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Fix Super Smash Bros.!

Quillion

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Okay, so I got some questions…
1. How do you guys think Smash fares as a celebration / gathering of Nintendo All-Stars?
2. How do you guys think Smash fares as a celebration of gaming history?
3. How do you guys think Smash fares as a party game?
4. How do you guys think Smash fares as a fighting game?
Smash does all four and then some.

I think Smash should stay primarily focused on Nintendo characters though, but not at the total expense of everything else.

…And with that, do you guys think that Smash Bros. would be better of if it committed to one theming and one genre?
What do you mean by this?

If you mean a single franchise, I think that's better suited to games with distinct styles like Pokkén.

If you mean one of the things in that list, my point about being focused on Nintendo still stands.

If you mean focusing on just one genre, that would be a terrible idea. I think only the Capcom vs SNK games can do that to some extent.
 

FazDude

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  1. It does a pretty solid job of this - There are a few characters that could be added to further suit this purpose, but overall, a decent job is done.
  2. This is where Smash struggles - I doubt a game which serves as a "celebration of gaming" could realistically exist for a plethora of reasons, and Smash is probably the closest we're gonna get to that, but even then, it seems to focus more on marketability of characters rather than their importance to gaming.
  3. I'm gonna answer 3 and 4 in one go - Pretty well, generally speaking. The game obviously enjoys a large casual fanbase who enjoys its party game aspects, but it also sees a dedicated competitive community who have kept Melee alive all these years later. Sure, some things could be tweaked in a theoretical Smash 6 to better fit both parties, but across the whole series, it's found a good balance between party and fighting.
Now, would Smash be better off sticking to one idea or genre? I don't have an answer to that - There are a lot of factors which have to be considered beyond just genre and theming, and axing one of either would deter its fans. It's a really complicated issue which I think warrants more than four questions asked about it.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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My bad, either way honestly I'm more the type of people who thinks that the fans can't decide what they want the games to be, there are people who enjoys more the casual game than the competitive and viceversa or even a mix (honestly when I play I usually play with all items off excepting the Smashball and Assist Trophy with lifes and time and FS meter active). And at the same time there are people who has more third party wanted newcomers than first party and again viceversa, I have more third parties than first but that's mainly because I never was a big Nintendo fan to be truly attached/interesed to most characters (few exceptions like either Bandana Dee, Dark Matter Blade, Galacta Knight or Magolor has new Kirby rep, Elma from XCX or Raven Beak are the ones that firstly comes to my mind for "most wanted owned by Nintendo") but has I said this is different for all people so the best option is leave the actual guy in charge to do what he thinks is better.
 
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Guynamednelson

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I have more third parties than first but that's mainly because I never was a big Nintendo fan to be truly attached/interesed to most characters
On the other hand, I have played plenty of Nintendo and non-Nintendo games over the years, and it's because of my experience with non-Smash fighting games that makes me think SSBU went too far with guests.
  • The closest SFV had to guests were Final Fight/Rival Schools characters who are part of the SF universe anyway and most of the Final Fight characters added already had SF experience
  • Tekken 7 only added 3 guests total on top of Akuma with its DLC, none of which were in its 3rd or 4th seasons
  • MK11 had 3 guests in Kombat Pack 1 and 1 more guest in both Aftermath and Pack 2, but the DLC was mostly MK veterans in the end
  • Soulcalibur VI only added one guest in each of its DLC seasons
  • Despite being the game where For Honor and Guilty Gear cross over, Samurai Shodown 2019's DLC was overwhelmingly SamSho veterans
  • Not to mention several fighters whose DLC doesn't include a single guest, not even kinda-sorta-not-really guests like Final Fight characters in Street Fighter
and then there's NASB which due to its low budget could only have someone like Beavis or Cartman as guests, and they still have to deal with the fact that the closest Nicktoons crossovers ever get to repping other Viacom channels is Ren & Stimpy having content exclusive to them
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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On the other hand, I have played plenty of Nintendo and non-Nintendo games over the years, and it's because of my experience with non-Smash fighting games that makes me think SSBU went too far with guests.
  • The closest SFV had to guests were Final Fight/Rival Schools characters who are part of the SF universe anyway and most of the Final Fight characters added already had SF experience
  • Tekken 7 only added 3 guests total on top of Akuma with its DLC, none of which were in its 3rd or 4th seasons
  • MK11 had 3 guests in Kombat Pack 1 and 1 more guest in both Aftermath and Pack 2, but the DLC was mostly MK veterans in the end
  • Soulcalibur VI only added one guest in each of its DLC seasons
  • Despite being the game where For Honor and Guilty Gear cross over, Samurai Shodown 2019's DLC was overwhelmingly SamSho veterans
  • Not to mention several fighters whose DLC doesn't include a single guest, not even kinda-sorta-not-really guests like Final Fight characters in Street Fighter
and then there's NASB which due to its low budget could only have someone like Beavis or Cartman as guests, and they still have to deal with the fact that the closest Nicktoons crossovers ever get to repping other Viacom channels is Ren & Stimpy having content exclusive to them
The main problem with all those examples (good ones I want to say) is that any of them are a crossover game from the start, Smash is an actual crossover game so any character could be considered a guest at this point.
 

