Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Sosuke]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Counterpick

 

[Xerit]

@ Xerit

I'm not saying that Brawl without Metaknight would become all 90-10 matchups or anything like that, I'm just saying that because metaknight has matchups that are all slightly in his favor but that are usually winnable he helps cover the fact that this game is heavily reliant on who you are playing.

In comparison to melee, someone who was amazing at the game would easily beat someone slightly competitive regardless of who was playing which character. But in brawl, that is not really the case.

Atleast with metaknight, you know what you are getting yourself into, and its not an infinity/terrible matchup (unless you play marth or toon link).

And no, i don't play metaknight and i complain about him everyday to my friends who 2/3 of them play only metaknight.

Which is one of the reasons I believe hes ban-worthy (breaking the CP system being being the perfect, un-counterpickable safe character).

However even without him most if not all upper tier characters have few matchups to no matchups which are flat out un-winnable. If they did they wouldn't be top tier. So while there might be slightly more variance in how much of an uphill or downhill battle it will be (as opposed to MK who virtually always fights on a slightly downhill slope) they balance eachother out and usually are never great enough to force a loss (insert obvious exceptions here).

MK doesn't have a "give and take" roughly even system. He is (almsot always) in the advantageous position. If that to you seems fair, i'm afraid I wont be able to convince you otherwise since the reasons that should be considered unfair should be self-evident.


EDIT:

@above

Thankyou SasukeBowser thats how I thought the term was supposed to be used.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ok, i have a question now: does CP' ing someone mean you put the matchup in your favor, or you just lower your opponents advantage?

the former, unless you are playing MK, ganon, or CF, in which case its the latter

 

[Masmasher@]

If you want to disregard my whole post about his move list, breaking the CP and recovery system, and multiple banned (or bannable) strategies and glitches in order to dismiss arguments you'd rather not address.

Yes.

You arent saying anything that hasnt been said already. You last post was just complaining about how many tournaments hes been in. Also congrats you know what moves metaknight has whoopee. Naming a characters attributes is not a valid reason why he should be banned. It simply shows hes a pinch above the other characters.
You can pick snake and get a even matchup. If you go by the numbers that much you must not have much faith in you skill or this game. Many other fighting games have had characters with 0 bad matchups and they have heathly metagames. Also he has better recovery that can simply go under his move list arguements which by itself is a very shallow one. Also there are other characters that have bannible stategies. Should you ban them.....no

 

[Xerit]

You arent saying anything that hasnt been said already. You last post was just complaining about how many tournaments hes been in. Also congrats you know what moves metaknight has whoopee. Naming a characters attributes is not a valid reason why he should be banned. It simply shows hes a pinch above the other characters.
You can pick snake and get a even matchup. If you go by the numbers that much you must not have much faith in you skill or this game. Many other fighting games have had characters with 0 bad matchups and they have heathly metagames. Also he has better recovery that can simply go under his move list arguements which by itself is a very shallow one. Also there are other characters that have bannible stategies. Should you ban them.....no

No, I'm not. As I said in my first post I just felt I'd share my reasons. I realize most of them line up with the original argument for banning him and I don't think thats an accident. However I don't agree with some of the OP pro-ban arguments (or at least the way they were presented).

Naming a characters attributes is not a valid reason to ban him you say? How then would you expect someone to explain why a character is better if we aren't allowed to reference his movelist in our explanation? Surely you don't think we're going to ban him because he has a shiny cape and a silly mask?

I could pick snake and have an even matchup, for that matter I could pick MK and have an even matchup. That however isn't the point. The point is, in my oppinion, that he breaks multiple parts of the game and that the game as a whole would benefit from his being banned.

Of those many other games how many have a fighting system comparable to Smash? Honestly i've never heard of a fighting game based entirely on ring outs/ recovery and increasing knockback.

I've already stated (twice) that I believe the "numbers" as you call them to be off.

I have more than enough confidence in my own ability (hence why I said I could probably pick up MK and be tournament viable in a week) and I don't see how that has any bearing on this argument at all.

However those characters probably don't break important parts of the game. MK in my oppinion does.

