Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[salaboB]

Definite spawn points being "somewhere on, or above the stage"?

Even if you call that a definite spawn point (lol), you can't tell me they have regular spawn times, or some kind of pattern to which items spawn in what order.

Random =/= competetive.

EDIT: Whoops double post. This thread moves so fast I figured someone would get in before me. Sorry.

There actually are patterns of locations, ways you can control the stage to maximize your chances of getting the items -- and the players that know where they are and hold that portion of the stage will do better than the ones who just hold random bits wherever they feel like defending.

It's not just "somewhere on, or above the stage".

 

[Sosuke]

BBQTV, you have an utter misconception of how life works.
Not every lesson you learn at the end of a cartoon holds true.

 

[BBQTV]

I figured you'd come back with the "lol your bad" retort.

what did you expect you were setting your self up you even admit it so are you bad?

 

[Pyrostormer]

Random =/= competetive.

that's not true...read some sirlin! (yes, I'm about to quote sirlin. i hate when people say "noob resorted to quoting sirlin, lol your argument sucks now". the dude knows his stuff, and he's good at writing about it. so, i'm gonna quote him.)

Consider Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. It's arguably the best Street Fighter game, or at least top 2 or 3 of all the SFs ever made. What's so surprising is that is has luck. Damage done is adjusted based on luck, so sometimes it does more, sometimes less. Getting dizzy is also modified by luck, so occasionally you get dizzy after just a couple hits, but it's rare. The timing windows to perform specials and supers are random lengths. Usually they are set to ok numbers and even at the shortest lengths you can still do all the moves, but in practice it causes experts to occasionally miss their move at a key time. (Again they could have had better timing and it would come out.) When you hit the enemy with a projectile, the game slows down for drama and this usually affects nothing gameplay-wise. But if you are doing a combo with multiple projectiles like Guile's sonic boom in the same combo, there is a 50% chance you'll miss one of the later sonic booms because of the way the slowdown is implemented. This (bug?) actually prevents a 100% combo with Guile from being practical, so it's a good thing it's there. A case of randomness saving the day from a bad situation.

So this SF game (people call it ST for Super Turbo) has all this randomness and yet is considered one of--if not THE--best SF game for tournaments. Is it a coincidence that it has all this randomness and is considered good? All the players say they hate that it has randomness. And yet perhaps it's kept the game more interesting than it would have been, I don't know. MOST of that game is skill, and there isn't enough randomness to really ruin it so that's probably a key element. There's just enough randomness to affect the game, but not by much. Note that in HD Remix, I have eliminated some of the randomness for executing moves, but that's about it.

Randomness is weird in that no one claims to want it, yet it shows up in good games anyway.

even if randomness is anti-competitive in theory, it never actually hurts the game in question. it takes some level of skill to adapt to semi-random factors (it's really only semi-random because you know where the items will show up, just not when. but you do have a basic idea of when they'll show up, so...), just like it takes a level of skill to adapt to different characters or stages.

 

[swordgard]

BBQTV, you have an utter misconception of how life works.
Not every lesson you learn at the end of a cartoon holds true.

Most lessons are true, we just feel like we can bend the rules for the "greater good" when we are actually doing something wrong and feel like we have to justify ourselves.

 

[Xerit]

There actually are patterns of locations, ways you can control the stage to maximize your chances of getting the items -- and the players that know where they are and hold that portion of the stage will do better than the ones who just hold random bits wherever they feel like defending.

It's not just "somewhere on, or above the stage".

Ok I guess I was blowing it a bit out of proportion. You're right there are certain spots that spawn more than others. There is however no pattern to where, or which items will spawn at any given time. Its random, and random is bad for competition.

I've read the Item Play thread and I think it has potential as its own separate style of tournaments. However I don't think its the solution to the MK problem, nor do i think its something I'd personally like to see applied across the board to all tournaments.

@BBQTV

You're obviously one of those irrational people who I referenced earlier as being pointless to argue with. So I'm just gonna go ahead and ignore you until you post something up worth actually addressing. Cheers.

@Above

Listen you can believe in yourself and your character all you want. If you chose poorly and you're bad at the game all the belief in the world wont save you. Which is what I believe SasukeBowser was referencing with his cartoon comment.

 

[BBQTV]

BBQTV, you have an utter misconception of how life works.
Not every lesson you learn at the end of a cartoon holds true.

thank you for capitalising BBQTV most people dont thats all i have to say.