Quillion

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My bad, either way honestly I'm more the type of people who thinks that the fans can't decide what they want the games to be, there are people who enjoys more the casual game than the competitive and viceversa or even a mix (honestly when I play I usually play with all items off excepting the Smashball and Assist Trophy with lifes and time and FS meter active). And at the same time there are people who has more third party wanted newcomers than first party and again viceversa, I have more third parties than first but that's mainly because I never was a big Nintendo fan to be truly attached/interesed to most characters (few exceptions like either Bandana Dee, Dark Matter Blade, Galacta Knight or Magolor has new Kirby rep, Elma from XCX or Raven Beak are the ones that firstly comes to my mind for "most wanted owned by Nintendo") but has I said this is different for all people so the best option is leave the actual guy in charge to do what he thinks is better.
Like I keep saying, I'm in favor of adding things to the core gameplay that please both casual players and competitive players. I think this particular goal of pleasing opposing groups is tenable. Casual players want inputs that are simple yet get an immediate and visible result, and competitive players want versatile options that can be experimented with and combined to create emergent gameplay. This is the goal behind my two hypothetical additions of the "super special button" and the "wavedash button", both of which have dedicated buttons and work within the established "button+direction" system that Smash has found success in while adding new toys to play with.

When it comes to focusing on Nintendo vs all of gaming... not that I'm opposed to the latter, but I'm adamant that Smash should not forget where it came from as a primarily Nintendo crossover. TBH, I don't think Smash becoming focused on "all of gaming" is even possible with a lot of outside companies/developers unwilling to participate and even Nintendo/Sora unwilling to cooperate with certain outside companies despite those 3rd party developers possibly having iconic and beloved games. Depending on Sakurai's possibly changing views on the "spirit" of his "no non-video game characters" rule, Smash will continue to exclude licensed game characters despite many of them like DBFZ, Arkham Asylum, and Witcher being big games in their own right.

I like that Smash is collecting as much big third-party characters as possible, but I wouldn't want to see the day that the third-party portion of the roster overtakes the Nintendo portion in quantity.

Honestly, I feel like these debates are the result of Smash being seen as "the only one of its kind." If it's the only big gaming crossover platform fighter around, then it has to do everything and it can't fit into a niche.
Hey, if PlayStation goes for Round 2 at their own crossover fighter, I'm sure Smash will have some real big-name competition at that point.

Granted, I still think SIE should just abandon the "PlayStation All-Stars" name and just call it something different among other things.

On the other hand, I have played plenty of Nintendo and non-Nintendo games over the years, and it's because of my experience with non-Smash fighting games that makes me think SSBU went too far with guests.
  • The closest SFV had to guests were Final Fight/Rival Schools characters who are part of the SF universe anyway and most of the Final Fight characters added already had SF experience
  • Tekken 7 only added 3 guests total on top of Akuma with its DLC, none of which were in its 3rd or 4th seasons
  • MK11 had 3 guests in Kombat Pack 1 and 1 more guest in both Aftermath and Pack 2, but the DLC was mostly MK veterans in the end
  • Soulcalibur VI only added one guest in each of its DLC seasons
  • Despite being the game where For Honor and Guilty Gear cross over, Samurai Shodown 2019's DLC was overwhelmingly SamSho veterans
  • Not to mention several fighters whose DLC doesn't include a single guest, not even kinda-sorta-not-really guests like Final Fight characters in Street Fighter
and then there's NASB which due to its low budget could only have someone like Beavis or Cartman as guests, and they still have to deal with the fact that the closest Nicktoons crossovers ever get to repping other Viacom channels is Ren & Stimpy having content exclusive to them
Maybe guests could be the primary draw of DLC while both big and obscure Nintendo characters take up being base game.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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I like that Smash is collecting as much big third-party characters as possible, but I wouldn't want to see the day that the third-party portion of the roster overtakes the Nintendo portion in quantity.
Yeah I wouldn't want that either, even if has I said before, most of my wanted chars comes from other companies (Type-Moon, SNK, Capcom, Microsoft/Bethesda, Atlus, etc).
Maybe guests could be the primary draw of DLC while both big and obscure Nintendo characters take up being base game.
That's how Smash was working in the last two games with DLC and I think is best option.
Granted, I still think SIE should just abandon the "PlayStation All-Stars" name and just call it something different among other things.
Playstation Cross Tag Battle Arcade Champion Turbo Edition DX Revelator!/s
 