I believe in a game based on ring outs and recovery, that recovery is a big enough deal to be listed and evaluated separately from the his original move list. I would however entertain the idea that i'm wrong in this regard if you can provide a reason beyond "because you say so".

Bannable strategies refrencing what? D3's infinite chain grab? Thats much easier to monitor and enforce than IDC or EDC or Planking. How many instances of ICG have occured at major tournaments since its banning that haven't resulted in immediate DQ? I'd imagine none.

And IDC/EDC? You don't know because you can't monitor it or stop it because its hard to tell. [Edit: IDC meaning its use to escape precarious positions, obviously using IDC for 30 seconds or however long someone could actually manage to physically pull it off would be detectable]

Planking? It may not be as easy, but just youtube Plank and you'll see its still being done.

 

[Pyrostormer]

I don't know why everyone is quick to assume that the message here is "items on" is the answer to countering meta knight. No, the issue is, RANDOM EVERYTHING reduces the number of low tiers to abysmal characters.

[SSBB is a random event game no matter what you do. G&W is random, D3 is random, Peach is random etc.]

Somewhere in a previous discussion a person said they where gonna ignore that I brought up hot heads. Why, this allows a player to temporarily control the playing field (especially Fox, Falco, Wolf & Zelda), whether a character like meta can camp or not is not the issue. Controlling the playing field is the issue. Din's fire anyone? Srsly?

Someone also said that cracker launchers don't make a difference because Meta has good recovery and mobility. So what... Cracker launchers knock the enemy up, and has a huge blast radius. He isn't safe from it's effects by any means. Heavier characters and characters with SA frames have a better chance at surviving. I really don't see the argument here...

I guess everyone keeps thinking that I think aerial stalling will go away. No, but it will be counterable. Cracker launchers and HOTHEADS do this job well. How so? Hotheads control the field, cracker launchers make the air unsafe. What part am I missing here? Did anyone forget that springs are in this game as well, allow for aerial combat? smart-bombs people... srsly...

So what if Meta Knight can stall. So can everyone else. It's not as lopsided in this perspective, and the person on the ground has more options with items on. However, it is being said that Meta Knight will more then likely be in control of the match anyway. Says who? A Captain Falcon with beamsword in hand can more then hold off Meta Knight. Meta Knights ground game is not such a big deal with things like sandbag and land mines. What aren't you all getting?

Planking, umm... hotheads? Bob-bombs... smart-bombs...crates... boxes... assist trophies... pokeballs... Final Smashes... am I missing something here?

Why is everyone pretending that Meta Knight doesn't HAVE to land eventually depending on the stage. Why try to attack him when he is so high, you can simply wait until his jumps run out, or stall until he is in a good place to start an offensive. Please... who doesn't get this?

There are just way too many options to make characters more viable. Problem is... the Metagame has everyone fooled. People... SSBB is not SSBM. You need to wake up.

 

[swordgard]

Please... who doesn't get this?

Pro ban doesnt get it. Metaknight cannot be cped is their only argument now. Not a valid ban criteria either way.

 

[Xerit]

Peach and G&W were in Melee and Melee isn't random. But throw in D3 in SSBB and suddently its a random game? That doesn't make much sense friend.

The conventional wisdom is that items make the game MORE random (which is seen as a bad thing) and I tend to agree with this logic. Without some way to predict where a given item will spawn and when the ability of a well timed random spawned item to change the course of a match is one which is, and should be looked down upon.

Thats why items are, and hopefully will continue to be, banned and are irrelevant in this discussion.

Edit:

As to the relevant part of your post about how to counter Metaknights air game (the part not referencing bombs and hot heads) I in general agree that 'air camping' is punishable. However it is also stalling by the conventional definition (running away and avoiding conflict in order to run out the clock), which unless i'm mistaken is bannable.

"Stalling is defined as any action that deliberately avoids all conflict as to make the game unplayable. It involves the player using a move or technique to waste time, usually done in time matches or timed stock matches. Stalling is banned in tournaments, as tournaments use timed stock matches. "
- Smash Wiki

 

[Pyrostormer]

Without some way to predict where a given item will spawn and when the ability of a well timed random spawned item to change the course of a match is one which is, and should be looked down upon.

but then all characters have the same chance of getting the item if it's random...it evens out...the spawn points are controlled...this is simple stuff...

items...are not inherently bannable...they were only banned in melee because you couldn't turn off capsules...but brawl isn't melee...what's there to understand here?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Peach and G&W were in Melee and Melee isn't random. But throw in D3 in SSBB and suddently its a random game? That doesn't make much sense friend.

