Fix Super Smash Bros.!

[FazDude]

To be fair, I'd be down to have characters interact in story mode cutscenes or something of the like. In-game banter, though, is something I'm less sure about.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

I always thinked in victory quotes but I find troublesome how a considerable amount of characters can't talk, so either you made it talk (that would be weird) or don't give them any dialogue (that would also be weird).

My own idea for characters interactions would be mini-stories in the arcade modes, much like in any other fighting game, each character has a special intro and ending with some particular context (idk, Mario looking for the princess once again but now Bowser contracted people from other games or something like that).

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm not saying I don't like obscure characters, it's just that I aren't interesed in most of the ones that I know (now that I think it more maybe there are more characters that the ones that I mentioned earlier, Saki would be cool for example) but still, it's just personal opinion and not what I think it should be fixed.

G Guynamednelson and Infinity Sorcerer Infinity Sorcerer : I feel like DLC characters alone should be recognizable first and foremost, but base game characters should be simply fun (and simple and intuitive) to play

To be fair, Sakurai wasn't really going all-out with obscure characters anyway when we got them. But when he did add a few per game, they instantly became fan favorites who were responsible for Mother's cult following (or at least it being a more worldwide thing), FE getting localised, and Kid Icarus getting a sequel. There hasn't really been an equivalent to that from 4 and Ultimate's newcomers except maybe future Xenoblade games not getting the same limited American release that XC1 got...and even then that could be Operation Rainfall's fault, not Smash.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

To be fair, Sakurai wasn't really going all-out with obscure characters anyway when we got them. But when he did add a few per game, they instantly became fan favorites who were responsible for Mother's cult following (or at least it being a more worldwide thing), FE getting localised, and Kid Icarus getting a sequel. There hasn't really been an equivalent to that from 4 and Ultimate's newcomers except maybe future Xenoblade games not getting the same limited American release that XC1 got...and even then that could be Operation Rainfall's fault, not Smash.

I think they tried to do that with Min Min, and even if temporaly worked is obvious that it hasn't had the same impact.

 

[Quillion]

I completely agree with that, not because I think those characters aren't worthy has DLCs but because other people doesn't consider them worthy has DLCs, I will defend both Byleth and Pyra/Mythra inclusion with cape and sword but I know that they both would be 100% more well received if they where in the base game (and they even aren't obscure picks!, How people would react if you throw them someone like, who knows, Hayate from Savage Reign has a DLC?)

Byleth could've been a good first DLC, IMO. But yeah, Pythra and even Min Min should've been base game.

FazDude , Wario Wario Wario , Infinity Sorcerer : The thing I want most for character interactions is special team victory animations IMO.

If you have two characters on a team that "make sense" together, like Mario and Luigi, Mario and Peach, Bowser and Jr., Link and Zelda(?), two Inklings, Chrom/Robin/Lucina, Pit and Palutena, Fox and Falco, etc., they will have a special victory pose where they can have their special interactions.

This is actually one of my most wanted "minor additions."

(?): Link and Zelda are a (?) because they might not even be from the same game in future installments.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I wouldn't mind character or stage-specific banter for a character like Gex or Bubsy who is known for observing the levels they're in or bosses they're fighting and making snarky remarks to fit. That being said, I can't think of a character of that type who would really be on Smash's radar. I'll defend Bubsy as a worthy Smash pick until the day I die, but there's no way Sakurai feels the same - if he even knows who Bubsy is, given his beyond-obscure status in Japan!

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

Byleth could've been a good first DLC, IMO. But yeah, Pythra and even Min Min should've been base game.

FazDude , Wario Wario Wario , Infinity Sorcerer : The thing I want most for character interactions is special team victory animations IMO.

If you have two characters on a team that "make sense" together, like Mario and Luigi, Mario and Peach, Bowser and Jr., Link and Zelda(?), two Inklings, Chrom/Robin/Lucina, Pit and Palutena, Fox and Falco, etc., they will have a special victory pose where they can have their special interactions.

This is actually one of my most wanted "minor additions."

(?): Link and Zelda are a (?) because they might not even be from the same game in future installments.