 

[phi1ny3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gEOzGX6OFc

I agree. Items on, please.

That video is so lol, I love the green shell regrab jump.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

If MK was that broken with items on (He isn't), he would have won Evo 08 easily. Same with Sonic as well.

If items can fix what Brawl is going through with MK, bring them in please. If MK gets banned here, I'm so running items 100%.

 

[Pyrostormer]

xerit, items are part of the balance of the game. i guarantee meta knight will no longer be so dominant with items on. the traits that make him godly are all mitigated to a certain extent.

crazy recovery? can now be safely edgeguarded with throwable projectiles
transcendent priority? if you're attacking with a disjointed hitbox, it doesn't matter.
tornado? most items go through the tornado, meaning every character will have a reliable option to the tornado.

will all of these things be able to be countered at once? no, which is part of the balance of items. the balance that was intended to be in the game from the start, but we (the smash community) disrupted the balance by banning items from the get-go.

let me tell you a story from a long time in the past, when the smash scene was very young. super smash bros melee was a new game, and there were some dedicated players from the start that formed a community. this community's headquarters was smashboards.com, where the community could discuss things about the game with other informed players.

circa 2003, a debate in the community emerged about whether items should be used in tournaments. in the start, items were unquestioned in their validity - everyone played with items on, even in tournaments. if you look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQGbwERf4eA , you'll see a match with the famous Ken, the king of smash. but...what's this?! there's items on the field! in a tournament? well yeah, because in the west coast, items were kept on.

but in the east coast, items were turned off because they said it hurt competition. this debate went on between the east coast and the west coast for awhile, and in the end they turned items off. do you want to know why? You couldn't turn off exploding capsules. That's it! That's the only reason that items were turned off. If a Marth swung his sword at the enemy and an exploding capsule happened to appear at the same time, he'd blow himself up and (maybe) die. That's not fair for competition, I agree. but then brawl came out.

the community stuck to its old ways and continued to keep items off without even questioning whether they should be put back on. there was no debate about items at all, people in the community just thought anyone that used items were noobs and they weren't fit in competitive play. but now, in brawl, we have the option to turn off exploding crates and capsules. there is no way for an item to spawn and randomly kill you in the middle of the move (because things like bombs will be turned off too, of course). so...what reason is there to keep them off now? there is none!

 

[Sosuke]

Bring items back to stop MK from getting banned.


Haha, you guys crack me up. <3

 

[BBQTV]

maybe we should unban items but witch ones.

 

[MarKO X]

LOL @ this thing about MK not being dominant with items.

EDC says hi.

OMG, I got a poisonous mushroom! It's ok, I can just disappear till it wears off.

 

[Pyrostormer]

ummm...mark, you do know that's a banned tactic, right? -.-

there's already an items list btw. just go to the tactical forum, and look for the "items standard play" sticky.

 

[BBQTV]

LOL @ this thing about MK not being dominant with items.

EDC says hi.

OMG, I got a poisonous mushroom! It's ok, I can just disappear till it wears off.

MK may not be as hard to kill with items or maybe MK will be worse.

 

[Ajyle]

Bring items back to stop MK from getting banned.


Haha, you guys crack me up. <3

I know right

Meta knight CAN use these said items to his advantage and then some.

 

[Xerit]

xerit...

When the scene was young tournaments had items. Now they don't.

In my experience the people who want items back (at least those who want them back universally and not in their own tournaments) are a small minority compared to those who still believe they do nothing but hurt competition (a majority of whom I am a part).

The inability to turn off exploding capsules may have been the original reason for taking them out however in the current competetive scene I've heard nothing but scorn for even the idea of bringing items back. I think this is because people have found the game more enjoyable with this element of randomness taken out, and I agree with that view.

Items are inherently random in their nature. They don't spawn in set places, in a set order, and I don't think (I'm going out on a limb here because I don't play enough to really know for sure, sorry if i'm wrong) they even spawn with a set interval between them. Without a way to predict and plan your game around what items will spawn where and when I believe item play would make the game less competitive.

I wish you nothing but good luck in getting an Items On scene going (I'd probably even participate) but I doubt very seriously that Item Play will become the standard (and for that I'm very thankful).


EDIT:

It doesn't matter whether item play will make MK worse or better. It makes no sense to change the entire ruleset to balance one character. It already makes little sense that we keep adding more and more rules in order to keep that same character from abusing glitches and unfair tactics instead of just removing him. The fact that this argument is even being put forward in reference to "fixing the MK problem" is downright ridiculous.