The conventional wisdom is that items make the game MORE random (which is seen as a bad thing) and I tend to agree with this logic. Without some way to predict where a given item will spawn and when the ability of a well timed random spawned item to change the course of a match is one which is, and should be looked down upon.

Thats why items are, and hopefully will continue to be, banned and are irrelevant in this discussion.

the only item related thing i only want to see on the platforms are shield dropped nades, zss' armor pieces, bombs from the link's, peanuts, and turnips

as for peach i pray to god i dodge the beam swords/bomb bombs

 

[Clai]

Not being rude here, but can you find me a non-MK-Banned tournament without a MK in it? Or even one with just one in it? (Preferably one with 50 people or more, weekly neighborhood tournaments or something shouldn't really count I don't think)

I'd imagine even if you can the list would be pretty small.

However I'd be willing to be if you looked for a tournaments without Marth (or just 1 Marth) there would be many more of those.

Which is precisely my point. Its not a guarentee. Its just statistically very likely.

Ken is probably the most overused character in SFIV. Every newb going out to his/her first tournament is likely to go Ken because he's easily recognizable as a SF character and he has a flaming shoryuken. There is likely to be at least 1 Ken in every large tournament just because of how recognizable he is.

However, Ken sucks. Put the most overused character in the game and combine it with the best character in the game and you get MK. Best and overused =/= ban-worthy.

shiek chain grabbed 0 to death 2/3s of the characters in melee and we never banned it.

we dealt with it, learned, and the game got better.

it took us longer than a year and two months tho.

Melee's 0-death chaingrabs could be DI'd, so you would need impeccable DI-chasing skills to actually pull off a 0-death grab. Brawl's chaingrabs cannot be DI'd. As long as you get the timing down, they require absolutely no skill other than the ability to repeatedly grab. That's why Brawl's chaingrabs are much more capable of destroying a matchup than Melee's chaingrabs.

Do you have an infinite chaingrab?

I do

Do you force every other char to camp you out in fear? I do.

there was no scene for ssb64 so we do not know what would have happened later on in the future(kirby can beat pika btw, lol). again, you anti bans are ********.

And you pro-bans are ignorant to everything that disagrees with your elitist mindset. Name-calling works both ways, you know.

Do any of you actually read what the pro-ban side says?

we want meta gone because he cant be CPed. DIDDY CAN!!!!!!!! So there is no need to ban him.

I love how you guys think counterpicking magically solves your problems. It's like with any other character in the game, "Oh I don't have to pay attention at all, I'll just counterpick 'em with this character and this stage and I win every time. I don't have to put any effort into learning the matchup since I can just CP them." With Metaknight, oh, no, oh no, you can't counterpick MK, "MK's always going to have an even or small advantage no matter what I do, I'm going to lose no matter what, might as well quit and avoid the humiliation." Really, pro-ban, if you just spent any time thinking about how the CP syatem actually works and how only the fewest of high-level players actually rely on the CP system to win games for them instead of just relying on their own natural abilities, you'd realize that this whole' MK can't be CP'd" argument is absolutely, undeniably re-tard-ed.

Grow up and use better arguments, please.

 

[Xerit]

but then all characters have the same chance of getting the item if it's random...it evens out...the spawn points are controlled...this is simple stuff...

items...are not inherently bannable...they were only banned in melee because you couldn't turn off capsules...but brawl isn't melee...what's there to understand here?

In theory yes, every character has an equal chance of the item spawning in a position where they can take advantage of it. However lets say my lucky spawn happens early and I use it to get a small % lead on you. Later on your turn comes and you use your lucky spawn to gimp me with a beam sword (or any other random thrown item). The random item system has given you an unfair advantage in the match simply by giving it to you later when it was more useful.

Random events are something that should be limited as much as possible in a competetive scene. The idea of competition is to test skill against skill, not see who gets lucky on random item spawns.