Yeah that would work, it would also be a good way to do some dream mettings like recreate the iconic intro of CvS with Ken tossing Terry's hat to him or put Mario and Sonic doing some badass pose and things like that.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think they tried to do that with Min Min, and even if temporaly worked is obvious that it hasn't had the same impact.

ARMS had already sold 2 million copies prior to the FP2 announcement, so I doubt it's really near the same level as adding an Earthbound rep in 1999.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

Tbf most people bought ARMS because there it was literally nothing else in the catalogue apart of BOTW that for that date most people already finished the game at least once.

 

[Quillion]

Hey, at least ARMS had a big marketing push during its release. It didn't even become a rising star IP, but still; even the biggest pushes to start big IPs are "win some, lose some."

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

The thread isn't for that but man it's really a shame that ARMS didn't worked has Nintendo wanted, imo the main reason would be the big lack of single player content since it has a simple yet enjoyable gameplay, great character designs (I love the designs of characters like Max Brass, Kid Cobra, Dr. Coyle and even the proper Min Min) and heck, it even has some sort of lore even if they do little to nothing with that.


Trying to go once again with the "fix" thing, I think they should try to do less stages, or more especifically less stages of just one series since what's the point of have +30 songs of Mega Man if you can only hear it in one place?, they kinda fixed it with the update with the posibilitie of use any song in any Smash original stage but still, I would happily trade any Mario stage with another stage for Mega Man or Castlevania.
This goes ESPECIALLY for those stages that feels the same, I'm talking to you two Pokémon Stadium 2 and Windy Hil Zone!

 

[Quillion]

The thread isn't for that but man it's really a shame that ARMS didn't worked has Nintendo wanted, imo the main reason would be the big lack of single player content since it has a simple yet enjoyable gameplay, great character designs (I love the designs of characters like Max Brass, Kid Cobra, Dr. Coyle and even the proper Min Min) and heck, it even has some sort of lore even if they do little to nothing with that.


Trying to go once again with the "fix" thing, I think they should try to do less stages, or more especifically less stages of just one series since what's the point of have +30 songs of Mega Man if you can only hear it in one place?, they kinda fixed it with the update with the posibilitie of use any song in any Smash original stage but still, I would happily trade any Mario stage with another stage for Mega Man or Castlevania.

Any Mario stage? Even Bowser's freaking Castle?

I could personally see Mega Man add Central Highway as a stage (though Zero and/or echo X would need to be in too). Something non-Dracula's Castle for Castlevania stumps me though.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

Any Mario stage? Even Bowser's freaking Castle?

I could personally see Mega Man add Central Highway as a stage (though Zero and/or echo X would need to be in too). Something non-Dracula's Castle for Castlevania stumps me though.

I was talking about those that are in the actual game, of course I would love Bowser's Castle, the closest thing it's the Paper Mario stage but still, I wanted to say that it would be better has less stages that feels somewhat repetitive (even if the stage's itself isn't near similar), instead of having three stages that looks like Level 1-1 you could add Bowser's Castle and the Boo's Mansion has an example. And having at least one more stages for those series that are already veterans (especially if they have a lot of songs).

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Two issues with Min Min:

1. one is that people can recognise when they're being advertised to, if this was a Codename Steam or Ever Oasis character I feel it would've read as "you may have missed this title a few years ago!" while Min Min reads as "We need to justify a sequel to this to the shareholders, buy it." She was still in a sort of window of hope at the time.
2. The way Min Min is portrayed in Smash does not paint Arms in a good light at all. Her gameplay is repetitive and tough to fight against partially thanks to the removal of the Z-Axis, which is integral to Arms as a gameplay concept, and just the inherent nature of zoners in platform fighters. If you play against Min Min in Smash, your thought isn't going to be "Wow, this Arms game seems like so much fun!" as much as "What did people see in Arms to get it in Smash?" Being able to hit Min Min's arms is one gameplay mechanic I think should have been copied over.

I feel that, if anything, Min Min in Smash hurt Arms more than it helped, by painting an overly simplistic; repetitive image of the game that even I, someone who thinks Arms is absolute garbage, an admit is unfair.