Honestly I'm beginning to think this whole Item derail is one big troll.

 

[Masmasher@]

By having a set of abilities which allow you to be un-gimpable which is a cornerstone of the competetive part of this game. The "recovery system" is my way of referencing the part of the game played off the stage where one side is attempting to gimp the other. MK breaks this system by being straight up un-gimpable unless the user makes a critical error. Something no other character can boast.

True enough it is a subjective statement. It is however not central to my argument so I wont pursue it any further.

Nor does you wanting to go the conservative route and give matchup ratios the same way IGN gives game reviews make you right. 7-10 isn't a review scale, and 50-70 isn't a matchup scale. My point of view, obviously not yours.

I didn't say individual abilities are a reason. In fact I specifically said they aren't. Twice. However his movelist and frame data taken as a whole along with the other factors I listed are enough in my view to warrant a ban. Your criteria may require that he have a single "god move" which destroys the entire cast (a la Akuma) in order to be bannable, my criteria obviously does not.

Just because I don't want to come off as a high and mighty jerk by forcing all my views on others as undeniable facts shouldn't make my views and arguments less valid. Of course since the convention in this thread so far has been to state opinions and views as facts I realize bucking the trend will probably have a detrimental effect on the way my argument is percieved by the elitists who belive their views are immutable facts. However I don't think those people can be reasoned with anyway so I don't really care if they see my argument as less impactful because its honest.

Going by frame data is a horrible way to advocate for a ban. in that case many more characters in the history would be bannned. There are too many other contingencies to take into a account and looking at a character that way is shallow.

Again you arent going to gimp meta knight because of his light weight.. you are going to kill him. some characters are more inclined to be killed than gimped and vice versa falco, jigglypuff obvious examples.

 

[Pyrostormer]

really, the only argument against items being left out is, "they're random! randomness isn't good for competition!" And really, that's not even 100% true.

LUCK isn't good for competition.

Randomness =/= Luck.

Items are inherently random in their nature. They don't spawn in set places, in a set order, and I don't think (I'm going out on a limb here because I don't play enough to really know for sure, sorry if i'm wrong) they even spawn with a set interval between them. Without a way to predict and plan your game around what items will spawn where and when I believe item play would make the game less competitive.

wrong. they have set spawn points. they don't spawn in a set order, but there is a queue for where and what items spawn. you'll never see 10 pokeballs in a row in the same place, for instance. the game won't allow it. afaik, items never spawn in the same place twice in a row, they always switch spawn points. and yes, THERE ARE SET SPAWN POINTS! They don't spawn in random places!

the fact that items AREN'T inherently random is why they add another level of skill to the game. they are semi-random, in that you don't know what items will spawn, but they aren't totally random (you have a general idea of where and when they'll spawn).

 

[Sosuke]

really, the only argument against items being left out is, "they're random! randomness isn't good for competition!" And really, that's not even 100% true.

LUCK isn't good for competition.

Randomness =/= Luck.

Stop being silly.

There is a difference between a bomb-omb landing in front of you and a sticker landing in front of you.

It's random.
It's luck.
It's RANDOM LUCK.


Not to mention the ridiculous number of broken items/ tactics with items.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Wow once again, the lulz here are top tier. Seriously from both sides, it's just ****ing amazing.

>_<

 

[Masmasher@]

xerit, items are part of the balance of the game. i guarantee meta knight will no longer be so dominant with items on. the traits that make him godly are all mitigated to a certain extent.

crazy recovery? can now be safely edgeguarded with throwable projectiles
transcendent priority? if you're attacking with a disjointed hitbox, it doesn't matter.
tornado? most items go through the tornado, meaning every character will have a reliable option to the tornado.

will all of these things be able to be countered at once? no, which is part of the balance of items. the balance that was intended to be in the game from the start, but we (the smash community) disrupted the balance by banning items from the get-go.

let me tell you a story from a long time in the past, when the smash scene was very young. super smash bros melee was a new game, and there were some dedicated players from the start that formed a community. this community's headquarters was smashboards.com, where the community could discuss things about the game with other informed players.

circa 2003, a debate in the community emerged about whether items should be used in tournaments. in the start, items were unquestioned in their validity - everyone played with items on, even in tournaments. if you look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQGbwERf4eA , you'll see a match with the famous Ken, the king of smash. but...what's this?! there's items on the field! in a tournament? well yeah, because in the west coast, items were kept on.