/end derail


Edit:

@Above:

I hope you weren't arguing with my quote.

Same team bro, same team.

 

[BBQTV]

MK is not good the player is see what im saying its the skill and how you use a character that make him or her effective.

 

[Masmasher@]

No, I'm not. As I said in my first post I just felt I'd share my reasons. I realize most of them line up with the original argument for banning him and I don't think thats an accident. However I don't agree with some of the OP pro-ban arguments (or at least the way they were presented).

Naming a characters attributes is not a valid reason to ban him you say? How then would you expect someone to explain why a character is better if we aren't allowed to reference his movelist in our explanation? Surely you don't think we're going to ban him because he has a shiny cape and a silly mask?

I could pick snake and have an even matchup, for that matter I could pick MK and have an even matchup. That however isn't the point. The point is, in my oppinion, that he breaks multiple parts of the game and that the game as a whole would benefit from his being banned.

Of those many other games how many have a fighting system comparable to Smash? Honestly i've never heard of a fighting game based entirely on ring outs/ recovery and increasing knockback.

I've already stated (twice) that I believe the "numbers" as you call them to be off.

I have more than enough confidence in my own ability (hence why I said I could probably pick up MK and be tournament viable in a week) and I don't see how that has any bearing on this argument at all.

However those characters probably don't break important parts of the game. MK in my oppinion does.

I believe in a game based on ring outs and recovery, that recovery is a big enough deal to be listed and evaluated separately from the his original move list. I would however entertain the idea that i'm wrong in this regard if you can provide a reason beyond "because you say so".

Bannable strategies refrencing what? D3's infinite chain grab? Thats much easier to monitor and enforce than IDC or EDC or Planking. How many instances of ICG have occured at major tournaments since its banning that haven't resulted in immediate DQ? I'd imagine none.

And IDC/EDC? You don't know because you can't monitor it or stop it because its hard to tell. [Edit: IDC meaning its use to escape precarious positions, obviously using IDC for 30 seconds or however long someone could actually manage to physically pull it off would be detectable]

Planking? It may not be as easy, but just youtube Plank and you'll see its still being done.

People have already said that you can monitor EDC.

Also how do you break a recovery system Mk is light weight so its not like you are really going to be gimping him rather then killing him outright. Really what do you guys even mean when you say "the recovery system" a character can have to many moves that have some recovery.

you being tournament viable is based on you level of competition. I would have liked to see you name at genesis is the top 20. You cant be good with metaknight in just a week unless you mean winning your local gamestop tournament.

Also why are the numbers wrong. You see how sugggestive they are. Just because you want to go the non conservative route and make some matchups 70-30 doesnt mean you are right. Also i dont think you have enough say so at the highest level of play to even know.

Also naming attributes isnt a good enough reason. Why you say? because its saying what people already know. You have to present his move actually influencing the entire cast to the point where it speaks of overcentralization. or other bannible criteria. Metaknight does none of this.

Also at the above you said "your opinion" you should try to refrain from doing that. It sorta kills half of what you say in you posts

 

[salaboB]

In theory yes, every character has an equal chance of the item spawning in a position where they can take advantage of it. However lets say my lucky spawn happens early and I use it to get a small % lead on you. Later on your turn comes and you use your lucky spawn to gimp me with a beam sword (or any other random thrown item). The random item system has given you an unfair advantage in the match simply by giving it to you later when it was more useful.

Random events are something that should be limited as much as possible in a competetive scene. The idea of competition is to test skill against skill, not see who gets lucky on random item spawns.

/end derail

Items spawn in known locations, you can play to maximize your chances of getting the lucky item spawn.

It's a different form of competition, but that doesn't mean it's not competitive.

[/derail]

 

[Pyrostormer]

the fact of the matter is...items were designed as part of the game...part of the balance...i bet if we gave items a try, meta knight wouldn't be so dominant...if every character could potentially have a projectile, then meta knight's camping wouldn't be as big a deal...you could edgeguard him safer...and you could outrange him safely.

i mean...items aren't bannable at all...we just carried over our melee habits.