Guynamednelson

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Maybe guests could be the primary draw of DLC while both big and obscure Nintendo characters take up being base game.
But, again, those games made room for both guests and non-guests, popular and obscure, in their DLC. Hell, Mortal Kombat X even thought it was worth it to make Bo Rai Cho, one of the series' most hated characters, part of the DLC!
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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But, again, those games made room for both guests and non-guests, popular and obscure, in their DLC. Hell, Mortal Kombat X even thought it was worth it to make Bo Rai Cho, one of the series' most hated characters, part of the DLC!
Again, all those games are original IPs, they started to add guest fighters but they still had a lot of original characters from their own so it's easier jto attach to them. Unlike Smash the fans of Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken, etc expects more characters from the game they are playing.

Apart, the way both sides treats the DLC content is different, most of those games only sells the character, Smash also sells stages, music, additional content, etc. People would want more new things from new franchises rather than already represented things (I defend Pythra and Byleth additions with my soul, but I know that people would like more something completely new, especially since because their games was already represented they only managed to include a small quantity of content, heck, any of them include Mii costumes from their franchises.
 
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Baysha

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Like I keep saying, I'm in favor of adding things to the core gameplay that please both casual players and competitive players. I think this particular goal of pleasing opposing groups is tenable. Casual players want inputs that are simple yet get an immediate and visible result, and competitive players want versatile options that can be experimented with and combined to create emergent gameplay. This is the goal behind my two hypothetical additions of the "super special button" and the "wavedash button", both of which have dedicated buttons and work within the established "button+direction" system that Smash has found success in while adding new toys to play with.
I don't think finding a "balance" between casual and competitive is that important of a thing. Let me ctrl+c ctrl+v a profile post I made a couple days ago.

I don't really get why "closing the casual and competitive gap" is seen as such a big deal. Even without wacky stages and items, y'know that... casuals can play competitive games too? Chess is seen as a pretty competitive game but tons of people play it casually. To give another example, Scrabble is seen as a fun family game, but it has a pretty active competitive scene from what I've heard. Casuals won't really notice competitive mechanics being added but competitive players will notice their abscence.
 

Quillion

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I don't think finding a "balance" between casual and competitive is that important of a thing. Let me ctrl+c ctrl+v a profile post I made a couple days ago.
People say that, but (just my perception), post-PS3/360 traditional fighters absolutely have been running into the exact opposite problem Brawl did.

I'll just bring up something I posted earlier in this thread:

Here's the thing: I find a lot of modern traditional fighting games very... "mechanically bloated." A lot of modern fighting games nowadays are full of vital mechanics like advancing guards, super jumps, parrying, bursts, reversals, just frames, etc. I know that the reason why modern fighters have those mechanics is "defensive design" so they can go as wild with characters as possible without impacting balance, but it's certainly a far cry from even Super SF2 Turbo where the most complicated inherent mechanic was the super move.

Yes, I do want Smash's core gameplay to expand, but I'd like for it to do so in ways that can unite both crowds in providing more options for competitive while being easy to use for casual. Nothing like the "conveniences" of modern fighting games.

There are also a few other theories I have as to why modern traditional fighting games struggle at getting casual players outside the big established names, like how the untrained eye can see a traditional 2D fighter as "just another SF2", and the widely known lack of single player content, but I think "mechanical bloat" definitely is a problem with that.
Lastly, "balancing" casual and competitive is not my primary goal in my hypothetical additions. My primary goal is simply to add things to Smash's core gameplay while keeping in mind balancing casual and competitive players.
 

