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Fix Super Smash Bros.!

Infinity Sorcerer

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I think its way better, but the dash and the grab button being mapped in the same button worries me, maybe it would be better having it in the shield button? Or don't have a macro for the dash.
 

Quillion

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I think its way better, but the dash and the grab button being mapped in the same button worries me, maybe it would be better having it in the shield button? Or don't have a macro for the dash.
Also BlueCRE BlueCRE :

JoyCon solo doesn't even need a grab button since Shield+A is the "intended" grab input anyway.

Otherwise the fix looks great!
 

BlueCRE

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Oh, okay! I’ll just remove the individual grab input, then! Glad to know that you guys like it! Though, A+B Smash / Strong Attacks are honestly more satisfying for me, so that’s why I didn’t give them their own individual input.
 

BlueCRE

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A question. What do you guys think of Smash’s movement? Things like how fast the characters move or if there’s any lag when inputting button presses. Is movement in Smash stiff? Slow? Laggy?
 

Ze Diglett

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I find the movement in Ultimate to be very stiff and restrictive. I'm not gonna say every platform fighter needs wavedashing to be good (though it certainly can't hurt), but it's another one of those things that drags down the overall gamefeel in my opinion. Basic actions like dropping through platforms and turning around out of a dash feel way too sluggish in Ultimate, and thanks to Sakurai's deliberate efforts to siphon every last bit of competitive nuance out of the series since Brawl, there's virtually no movement tech at all to speak of. It makes movement in general feel very lockstep and inexpressive even when I'm playing the fast characters, which makes the game outright painful to go back to coming off of more fluid and fast-paced games.
 
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Quillion

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I think the actual movement is fine but I would like to have more options to move, airdashes and better rolls would be nice.
Why do we need better rolls? Ultimate's staling roll (and other dodges) is as good as it gets, especially after the near-useless rolls of Melee and Brawl and the too-good rolls of Smash 4.

I find the movement in Ultimate to be very stiff and restrictive. I'm not gonna say every platform fighter needs wavedashing to be good (though it certainly can't hurt), but it's another one of those things that drags down the overall gamefeel in my opinion. Basic actions like dropping through platforms and turning around out of a dash feel way too sluggish in Ultimate, and thanks to Sakurai's deliberate efforts to siphon every last bit of competitive nuance out of the series since Brawl, there's virtually no movement tech at all to speak of. It makes movement in general feel very lockstep and inexpressive even when I'm playing the fast characters, which makes the game outright painful to go back to coming off of more fluid and fast-paced games.
Bro, Sakurai is trying to balance casual play and competitive play, not cater to one or the other. Stop spreading that misinformation.

We could certainly stand to have faster platform dropping (though I'm in favor of having a "double tap" option for that rather than "single tap" default), but I think turnaround being slow is somewhat necessary for easier RAR (standing/initial-dash RAR is another story tho). Though if you're referring to dashdancing for mixups instead, yeah we could have longer initial dashes too.

Anyway, the need for more movement options is why I'm in favor of adding the "wavedash button" plus the ability to cancel all jabs and tilts and some specials with it. Instead of all these Melee-wannabe platform fighters straight-copying Melee wavedashing, they can just turn it into its own dedicated mechanic and unleash its potential instead of leaving it as an emergent tech and limit its potential.
 

Wario Wario Wario

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Bro, Sakurai is trying to balance casual play and competitive play, not cater to one or the other. Stop spreading that misinformation.
The thing is, that compromise isn't really needed. That's what items and wacky stages are for, there's no need for casual-centric mechanics because casual players more likely than not won't notice the mechanics. Not to mention that the Mario Party audience would likely want a more frantic game anyway.
 

Quillion

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The thing is, that compromise isn't really needed. That's what items and wacky stages are for, there's no need for casual-centric mechanics because casual players more likely than not won't notice the mechanics. Not to mention that the Mario Party audience would likely want a more frantic game anyway.
Here's the thing: I find a lot of modern traditional fighting games very... "mechanically bloated." A lot of modern fighting games nowadays are full of vital mechanics like advancing guards, super jumps, parrying, bursts, reversals, just frames, etc. I know that the reason why modern fighters have those mechanics is "defensive design" so they can go as wild with characters as possible without impacting balance, but it's certainly a far cry from even Super SF2 Turbo where the most complicated inherent mechanic was the super move.

Yes, I do want Smash's core gameplay to expand, but I'd like for it to do so in ways that can unite both crowds in providing more options for competitive while being easy to use for casual. Nothing like the "conveniences" of modern fighting games.