but in the east coast, items were turned off because they said it hurt competition. this debate went on between the east coast and the west coast for awhile, and in the end they turned items off. do you want to know why? You couldn't turn off exploding capsules. That's it! That's the only reason that items were turned off. If a Marth swung his sword at the enemy and an exploding capsule happened to appear at the same time, he'd blow himself up and (maybe) die. That's not fair for competition, I agree. but then brawl came out.

the community stuck to its old ways and continued to keep items off without even questioning whether they should be put back on. there was no debate about items at all, people in the community just thought anyone that used items were noobs and they weren't fit in competitive play. but now, in brawl, we have the option to turn off exploding crates and capsules. there is no way for an item to spawn and randomly kill you in the middle of the move (because things like bombs will be turned off too, of course). so...what reason is there to keep them off now? there is none!

^ This, this, this people is the exact thing that happened.
Melee works with our guidelines. The engine supports it and its been researched and made to work.
Brawl.... well you see where you guys are now. It doesnt turn out so well.

 

[Pyrostormer]

Stop being silly.

There is a difference between a bomb-omb landing in front of you and a sticker landing in front of you.

It's random.
It's luck.
It's RANDOM LUCK.


Not to mention the ridiculous number of broken items/ tactics with items.

Here are the facts, dude.

1. Items are not totally random. They can be predicted, and there will never be a legal item that can kill you if you hit it while it's spawning. That's the only reason items were banned in Melee, FYI.

2. Random variables in a controlled fashion results in a game that isn't especially luck-based.

3. There IS a difference between a bomb-omb and a sticker, which is why bomb-ombs are banned. There is no difference between a Fire-flower and a beam sword and a piece of food and a sandbag and a sticker, which is why all those items would be legal and a bomb would not.

 

[Xerit]

Going by frame data is a horrible way to advocate for a ban. in that case many more characters in the history would be bannned. There are too many other contingencies to take into a account and looking at a character that way is shallow.

Again you arent going to gimp meta knight because of his light weight.. you are going to kill him. some characters are more inclined to be killed than gimped and vice versa falco, jigglypuff obvious examples.

So I can't use his move list, and I can't use his frame data. Before we continue is there anything else you'd like to add to the list of "inadmissable evidence"? Tournament results maybe?

I don't understand why people keep letting Anti-Ban say things like "You have no data to support your conclusions" and then with the next breath say "All your data is terrible and can't be used". Its a catch 22 of the worst sort.

Light weight? MK survives to very respectable percentages with proper DI/Momentum Cancelling etc etc.

Why should he be the only character (lightweight or no) which is un-gimpable? Especially when you factor in how good his own gimping game is.

Falco and Jigglypuff are both gimpable, Jiggs is gimpable AND flat out killable. I don't see how they support your argument.

 

[BBQTV]

four types of tournaments

1.ban MK no items
2. no ban MK no items
3.items on ban MK
4. items on no ban MK

my bad for putting 5 b4

 

[MarKO X]

ummm...mark, you do know that's a banned tactic, right? -.-

there's already an items list btw. just go to the tactical forum, and look for the "items standard play" sticky.

Ummm... pyro: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8030535&postcount=6954

straight from the man from the SBR himself.

 

[Pyrostormer]

Mark, Extended Dimensional Cape is just the Infinite Dimensional Cape glitch, but not done infinitely. Using it for like half a second or so, to cross the stage. It's not a seperate tactic. If Spadefox said that, he has no idea what he's talking about. IDC is the name of the glitch, EDC is a use of it.

 

[JUDGE]

wtf???? mk AND items???? that is ****ing stupid!!! he has an incredible glide toss
that would be the end for competitive play!!

 

[swordgard]

Here are the facts, dude.

1. Items are not totally random. They can be predicted, and there will never be a legal item that can kill you if you hit it while it's spawning. That's the only reason items were banned in Melee, FYI.

2. Random variables in a controlled fashion results in a game that isn't especially luck-based.

3. There IS a difference between a bomb-omb and a sticker, which is why bomb-ombs are banned. There is no difference between a Fire-flower and a beam sword and a piece of food and a sandbag and a sticker, which is why all those items would be legal and a bomb would not.

You can predict how much time between each item, but not WHERE they will land, and that is still a random factor we cannot accept.

 

[Pyrostormer]

You can predict how much time between each item, but not WHERE they will land, and that is still a random factor we cannot accept.