 

[Xerit]

MK is not good the player is see what im saying its the skill and how you use a character that make him or her effective.

Ganon.

Put your money where your mouth is.

 

[Brinzy]

wholes?

the moves i mentioned are the moves he can use on the cast at will at any given point in time. the moves that zelda no name kid brought up are only viable in rare instances......again, you anti ban aint to smart.

It was a god**** joke.

 

[MarKO X]

technically no banned character in any fighting game is unbeatable. even cheap unlockable bosses they throw in for the hell of it are still "beatable"

i dont think theres ever been a char in a fighting game that literally can not lose

*sigh*
Super Turbo's Akuma is unbeatable. Period. If you deny that...
Gil in SF3? Unbeatable. He's like Urien, but stronger, fast, delivers more stun, has a super that covers the entire screen, and can recover life after a KO. lol
Shin Akuma and Evil Ryu in CvS2? No comment. Just... no comment.
Rugal..........

Yet there's 8 Sagats in the Japanese Top 15 ranking.

Evo with no Sagats in top 8 but Japan with 8 Sagats in top 15 STILL blows my mind. America needs to step it up or something.

I'm surprised you guys are still here since the outcome was already said. I'd like to ask if there has been any new developments but this is basically a rehash of the three previous polls as it is. Maybe I'll debate just for a laugh or two, who knows.

lolol. Indeed, the results are practically certain at this point.

And remember those hobo 17 results? Alots of diddys. Ban diddy?

lol @ the sample size. Hint: 1 tournament.

Let's just ban the whole game and replace it with job fairs. Instead of going out to play a videogame with a bunch of friends, we'll all meet up at venues and talk about career options!

THIS IS A SPLENDID IDEA. Cause like, this recession man... it's tough.

I just love it when people compare Brawl to Smash64.

I love it when Brawl is compared to anything. Because some people say it can be compared, others say it can't.

Yay for wasted time~!

Indeed.

Discussed, isnt perma-ban.


Either way, i noticed hobo has lots of stupid rules, such as banning d3s infinite cg, or banning infinites on temp wall.

How about the ledge grab rule?

i could list at least one character from almost every fighting game to date that has no bad matchups and basically can't be counterpicked.

Oh werd? OK. Try me:
Street Fighter Alpha 2.
Sonic the Fighters
Sonic Battle
Dragonball Z Budokai 2

I like aiming at the word almost.

Pro ban doesnt get it. Metaknight cannot be cped is their only argument now. Not a valid ban criteria either way.

Nobody gets it really. The inability to be counterpicked is the least of the problems. And no, that's not a pro-ban argument, it's just something that I find wrong with the entire system that is competitive Brawl.

 

[MarKO X]

the fact of the matter is...items were designed as part of the game...part of the balance...i bet if we gave items a try, meta knight wouldn't be so dominant...if every character could potentially have a projectile, then meta knight's camping wouldn't be as big a deal...you could edgeguard him safer...and you could outrange him safely.

i mean...items aren't bannable at all...we just carried over our melee habits.

I used to think this, but.....

MK STOMPS ITEMS PLAY WITH THE EDC.
UR SONIC AND UR LIKE, "HA! I GOT THE SMASH BALL! NOW I'LL SHOW YOU!"
AND MK IS LIKE, "BYE."
SO SUPER SONIC FLIES AROUND LIKE AN IDIOT.

OH NOES! MK PICKED UP A POISON MUSHROOM!
HE CAN JUST IDC TILL IT WEARS OFF!

Mk is currently a f*cking god with items on. Go ahead and try it. Most fun you'll have with Brawl since ever.

 

[Pyrostormer]

why the **** would you have smash balls and poison mushrooms on? those aren't competitive

 

[BBQTV]

Ganon.

Put your money where your mouth is.

????????????????

 

[Brinzy]

Smashballs are easy for Zelda to get. Other items make her reflector more worthwhile.

Items on plz.

 

[Masmasher@]

the fact of the matter is...items were designed as part of the game...part of the balance...i bet if we gave items a try, meta knight wouldn't be so dominant...if every character could potentially have a projectile, then meta knight's camping wouldn't be as big a deal...you could edgeguard him safer...and you could outrange him safely.

i mean...items aren't bannable at all...we just carried over our melee habits.

