.

 

[SuperStar21]

I just dont like infinites overall.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

xyro is a nazi.

and the brawl pro ban community has small peepees.

its pretty apparent.

i could list at least one character from almost every fighting game to date that has no bad matchups and basically can't be counterpicked.

you pro ban homos are seriously over reacting and need to learn to learn basically.

learn to play a fighting game competitively and grow along with it

(yes, learn to learn)

 

[Sosuke]

Insulting people over their thoughts on a video game really makes you seem like a 12 year old.

 

[Hobobloke]

Banning D3's infinite is in no way "a stupid rule" It'd clearly broken, easy to perform and takes away skill involved in a match.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

shiek chain grabbed 0 to death 2/3s of the characters in melee and we never banned it.

we dealt with it, learned, and the game got better.

it took us longer than a year and two months tho.

 

[Serris]

I don't think DDD's infinite is a problem.

Play against Dedede with any of the following characters, then try and say that again:

• Bowser
• Donkey Kong
• Luigi
• Mario
• Samus

you pro ban homos are seriously over reacting and need to learn to learn basically.

And you need to shut the **** up and "learn" how to be mature about telling someone to shut the **** up, instead of aimlessly bashing the people who make up the side of an argument you don't agree with.

 

[Xerit]

Ok heres why I personally think MK is ban worthy.

He breaks CP system because he can't be CP'd and can be used to CP anyone and go at worst even (meaning he is ALWAYS the best secondary in fact, and usually the best main in practice).

He breaks the recovery system by being the only character in the game who will only ever be gimped if the player makes a critical error. Other characters you can do everything right and still end up gimped. This is not he case with MK.

His moves on an individual basis are not broken, and on an individual basis can be pointed to as not broken when compared with another characters move (IE: Tornado isn't broken because DeDeDe can Pivot Grab it). However when all of his moves are taken out of individual context and combined into one character the overwhelming frame and combo advantage given to that character in my oppinion breaks the game because it makes him stronger by a large margin than the rest of the cast.

He (and I hate that I have to use this stupid buzzword) overcentralizes the metagame because of the above factors. Your character is viable if and only if you can compete roughly evenly with MK. He is so popular and powerful despite having few matchups that are ridiculously in his favor that he makes the rest of the cast decide their viability based upon their ability to beat MK.

IDC and Planking were banned specifically as checks to make this character less powerful, instead of just banning the character. Supposedly G&W can plank just as well, i'll need to see that to believe it but even so G&W does not have the other factors presented in his favor as well as this one.

EDC a new glitch found to do basically what IDC did on a more limited basis is as broken as IDC is (when not used for stalling, which people have pointed out no human could do with IDC forever anyway) and is less detectable and harder to monitor. You could try to ban it, but once again it would be easier and more efficient to simply ban the character.

All of these TOGETHER not separately but TOGETHER in my oppinion make him worthy of a ban.

Not that my oppinion or anyone else outside the actual TO's and rumored MK main heavy SBR matters. Oh well, if he doesn't get banned I'll probably just pick him up and use him as a secondary whenever I feel like cheesing my way to victory. I've played him before, hes learnable up to a tournament quality in about a week so its not like it would be hard.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

he breaks the cp system. . . .

is that seriously all you guys have??

dear god you guys are morons.

i cant help it.

im done here.

hes not getting banned so i dont know why im posting to people who dont think rationally.

 

[Exceladon City]

If you play a character that gets infinited then you know what's to happen if you go against DDD. CP or don't get grabbed and if you do get grabbed pray that you either (a) Mash out or (b) they screw it up. The rule here is DDD's CG must end immediately at 300% besides that makes DDD not as amazing if he can't CG people an infinite amount of times. I think you banned it because you main Samus. L2ZeroSuit

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Play against Dedede with any of the following characters, then try and say that again:

• Bowser
• Donkey Kong
• Luigi
• Mario
• Samus

If you want to win at a tourney you SHOULD NOT play those characters anyways. They all suck.

 

[Serris]

he breaks the cp system. . . .

is that seriously all you guys have??

dear god you guys are morons.

i cant help it.

im done here.

hes not getting banned so i dont know why im posting to people who dont think rationally.

It's called "read the first post." All the arguments are presented there.

If you want to win at a tourney you SHOULD NOT play those characters anyways. They all suck.

Donkey Kong is being presented as a possible counter to Meta Knight by the anti-ban side. Make sense, please.

 

[Sosuke]

Certain characters are always expected to have secondaries in competitive play.

 

[Xerit]

he breaks the cp system. . . .

is that seriously all you guys have??

dear god you guys are morons.

i cant help it.

im done here.

hes not getting banned so i dont know why im posting to people who dont think rationally.

And your argument for anti-ban is?

Oh yes i forgot.

"Pro ban is all homos,lololol mk isn't broken."