Guynamednelson

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Unlike Smash the fans of Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken, etc expects more characters from the game they are playing.
In the same manner, there's going to be people expecting some Nintendo in the DLC if they add any at all, or should if they add a third-party like Banjo & Kazooie. While BK contributes to the idea that DLC would mostly be third-parties, the context behind their demand and the history of their franchise makes the only difference between adding them and adding a first-party who hasn't had a game in years the language barrier and licensing fees.
 

Quillion

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In the same manner, there's going to be people expecting some Nintendo in the DLC if they add any at all, or should if they add a third-party like Banjo & Kazooie. While BK contributes to the idea that DLC would mostly be third-parties, the context behind their demand and the history of their franchise makes the only difference between adding them and adding a first-party who hasn't had a game in years the language barrier and licensing fees.
And we got Byleth, Min Min, and Pythra. That's some Nintendo in the DLC right?

I've even seen many believe that all three should've been base game, and you can count me as one of them.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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In the same manner, there's going to be people expecting some Nintendo in the DLC if they add any at all, or should if they add a third-party like Banjo & Kazooie. While BK contributes to the idea that DLC would mostly be third-parties, the context behind their demand and the history of their franchise makes the only difference between adding them and adding a first-party who hasn't had a game in years the language barrier and licensing fees.
I don't say no one wants more Nintendo characters, but people is interesed in new franchises and when practically all the important franchises are in, which one would you add?, Ayumi Tachibana of the super famous game Famicom Detective Club? (nothing against her btw)
 
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Infinity Sorcerer

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And we got Byleth, Min Min, and Pythra. That's some Nintendo in the DLC right?

I've even seen many believe that all three should've been base game, and you can count me as one of them.
Honestly if releasing Ultimate a year later would mean having all three (or at least Byleth and Pythra) in the base game I would do it. Especially since they would have the chances to get more content from their games than what they can do has DLC.
 
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Quillion

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Honestly if releasing Ultimate a year later to have all three (or at least Byleth and Pythra) I would do it. Especially since they would have the chances to get more content from their games than what they can do has DLC.
Byleth's game was released several months after Ultimate tbf, so I'd be charitable enough to let them be first DLC if anything.

I guess they could've replaced Ken and the Belmonts with Min Min and Pythra..? Even then Ken and Richter's echo status brings things into question.

Speaking of, I hope next Smash game will release some echoes as DLC, but at a reduced price and without the fanfare that accompanies the full characters.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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I was hoping for free echoes fr, looks like the best way to throw a bone to the fans of certain characters that can work has echos.

Regarding the rest, yeah 3H was released after, but knowing that the game was delayed from the start wouldn't be surprising that if they release it a year later Sakurai would already have access to the character. I wouldn't want to replace either Ken or Simon/Richter for Pythra or Min Min, I think with extra time they can include all of them.
 
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Guynamednelson

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I was hoping for free echoes fr, looks like the best way to throw a bone to the fans of certain characters that can work has echos.
It probably wasn't going to happen anyway when Mii Costumes are still something to pay for and echoes take a little more work.

I think what ultimately prevented there being more echoes are two things:

1. Each fighter doesn't just have an in-game model, but a much higher-quality one used for their CG render.
2. They were trying to make much less Amiibo for this game than 4. Look at how none of the veterans who were in Smash 4 got Amiibos for their Ultimate renders, not even in cases like the Zelda reps no longer having their TP designs. More echoes naturally means more Amiibos to make.
 

Quillion

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I was hoping for free echoes fr, looks like the best way to throw a bone to the fans of certain characters that can work has echos.
If Mii Costumes have to be paid, no way echoes could be free.
I'd be willing to pay ~$1-2 per DLC echo tbh, keeping in mind that the modeling team has to do some work and the animation team needs to replace taunts and some idles. Oh well, they'd certainly need something to bring TP/OoT Link back.

It probably wasn't going to happen anyway when Mii Costumes are still something to pay for and echoes take a little more work.

I think what ultimately prevented there being more echoes are two things:

1. Each fighter doesn't just have an in-game model, but a much higher-quality one used for their CG render.
2. They were trying to make much less Amiibo for this game than 4. Look at how none of the veterans who were in Smash 4 got Amiibos for their Ultimate renders, not even in cases like the Zelda reps no longer having their TP designs. More echoes naturally means more Amiibos to make.
I hope if Amiibo support is in the next Smash, they'll do it with cards instead of figures. It would tie into my idea of making Spirits into "Spirit Cards".
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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True and true, it was just something I would liked to see rather than something that would make sense, but also free Mii Costumes would also be neat.