You guys dont realize how right this guy is.
This should be taken into consideration.

 

[황미영]

Lol, Evil Ryu in CVS2 is garbage. Shin Akuma and Rugal are the only broken characters in that game.

 

[Clai]

Smashballs are easy for Zelda to get. Other items make her reflector more worthwhile.

Items on plz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gEOzGX6OFc

I agree. Items on, please.

 

[BBQTV]

You guys dont realize how right this guy is.
This should be taken into consideration.

I agree. items please

 

[Xerit]

People have already said that you can monitor EDC.

Also how do you break a recovery system Mk is light weight so its not like you are really going to be gimping him rather then killing him outright. Really what do you guys even mean when you say "the recovery system" a character can have to many moves that have some recovery.

you being tournament viable is based on you level of competition. I would have liked to see you name at genesis is the top 20. You cant be good with metaknight in just a week unless you mean winning your local gamestop tournament.

Also why are the numbers wrong. You see how sugggestive they are. Just because you want to go the non conservative route and make some matchups 70-30 doesnt mean you are right. Also i dont think you have enough say so at the highest level of play to even know.

Also naming attributes isnt a good enough reason. Why you say? because its saying what people already know. You have to present his move actually influencing the entire cast to the point where it speaks of overcentralization. or other bannible criteria. Metaknight does none of this.

Also at the above you said "your opinion" you should try to refrain from doing that. It sorta kills half of what you say in you posts

By having a set of abilities which allow you to be un-gimpable which is a cornerstone of the competetive part of this game. The "recovery system" is my way of referencing the part of the game played off the stage where one side is attempting to gimp the other. MK breaks this system by being straight up un-gimpable unless the user makes a critical error. Something no other character can boast.

True enough it is a subjective statement. It is however not central to my argument so I wont pursue it any further.

Nor does you wanting to go the conservative route and give matchup ratios the same way IGN gives game reviews make you right. 7-10 isn't a review scale, and 50-70 isn't a matchup scale. My point of view, obviously not yours.

I didn't say individual abilities are a reason. In fact I specifically said they aren't. Twice. However his movelist and frame data taken as a whole along with the other factors I listed are enough in my view to warrant a ban. Your criteria may require that he have a single "god move" which destroys the entire cast (a la Akuma) in order to be bannable, my criteria obviously does not.

Just because I don't want to come off as a high and mighty jerk by forcing all my views on others as undeniable facts shouldn't make my views and arguments less valid. Of course since the convention in this thread so far has been to state opinions and views as facts I realize bucking the trend will probably have a detrimental effect on the way my argument is percieved by the elitists who belive their views are immutable facts. However I don't think those people can be reasoned with anyway so I don't really care if they see my argument as less impactful because its honest.

 

[Brinzy]

As long as I have the light arrow (and Sheik), I fear no Ganondorf. >: (

 

[Xerit]

????????????????

If you're going to say a characters abilities dont' matter and its the player that makes the character. Then playing Ganon (arguably the worst character in the game) should be the same to you as playing MK (arguably the best).

I personally would like to see you justify this position by either playing Ganon yourself or finding someone else at a high level of play who does.

If you can't, then you are wrong.

 

[Pyrostormer]

lol...you guys need to read the items standard play thread...it'll tell you everything you want to know about what items are competitive.

but the fact is...metaknight won't be so dominant with items on. i don't know why people say "but metaknight is broken with items too! it just makes him even better!". obviously, metaknight will get better with items...EVERYONE would get better with items because it adds new things to their gameplay. what needs to be considered...is HOW MUCH better they get. someone like falcon, who will suddenly have 1. projectiles, 2. disjointed hitboxes, 3. a way to edgeguard will be helped a lot more then someone like metaknight who already has (or doesn't need) all of those things.

 

[MarKO X]

Lol, Evil Ryu in CVS2 is garbage. Shin Akuma and Rugal are the only broken characters in that game.

That's why they banned him, right?
Evil Ryu in CvS2 definitely is not garbage.

 

[lordvaati]

You guys dont realize how right this guy is.
This should be taken into consideration.
Reply With Quote

indeed. I'm thinking of a valid items moveset now.