 

[Guynamednelson]

what's the point of have +30 songs of Mega Man if you can only hear it in one place?

Or 50 SNK songs that can only be heard on one stage whose ganeplay is rather basic.

That's another thing to fix: From a gameplay perspective, stages added with DLC fighters tend to be too bland for casual players while having elements that make competitive players wanna ban them. The only DLC stages I feel are really for the "party game" aspect of Smash are Midgar and Mario Maker and even then, while Midgar has summons, it starts off like Battlefield.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

That's another thing to fix: From a gameplay perspective, stages added with DLC fighters tend to be too bland for casual players while having elements that make competitive players wanna ban them. The only DLC stages I feel are really for the "party game" aspect of Smash are Midgar and Mario Maker and even then, while Midgar has summons, it starts off like Battlefield.

Honestly I think this criticism also applies to SSBU's base game new stages. Dracula's Castle is a baffling mess of blocks placed wherever and probably would've benefitted from the New Pork/Temple approach.

That being said, KOF Stadium is great fun.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

I played the game long time ago and even if the game itself isn't as fresh in my mind I rather feel that it shows more or less what the game is, more based on spacing and the control of both arms than anything else, you can't make it feel 100% filedign since that would make the character even more trash since they are just different games, I mean you don't see Kazuya doing Korean backdashes and having differences between highs, mids and lows in his attacks.

Or 50 SNK songs that can only be heard on one stage whose ganeplay is rather basic.

That's another thing to fix: From a gameplay perspective, stages added with DLC fighters tend to be too bland for casual players while having elements that make competitive players wanna ban them. The only DLC stages I feel are really for the "party game" aspect of Smash are Midgar and Mario Maker and even then, while Midgar has summons, it starts off like Battlefield.

I mean, I feel its some gray space when it comes to DLCs since they would obviously only have one stage, I love KOF stadium but I know that in comparison the stage looks "bland", the same can be said for other stages that I love and play the most like Dracula's Castle, Mementos, Northern Cavern or Mishima's Dojo, I more or less agree with that they would need to made more stages with gimmicks that made them fun to use but I guess is more something about "if the opportunity comes" rather than being a must.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Dracula's Castle is a baffling mess of blocks placed wherever and probably would've benefitted from the New Pork/Temple approach.

Or having the monsters be more than just cameos. Feels like a waste to model all those Castlevania bosses only to have them never attack players.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Or having the monsters be more than just cameos. Feels like a waste to model all those Castlevania bosses only to have them never attack players.

I don't really like in-stage enemies for anything except direct-port retro stages, but perhaps having them be a bit more involved in the cameos (destoying setpieces, inching extremely close to the foreground) would be nice, or just a single interacting enemy that can't be fought back, maybe the Medusa head turning people into stone.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

I also want to say that I hate those unnecesary big stages with all my guts, yeah maybe they would be funnier when there are more players but especially knowing that the stages comes from the era where the max amount of players was 4 it feels that it has a lot of "dead zones" that would perfectly cut out for make the stage more pleaseant to move around (AND YES THIS IS ABOUT GREAT CAVE OFFENSIVE)

 

[Quillion]

I also want to say that I hate those unnecesary big stages with all my guts, yeah maybe they would be funnier when there are more players but especially knowing that the stages comes from the era where the max amount of players was 4 it feels that it has a lot of "dead zones" that would perfectly cut out for make the stage more pleaseant to move around (AND YES THIS IS ABOUT GREAT CAVE OFFENSIVE)

Hey, Temple is and will always be one of the best casual stages.

And at least we have Battlefield and Omega mode for those stages too. That said, we need a Smashville mode on top of that.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

Yeah maybe temple is more or less the exception even if the bottom part it's a very easy place to kill someone with just launching them to a diagonal wall.

 

[Quillion]

Yeah maybe temple is more or less the exception even if the bottom part it's a very easy place to kill someone with just launching them to a diagonal wall.