I hope if Amiibo support is in the next Smash, they'll do it with cards instead of figures. It would tie into my idea of making Spirits into "Spirit Cards".
Most people buy Amiibos to have a figurine of a character that probably of either don't have anyone (Duck Hunt, Wii Fit Trainer, etc) or it's goddamn expensive (Pyra/Mythra, Samus, probably Byleth I didn't checked) rather than the actual use.
 
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Ze Diglett

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Okay, so I got some questions…
1. How do you guys think Smash fares as a celebration / gathering of Nintendo All-Stars?
2. How do you guys think Smash fares as a celebration of gaming history?
3. How do you guys think Smash fares as a party game?
4. How do you guys think Smash fares as a fighting game?

…And with that, do you guys think that Smash Bros. would be better of if it committed to one theming and one genre?
  1. As a Nintendo crossover, I think Smash has done a pretty good job for itself. Ignoring all the third-party guest characters who have little to nothing to do with Nintendo, all of Nintendo's big characters and franchises are represented with even a few you'd never expect to see like R.O.B. and Ice Climbers. The closest you can argue to a "Nintendo All-Star" who isn't in the game yet are spinoff fodder like Toad and Waluigi, or sidekicks of sidekicks like Dixie Kong and Bandana Waddle Dee (who should totally be in by now grumble grumble). Unfortunately a lot of these guys simply missed their chance to be added due to the scope creep brought on by Smash 4 and ESPECIALLY Ultimate, but it's a pretty good spread even if "Nintendo All-Stars" isn't really what Smash is about anymore.

  2. I'm a pretty big proponent of the idea that Smash shouldn't really try to brand itself as a "celebration of gaming" or "gaming hall of fame" in the first place. Ignoring that it is quite literally just a game and it categorically means nothing if your favorite character is or isn't in it (especially since they got a goddamn Piranha Plant in there lol), it just isn't feasible for them to represent all of gaming to begin with. There's tons of objectively super important properties and companies that neither Nintendo nor Sakurai would touch with a 10-foot pole, and mobile and PC gaming have virtually zero presence in the game whatsoever - I think the DOOM Mii Costume might literally be the only piece of PC content in this entire game? (Which even then, DOOM's notorious for being on damn near everything these days, so.) Does that mean PC isn't important to the history and culture of video games? No, of course not, it just means Nintendo is out of touch and doesn't know what the PC gaming market is.

    Even if Nintendo were willing and able to include all these things, the fact is that Nintendo content would still largely outnumber everything else, which in my opinion isn't a bad thing. I know it's kind of a boomer take to say that Smash was better when it was a mostly Nintendo crossover with maybe a few guest characters in there, but my GOD things were so much more focused back then. A big part of the appeal of Smash for me growing up was not only seeing my favorite characters in the game, but finding out about the R.O.B.'s and G&W's of the world. Being introduced to obscure things you had no idea about is part of the fun of Smash, which is why it sucks that seemingly no one has a shot if they aren't the star of some major AAA series these days. As of Ultimate, it feels like they're adding characters more to turn heads and grab headlines than anything else, which makes sense for a business monolith like Nintendo to do, but it makes each reveal feel less and less exciting IMO. Surprise picks are something that Smash has historically done so well, which is why it should never devolve into a "VIPs Only" museum of characters you've already seen a million times before.

  3. I've always been of the mind that Smash is great as a party game, but terrible as a fighting game. In terms of pure couch multiplayer chaos, it's practically uncontested, but mechanically speaking, it leaves a lot to be desired and you're probably better off going elsewhere for your competitive platform fighter fix if that's what you're into. That doesn't mean I think it CAN'T be good as a party game and as a fighting game if they try, but frankly I don't trust Nintendo to do that and think they should probably lean into the casual aspect of Smash instead of trying to half-ass competitive support like they have been the past 5-8 years.
 
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Quillion

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I've always been of the mind that Smash is great as a party game, but terrible as a fighting game. In terms of pure couch multiplayer chaos, it's practically uncontested, but mechanically speaking, it leaves a lot to be desired and you're probably better off going elsewhere for your competitive platform fighter fix if that's what you're into. That doesn't mean I think it CAN'T be good as a party game and as a fighting game if they try, but frankly I don't trust Nintendo to do that and think they should probably lean into the casual aspect of Smash instead of trying to half-ass competitive support like they have been the past 5-8 years.
"Leaning into the casual aspect" will mean that even the newest player to Smash can spam Brawl Meta Knight's Mach Tornado and still win.