Grow up please.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

It's called "read the first post." All the arguments are presented there.



.

read em.

they're all trash too.

just like brawls pro ban community

the only thing that makes sense for a ban is edc and you tards are just bringing up a completely useless argument with the counterpick bs

 

[hinkage]

He (and I hate that I have to use this stupid buzzword) overcentralizes the metagame because of the above factors. Your character is viable if and only if you can compete roughly evenly with MK. He is so popular and powerful despite having few matchups that are ridiculously in his favor that he makes the rest of the cast decide their viability based upon their ability to beat MK.

That is really not true. All of the low tier characters VS MK have 40-60 or less -- minus Bowser. Bowser is 45-55 with MK.

Now look at Marth. Has 60-40 or more on all low tiers. Who makes them non-viable now??

 

[Xerit]

read em.

they're all trash too.

just like brawls pro ban community

Another well thought out counter argument by the anti-ban side.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

And your argument for anti-ban is?

Oh yes i forgot.

"Pro ban is all homos,lololol mk isn't broken."

Grow up please.

dont change the subject please

 

[Sosuke]

Just report stupid posts.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Just report stupid posts.

cuz in real life youd get stuck in your ****

 

[Hobobloke]

@Oreo:
First match when it's double blind character selection you pick someone who is infinited and they pick DDD there goes the first match and puts them in an advantage.

 

[Xerit]

That is really not true. All of the low tier characters VS MK have 40-60 or less -- minus Bowser. Bowser is 45-55 with MK.

Now look at Marth. Has 60-40 or more on all low tiers. Who makes them non-viable now??

Marth however is made non-viable by MK.

My argument was never that MK hade matchups ridiculously in his favor (though I think hes under rated in the majority of his matchups) my point was that his popularity combined with his good (yet still in the realm of beatable) matchups make him the "character to beat" so to speak.

Because while you may or may not run into a Marth in any given tournament. You WILL run into 2-3 metaknights AT LEAST on the way to the top.

Appologies if I didn't make that clear enough in my first post.

 

[Hobobloke]

im done here.

Please stay true to your word, insulting people is not productive and extremely immature.

 

[4nace]

Stop insulting anti ban seriously, it shows you cant argue properly.

Haha, i never even said i was anti-ban and was attacked for putting a 'w' before the word hole =P.

The WHOLE ban argument seems useless. Super Smash Brothers Brawl is the most character-oriented fighting game to date. The game changes drastically depending on who is playing which character, and seems like people are taking out their frustration over the game on one specific character.


Sure Metaknight has a lot of options and nullifies a lot of characters' tricks, but i feel like he makes the game better because his match-ups are all really close to 50-50 or not much higher. I would much rather have the game dominated by one character with all 60-40 match-ups, than have a game where every character has both 90-10 and 10-90 match-ups.

That type of game would get annoying very quickly as who wins would be dictated by their character choice.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Metaknight helps cover the fact that all the matchups play so differently since he has no counters and only hard-counters a couple characters.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

dude, you are zelda.........ROFL. your kind will never be better than meta or go even. lol

you have to admit though, the retort was a good read :golf clap:

 

[AvaricePanda]

Just to let you guys know, i held a meta banned event this past saturday(hobo 17) and it brought in a world record 100 people. For a metabanned event, this is historic. So a few days ago when i said my attendance improved due to meta being banned, i was right.

So far, HOBO 12,16,17 have been growing each time.


swordguard, the sbr is one sided on the metaban thing. its rigged to be in the anti-ban favor(in my opinion)

Because there's more hype each time. There aren't many metabanned events aside from your tournaments, and yours was easily the most hyped. It's only obvious that there's going to be more people the last time. It doesn't have a direct correlation to banning MK, as hobo10, hobo11, WHOBO, all had more people. You can't especially pin those on outside influences, because I can do the same for the attendance that you got with your metabanned events.

Depending on how well they're run/hyped they are, circuits often grow in attendance. There isn't evidence to suggest that less people go to something the longer it's out.

Also, Genesis, Apex, CoT4, soon S.N.E.S. and Pound4. They're all national tournaments with MK allowed that had a TON of people show up.

There is no concrete evidence that you have to suggest that banning MK brings in more people for tournaments.

How come I've never been refuted when I said that the CP system is hardly used enough in mid and especially high levels of play for MK to have to have a bad match-up, and even ones are just fine? People keep saying that he breaks the CP system because he can't be counterpicked, and not only does he not break the system because he CAN be counterpicked, but the CP system isn't used enough at mid-high levels of play for that to even be a reason.

If you want specifics, I can scourge around my 10 other posts in this thread saying exactly that.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Marth however is made non-viable by MK.

My argument was never that MK hade matchups ridiculously in his favor (though I think hes under rated in the majority of his matchups) my point was that his popularity combined with his good (yet still in the realm of beatable) matchups make him the "character to beat" so to speak.