Palutena's Temple and New Pork are fine IMO. I think it's only GCO that's incredibly unfun thanks to its "danger zone" mechanic and lack of open outer space.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

I find if any case if you want a stage with more places where you can move then what about those stages with multiple sections?, like Reset Bomb Forest or Castle Siege for example, they made the things interesing without being extremely long.

 

[Quillion]

I find if any case if you want a stage with more places where you can move then what about those stages with multiple sections?, like Reset Bomb Forest or Castle Siege for example, they made the things interesing without being extremely long.

Well, there are the "traveling" stages like Delfino, Wuhu Island, and some of the F-Zero stages. I'm mixed with those stages since they end up feeling pretty samey, yet I can't exactly think of any better way to do those stages.

Delfino should really get some background Piantas and Nokis though.

 

[Ze Diglett]

There's a lot of things I'd change about Smash if I were in charge (adding actual movement, for instance), but the main thing I think Smash absolutely needs going forward is MULTIPLE ATTACK BUTTONS. People say adding more buttons would make Smash too complicated, but after playing Rivals and NASB, oh my god I can never go back to the "tilt stick for light attack, flick stick for strong attack" system Smash does. There's a reason basically every alternative platform fighter currently on the market has dedicated light and strong attack buttons; it's just a straight-up better system that allows for more precise and expressive play.
(Also on that topic, PLEASE give us the option to map dedicated short and full hop buttons. If you're gonna give us two redundant jump buttons, at least let me map them to different kinds of jump instead of the exact same dual function.)

Ok but what about rollback netcode tho. It's something that it would probably be never included but a man can dream I guess.

Not while Namco's developing these games LOL

Yeah, this is fair. Like I said, it'd have to be done in a much less lazy and thoughtful way than Overwatch 2 or something, but people are excited for Multiversus despite it adopting a similar idea to what I had in mind, so I don't see why it couldn't work for Smash.

I don't really trust Nintendo to do games-as-a-service, personally. They can barely handle post-launch support in general, it seems.

 

[Quillion]

There's a lot of things I'd change about Smash if I were in charge (adding actual movement, for instance), but the main thing I think Smash absolutely needs going forward is MULTIPLE ATTACK BUTTONS. People say adding more buttons would make Smash too complicated, but after playing Rivals and NASB, oh my god I can never go back to the "tilt stick for light attack, hard press for strong attack" system Smash does. There's a reason basically every alternative platform fighter currently on the market has dedicated light and strong attack buttons; it's just a straight-up better system that allows for more precise and expressive play.
(Also on that topic, PLEASE give us the option to map dedicated short and full hop buttons. If you're gonna give us two redundant jump buttons, at least let me map them to different kinds of jump instead of the exact same dual function.)

I've said my part about making A-Stick Smash a toggleable option, but I'm not so sure about having both short and full hop buttons AND light and strong buttons at the same time. There are only four buttons on the standard SNES/PlayStation-style controller nowadays after all. I think a standard 4-frame jumpsquat would work better, since even in Melee, Falco's 4-frame jumpsquat makes it infinitely easier for him to shorthop than Fox's and Ultimate's universal 3-frame.

Maybe multiple control options could work, but the limited number of buttons could put a dent in that plan.

I don't really trust Nintendo to do games-as-a-service, personally. They can barely handle post-launch support in general, it seems.

Post-launch support only really works for single-game franchises like Fortnite and Minecraft, honestly. At least Nintendo is clearly keeping to the old method of sequels rather than hypocritically trying to make a game last a long time while also making a sequel like the Overwatch "series".

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

I would rather prefer a particular input for the short and full hops like in KOF.

 

[Quillion]

I guess there's the XY macro for short hops in Ultimate, but that's admittedly rather difficult to use no matter which controller you're using.

And even then, I still want one of the XY buttons to be sacrificed for a "super meter" mechanic.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

Now that you talk again about supers, maybe another different alternative would be EX moves, basically would still be a "everyone is Cloud now" situation but I think it could work.

 

[Quillion]

Now that you talk again about supers, maybe another different alternative would be EX moves, basically would still be a "everyone is Cloud now" situation but I think it could work.