And again, leaning more into competitive will probably make the game mechanically bloated like many modern traditional fighters and even more lacking in single-player content among other things.

We need additions to Smash that are both easy to use AND add options to experiment with and combine. The only people who would be alienated by that dual goal are certain hardcore players that absolutely need precise, Kaizo inputs like L-Canceling and One-Frame Links, and from my experience, those people are drowned out by everyone else who wants easy-but-experimental options.
 

Quillion

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Anyway, I have some ideas for changes I would make to the core gameplay. These aren't additions, but outright changes or replacements to make universally or semi-universally.
  • As stated before, replace air dodging with air dashing and air shielding. I find air dodging a bad mechanic for unnecessarily slowing down the aerial game by its very nature as an "invulnerable maneuver". Therefore, it should be separated into air dashing as the "burst air movement" option and air shielding as "aerial defense" that can be more quickly interrupted with a grab.
  • Redo most neutral airs as aerial jabs. This would give a pinch of that MvC flavor for more satisfying aerial combos.
  • Tying in with the above, make up tilts interruptible early with jump.
  • Make jabs cancelable into tilts. What I mean by this is that if you input the first few hits of a jab, the last hit can be replaced by a tilt. This can apply to both rapids and three-hitters.
  • Replace move staling with a more standard combo decay system. Like it or not, move staling overly favors the damage output of speedsters with a variety of combo moves over glaciers with one or two. Combo decay will make it so that speedsters won't utterly trounce glaciers in damage output.
  • (Big maybe) Replace spotdodging with a universal counter. Admittedly, I just thought of this since counters are such a common special, so why not make it universal?
 

Quillion

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The universal counter isn't something I would like, but the rest sounds fun.
Yeah, I called that a "Big Maybe" for a reason. TBF, dodge staling could still apply to it, making it so that stale counters have less active frames and deal less damage, while over a certain staleness level, counters have no active frames at all. Then again, people hate SF4 focus attacking for a reason so eh.
 
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Oracle Link

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I have something Unique!
Its Super weird we have his Stage but not him in any Way:

So atleast giving him an Evolving Spirit with both this Apearnce aswell as this one:

Would be neat but even better would be if his Boss fight returned instead of Galleom!
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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I have something Unique!
Its Super weird we have his Stage but not him in any Way:

So atleast giving him an Evolving Spirit with both this Apearnce aswell as this one:

Would be neat but even better would be if his Boss fight returned instead of Galleom!
Yeah I think of all Brawl bosses Galleom is one of the most boring ones. Would rather prefer either him, Rayquaza (especially with a Mega Rayquaza update) or Duon
 

Quillion

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Yeah I think of all Brawl bosses Galleom is one of the most boring ones. Would rather prefer either him, Rayquaza (especially with a Mega Rayquaza update) or Duon
I think they picked Galleom as he's the Galeem counterpart to Marx as a Sakurai-made character. Notice how Giga Bowser and Ganon are counterparts as Miyamoto-made characters and Rathalos and Dracula are counterparts as 3rd party characters.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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I think they picked Galleom as he's the Galeem counterpart to Marx as a Sakurai-made character. Notice how Giga Bowser and Ganon are counterparts as Miyamoto-made characters and Rathalos and Dracula are counterparts as 3rd party characters.
Would make sense, but in terms of Sakurai-made characters Duon feels more interesing imo.
 

Quillion

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Now that I think about it, maybe smashes could be mapped to Y while super specials can be mapped to A+B. A neutral Y would just be an F-Smash.

It could certainly make the aerial smashes that some want much more convenient, and the fact that it's right next to X as a default jump only sweetens the deal.

Either way, I hope next Smash will consider A+B as a mappable option in its own right rather than be locked to a toggle for an alternate Smash input.
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Another "big maybe" addition I want to propose for the super special system are "super throws", which would be kill throws or immobilization throws at the cost of meter. You would press Y/AB+direction while grabbing to do a super throw, and this would really bring back 64-esque kill throws for all/most characters while giving them a bigger drawback. It would free up normal throws to be exclusively for combos or keepaway.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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Another "big maybe" addition I want to propose for the super special system are "super throws", which would be kill throws or immobilization throws at the cost of meter. You would press Y/AB+direction while grabbing to do a super throw, and this would really bring back 64-esque kill throws for all/most characters while giving them a bigger drawback. It would free up normal throws to be exclusively for combos or keepaway.
Ah yes, the Luigi button.
 
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