I wonder how many times I have to say there are predetermined spawn points before people read it

 

[Xerit]

Here are the facts, dude.

1. Items are not totally random. They can be predicted, and there will never be a legal item that can kill you if you hit it while it's spawning. That's the only reason items were banned in Melee, FYI.

2. Random variables in a controlled fashion results in a game that isn't especially luck-based.

3. There IS a difference between a bomb-omb and a sticker, which is why bomb-ombs are banned. There is no difference between a Fire-flower and a beam sword and a piece of food and a sandbag and a sticker, which is why all those items would be legal and a bomb would not.

Really? You don't think I would have an advantage if I knocked you off the stage and a beam sword happened to spawn at my feet while I'm waiting for you to come back?

Sure I had skill in knocking you off the stage, but what skill did I excercise in getting lucky and having a beam sword spawn at my feet to seal the deal?

Thats the point we're trying to make. Items can, and would spawn at points in the game where it would give one side a ridiculous unfair and luck based advantage and may not return the favor for the other side. Which leads to a game based on luck.

If un-regulated, all items on games are like sitting down at a slot machine. Then regulated items are like sitting down at a poker table. Sure your skill might help you win sometimes, but all your skill can't beat a royale flush.


EDIT:
@Above

Ok I don't really know the spawn points but lets use a picture so you can see why we say its still random.

S****S***S***S
<--------------------->

FD-^ Spawn point = S

Ok, time for a spawn, which one is it going to?

You don't know. Why? Because its random. The spots are pre-determined, which one gets a spawn and when is not.

Edited a second time to attempt to fix my crappy picture.

 

[MarKO X]

I wonder how many times I have to say there are predetermined spawn points before people read it

I wonder how many times I gotta play Brawl to see that is false.

Edit: also, infinite and extended are two different things...... kinda like DDDs infinite chain grab being banned, but using the moving cg against the characters that can be I-CG'd being ok.

 

[Falconv1.0]

lol items, it's not happening. Ever. Just suggesting it is a sign of complete lunacy.

>_<

 

[Sosuke]

*facepalm* How can you be so dense as to not understand how ridiculous of an idea it is to add items to competitive play?

 

[Xerit]

*facepalm* How can you be so as to not understand how ridiculous of an idea it is to add items to competitive play?

I'm still pretty sure they are trolling, and I'm getting trolled hard.

On the off chance they are serious though it can't hurt to point out why they are wrong.

 

[Master Raven]

Will the EDC net me some hot Russian girls on the Internet?

 

[Falconv1.0]

Will the EDC net me some hot Russian girls on the Internet?

No.

Quiet desperation and about half a grand in cash will.

Stop with the bad jokes. =/

 

[Pyrostormer]

*facepalm* How can you be so as to not understand how ridiculous of an idea it is to add items to competitive play?

I don't know, I mean, Ken must be pretty ridiculous too, seeing as how he played with items for years and fervently fought for the Items Unbanned side for many years in Melee days.

There's just some irrational bias towards items from the Competitive Community that I don't understand.

Like, if you knock a person off the stage and a Beam Sword spawns, then good ****, you just got a Beam Sword. Same thing if a Peach got a Bomb, or a DDD got a Gordo. You're being rewarded for outplaying your opponent and getting him off the stage. If your opponent wanted the item, he shouldn't of gotten knocked off. Just because he didn't know it was going to be there is no excuse. If he were playing optimally, he would've realized it was about time for an item to spawn soon and planned accordingly if it were big enough of a deal.

No, you can't determine THE EXACT SPOT ON THE EXACT FRAME the item will come out. So what?

 

[Exceladon City]

Murphy's Law usually comes into effect in these situations. I like to refer to it as Sakurai's Law when it comes to Brawl to be specific. "What can go wrong in Brawl usually will." Like when your opponent is at a clear disadvantage and you can press the advantage but instead of pressing the advantage you trip right in front of them and the murder you for it. Same with items, you try to get the finishing blow and a capsule spawns right in front of you and guess what kiddies? It's a EXPLODING capsule. So yeah items should be banned regardless of whether you can make them balanced because there is still the off chance of getting an exploding capsule.

 

[Pyrostormer]

So yeah items should be banned regardless of whether you can make them balanced because there is still the off chance of getting an exploding capsule.

That's why they were banned in Melee. In Brawl, you can turn them off, so that's a nonfactor.