The way I have super specials working in mind is actually more similar to SF's EX moves (and Turbo's supers), since I don't want their to be the "freeze frame" for the wind-up. That would be frustrating in F4As if everyone uses supers at the same time.

 

[Deleted member]

There's a lot of things I'd change about Smash if I were in charge (adding actual movement, for instance), but the main thing I think Smash absolutely needs going forward is MULTIPLE ATTACK BUTTONS. People say adding more buttons would make Smash too complicated, but after playing Rivals and NASB, oh my god I can never go back to the "tilt stick for light attack, hard press for strong attack" system Smash does. There's a reason basically every alternative platform fighter currently on the market has dedicated light and strong attack buttons; it's just a straight-up better system that allows for more precise and expressive play.

Wait, how do the NASB and Rivals controls work? What does each button do on default?

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Wait, how do the NASB and Rivals controls work? What does each button do on default?

NASB has 3 attack buttons: strong, light, and special; there are no control stick flicking elements and using the right stick just makes you do a strong attack on ground or light attack in air - there are 3 specials (with Toph and Reptar as exceptions, both having seperate midair and ground down Bs), but there are 7 light attacks, and strong equivalents to each - including air attacks and the dash. The strong attacks in NASB can't be charged (with the exception of Shredder's down air strong and Toph's up ground stong, but for those the charging is more for positioning than power - you can also press the button again in the middle of Helga's strongs to make them more powerful, but that doesn't function at all like Smash attacks)

There's a grab button that works in both the air and ground, while the block button will turn into an air dash in the air. There's also a strafe button, and the taunt button has a niche air use of automatically putting you in stumble. There is no tap jump.

 

[Baysha]

Wait, how do the NASB and Rivals controls work? What does each button do on default?

Rivals is different. It's basically the same as Smash Bros except that strong attacks are mapped to a different button. Separate smash buttons don't have to bring all of the differences that NASB brings. While there is merit to NASB's control scheme, I do kinda feel it kinda hijacks the conversation to be about everything it brings instead of just the separate buttons.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

Air grabs and air dashes are things I would like to see.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I've said my part about making A-Stick Smash a toggleable option, but I'm not so sure about having both short and full hop buttons AND light and strong buttons at the same time. There are only four buttons on the standard SNES/PlayStation-style controller nowadays after all. I think a standard 4-frame jumpsquat would work better, since even in Melee, Falco's 4-frame jumpsquat makes it infinitely easier for him to shorthop than Fox's and Ultimate's universal 3-frame.

Maybe multiple control options could work, but the limited number of buttons could put a dent in that plan.

This is why I think better control mapping could work wonders for Smash. Rivals in particular does this really well, where you can enable or disable Smash-style attack inputs, customize your stick sensitivity down to the degree, or even put Jump or Special on a trigger or something. With Smash, this is technically achievable through custom button mapping within the Switch itself, but the options themselves still aren't all that robust. At the very least, stuff like dedicated short/full hop and light/strong attack buttons should ABSOLUTELY be a thing by now.

 

[Deleted member]

Working on a hypothetical new default control set using most of the ideas we’ve come up with so far. AB Smash attacks are still present, and dashes work as your typical fighting game ones. Use ZL+ZR to use a final smash. Thoughts? Questions?

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

Working on a hypothetical new default control set using most of the ideas we’ve come up with so far. AB Smash attacks are still present, and dashes work as your typical fighting game ones. Use ZL+ZR to use a final smash. Thoughts? Questions?

With the possibility that the next console would also be a hybrid one, how would this work in joycon-like controls?

 

[Quillion]

Working on a hypothetical new default control set using most of the ideas we’ve come up with so far. AB Smash attacks are still present, and dashes work as your typical fighting game ones. Use ZL+ZR to use a final smash. Thoughts? Questions?

• I think X would be a better default jump since it's close to A, and aerial normals are important.
• I think we just need one "dash/wavedash" button on L and combine that with the analog. ZL and ZR can still both be shield while R is grab.
• Final Smashes are still better off replacing Neutral B since they are uber-powerful items that aren't supposed to be balanced.

 

[Deleted member]

Fixed!