 

[Pyrostormer]

check the items standard play thread. i think it's stickied in this forum, it might be tactical though.

it already has a great ruleset for items, and even explanations for each one. once everyone realizes that items are competitive and help balance the game, then there won't be any need for silly ban MK debates.

 

[MarKO X]

lol
with items on, MK is legit for a ban. believe it.

I'd love to see Sonic, Fox, and Shiek go up up up up on the tier list. Items please indeed.

 

[Clai]

If you're going to say a characters abilities dont' matter and its the player that makes the character. Then playing Ganon (arguably the worst character in the game) should be the same to you as playing MK (arguably the best).

I personally would like to see you justify this position by either playing Ganon yourself or finding someone else at a high level of play who does.

If you can't, then you are wrong.

Obviously low-tier characters are going to need more time to reach high level play than high-tier characters because the low-tier characters need so much more effort to get past the weaknesses and bad matchups that prevent them from being in a higher tier. There are plenty of low-tier characters that are represented in high-level play. Reflex wins tournaments with Pokemon trainer, Meteor and FOW win them with Ness, and many other terrible characters get reputable tourney rep from high-level players as well. You just don't see them as much as you do with high-tier characters because honestly, you'd just be better if you put in the time and effort into a high tier character, but many people are dedicated enough to using the low-tier characters that time doesn't matter to them.

+If you want to see high-level Ganon players, check out the Ganon boards. Keep in mind that I main Ganon and use him regularly in tournaments as well.

 

[Pyrostormer]

lol
with items on, MK is legit for a ban. believe it.

I'd love to see Sonic, Fox, and Shiek go up up up up on the tier list. Items please indeed.

no! see, you didn't even give an explanation for what you're saying. you're not using logic, so what you're saying can't be considered.

Mk will get better, duh. like i said earlier, items on will make EVERYONE better because they have new options. but HOW MUCH BETTER they get is what matters.

since items have definite spawn points, you can strategize around them...so if you know your opponent (who might be a meta knight) is just shy of killing percent, you knock him off right before an item should spawn, go to the spawn point it will most likely spawn at (iirc items never spawn at the same point twice in a row, i'm pretty sure there's a queue, this will help you if you're paying attention), get the item that spawns and maybe then you can use it to edgeguard the MK (something nearly all characters couldn't do before) and get a kill.

 

[BBQTV]

If you're going to say a characters abilities dont' matter and its the player that makes the character. Then playing Ganon (arguably the worst character in the game) should be the same to you as playing MK (arguably the best).

I personally would like to see you justify this position by either playing Ganon yourself or finding someone else at a high level of play who does.

If you can't, then you are wrong.

this statement tell me your bad at brawl i met good ganons b4 no character is bad if you know how to use um. by the by i have played ganon b4

 

[Xerit]

Thats pretty much my point though.

Low tier characters are a weight around the neck of otherwise high tier players.

Players do not make characters good. Characters are good or bad to begin with and then players learn to play them as is.

@above

I figured you'd come back with the "lol your bad" retort. Look at the ganon player above. Even he admits that Ganon even when he is viable, is at best handicapping an otherwise excellent player.

 

[Xerit]

no! see, you didn't even give an explanation for what you're saying. you're not using logic, so what you're saying can't be considered.

Mk will get better, duh. like i said earlier, items on will make EVERYONE better because they have new options. but HOW MUCH BETTER they get is what matters.

since items have definite spawn points, you can strategize around them...so if you know your opponent (who might be a meta knight) is just shy of killing percent, you knock him off right before an item should spawn, go to the spawn point it will most likely spawn at (iirc items never spawn at the same point twice in a row, i'm pretty sure there's a queue, this will help you if you're paying attention), get the item that spawns and maybe then you can use it to edgeguard the MK (something nearly all characters couldn't do before) and get a kill.

Definite spawn points being "somewhere on, or above the stage"?

Even if you call that a definite spawn point (lol), you can't tell me they have regular spawn times, or some kind of pattern to which items spawn in what order.

Random =/= competetive.

EDIT: Whoops double post. This thread moves so fast I figured someone would get in before me. Sorry.