Because while you may or may not run into a Marth in any given tournament. You WILL run into 2-3 metaknights AT LEAST on the way to the top.

Appologies if I didn't make that clear enough in my first post.

This is not a guarantee. Depending on your region and who comes to a tournament, you may run into absolutely no MKs or 5.

While MK is Marth's worst match-up, it isn't 70-30 or 75-25 bad. It's certainly winnable.

In other news, mikeHAZE, NEO, Bardull.

 

[Xerit]

Haha, i never even said i was anti-ban and was attacked for putting a 'w' before the word hole =P.

The WHOLE ban argument seems useless. Super Smash Brothers Brawl is the most character-oriented fighting game to date. The game changes drastically depending on who is playing which character, and seems like people are taking out their frustration over the game on one specific character.


Sure Metaknight has a lot of options and nullifies a lot of characters' tricks, but i feel like he makes the game better because his match-ups are all really close to 50-50 or not much higher. I would much rather have the game dominated by one character with all 60-40 match-ups, than have a game where every character has both 90-10 and 10-90 match-ups.

That type of game would get annoying very quickly as who wins would be dictated by their character choice.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Metaknight helps cover the fact that all the matchups play so differently since he has no counters and only hard-counters a couple characters.

I can think of very few instances of 90/10 or 10/90 matchups. Mostly because no one who actually talks in matchups is generally willing to give those kinda scores to either side.

The game without MK would be more CP heavy, but it wouldn't be "rock paper scissors". For instance I play D3 (for now), if MK was banned i'd lost a 45/55, and Snake/Falco (for instance i'm not really trying to predict) would become more popular. Which means i'd gain more 60/40 (snake) and more 30/70 (falco) matchups.

30/70 is pretty bad, Falco is a tough fight for DeDeDe but its still winnable, and hes also CP'able to a character like Kirby who goes much better against Falco.

Honestly from your argument it sounds to me like you'd prefer a MK-Only tournament where everyone is 50/50. Either that or you play MK and you like the fact that most matches are skewed in your favor (Not trying to be insulting or dismissive with this. Thats the nature of competition).

 

[Sosuke]

Don't use "mid level play" in your post, and your point will sound much more addressable.

 

[Xerit]

This is not a guarantee. Depending on your region and who comes to a tournament, you may run into absolutely no MKs or 5.

While MK is Marth's worst match-up, it isn't 70-30 or 75-25 bad. It's certainly winnable.

In other news, mikeHAZE, NEO, Bardull.

Not being rude here, but can you find me a non-MK-Banned tournament without a MK in it? Or even one with just one in it? (Preferably one with 50 people or more, weekly neighborhood tournaments or something shouldn't really count I don't think)

I'd imagine even if you can the list would be pretty small.

However I'd be willing to be if you looked for a tournaments without Marth (or just 1 Marth) there would be many more of those.

Which is precisely my point. Its not a guarentee. Its just statistically very likely.

Edit:

@above

Is that directed at me, and if so what are you referring to?

EDIT Again:

Also at AvaricePanda:

Who exactly CP's MK when he goes even or better with all the cast? I always thought (and I guess I could be wrong) the term CP was used to describe a character which does abormally well against another character (IE: Falco CP's D3).

 

[Alus]

So what is going on in here around now?

I don't want to read everything since my last post because it is a 99% chance that the time spent will be a waste of time...

 

[Xerit]

So what is going on in here around now?

I don't want to read everything since my last post because it is a 99% chance that the time spent will be a waste of time...

SSDD

10char

 

[Sosuke]

It was meant for Avarice. (but I didn't read your post >_>)

I just got ninja'd. D:

 

[Masmasher@]

So what im hearing mostly now is popularity arguements

 

[4nace]

@ Xerit

I'm not saying that Brawl without Metaknight would become all 90-10 matchups or anything like that, I'm just saying that because metaknight has matchups that are all slightly in his favor but that are usually winnable he helps cover the fact that this game is heavily reliant on who you are playing.

In comparison to melee, someone who was amazing at the game would easily beat someone slightly competitive regardless of who was playing which character. But in brawl, that is not really the case.

Atleast with metaknight, you know what you are getting yourself into, and its not an infinity/terrible matchup (unless you play marth or toon link).

And no, i don't play metaknight and i complain about him everyday to my friends who 2/3 of them play only metaknight.

 

[Xerit]

So what im hearing mostly now is popularity arguements

If you want to disregard my whole post about his move list, breaking the CP and recovery system, and multiple banned (or bannable) strategies and glitches in order to dismiss arguments you'd rather not address.

Yes.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I've changed my opinion. I don't like Brawl, so I am pro Meta-ban and anti-infinite ban.

 

[BSP]

ok, i have a question now: does CP' ing someone mean you put the matchup in your favor, or you just lower your opponents advantage?