There are also a few other theories I have as to why modern traditional fighting games struggle at getting casual players outside the big established names, like how the untrained eye can see a traditional 2D fighter as "just another SF2", and the widely known lack of single player content, but I think "mechanical bloat" definitely is a problem with that.
 
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Infinity Sorcerer

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There are also a few other theories I have as to why modern traditional fighting games struggle at getting casual players outside the big established names, like how the untrained eye can see a traditional 2D fighter as "just another SF2"
Is very sad how most people think that, especially when they probably doesn't even know how SF2 plays.
 

Quillion

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Is very sad how most people think that, especially when they probably doesn't even know how SF2 plays.
Just my perception, but the modern FGC also seems pretty insular about new paradigms for fighting games outside Capcom-style 2D fighters and VF/Tekken-style 3D fighters. The biggest variance they seem to tolerate are things like Street Fighter being footsies-based with relatively short combos and MvC/DBFZ having crazy long combos, with both being variants on the same general idea.

The knockback-based platform fighter pioneered by Smash is probably the only paradigm to compete with the "standard" 2D and 3D paradigms, and even then there's still lingering opposition within the modern FGC. And I'm pretty sure that the FGC's insularity is the main reason why PlayStation All-Stars and ARMS failed to become big IPs (granted, PSAS's core gameplay is terrible while ARMS, while very fun and challenging IMO, doesn't really know who it's made for, but you get the picture).

You may correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Torgo the Bear

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Okay, so I’m gonna make a few points here that I’ve mentioned before in profile posts way back, and some of these have been suggested on this thread already…but regardless…

These are the kind of things I’d be changing if I were to make a Smash of my own. In the past, I’ve considered making an Ultimate sequel that revives the entire cast and also adds a bunch of newcomers so that there’s a total of 100 characters, but more recently I’ve been feeling a bit more willing to make this more of my thing and not really a crowd pleaser kind of game.
  • First things first, I’m going to be altering gameplay a little. The Final Smash meter is now a permanent feature in gameplay, and is now much more similar to a Super Meter from other fighting games. The Meter raises over time, and every character has three possible Final Smashes depending on how long you let it charge for. The first is basically just a super special move (Mac’s KO Punch will be moved here, for example). The second is more akin to current Final Smashes, with moves on the level of Mario Finale, Ancient Bow and Arrow, or Ultimate’s Super Sonic. Finally, the third Final Smash, which is very difficult to reach, is always guaranteed to be a cutscene Final Smash that can only affect one opponent and is a guaranteed one hit KO if it lands. This will 99% of the time be some kind of major direct reference to the fighter’s source material, with some recycled Final Smashes like Dedede Rush or House of Boom
  • The other major gameplay feature is a casual and competitive variant for every single stage in the game, referred to as the “For Fun” and “For Glory” variants respectively. The For Glory variants will often share layouts, but every single For Fun stage will be completely unique. The stage selection itself will also notably be mostly made up of completely brand new stages and every playable character will have a unique dedicated home stage.
  • As for the character roster…I haven’t decided what I’ll do with it yet but not everyone will be back. This is going to be a fairly biased roster on my part, but I’ll still be aiming for a cast that can still appeal to players, with a nice blend of icons and oddities. Movesets for veterans will be changed on occasion, mainly dedicated to a design philosophy that’s intended to be in the middle of the Brawl and Smash 4 levels of references. You’ll definitely have a lot of cool nods and fun gimmicks, but very few characters will be ridiculous to learn like Kazuya (who, btw, probably won’t be returning in this game anyway).
  • I’ll work on deciding the roster later but some newcomers you can expect are Kris from Deltarune, Lip from Panel de Pon, and the Space Invaders.
  • This game is really intended to be equally accessible to casual item loving hazard players and competitive meta seeking tourney players. This is mainly achieved through a combination of plenty of single player content as well as easily accessible training mode labs and (as mentioned previously) a complete collection of competitive stages.
  • There will be an Adventure Mode that’s very similar to the one in Melee, but with more levels, bosses, branching paths, and such. This also features a little bit of a story, where every character has their own little opening and ending video in the mode explaining what they’re doing and trying to achieve, which does actually slightly impact what characters and enemies may be found in the levels (despite the levels themselves and the paths between them being the same each time).
  • Maybe I’ll have more ideas later. But this is just part of what I’d do with the series if I was inexplicably given the power.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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Just my perception, but the modern FGC also seems pretty insular about new paradigms for fighting games outside Capcom-style 2D fighters and VF/Tekken-style 3D fighters. The biggest variance they seem to tolerate are things like Street Fighter being footsies-based with relatively short combos and MvC/DBFZ having crazy long combos, with both being variants on the same general idea.

The knockback-based platform fighter pioneered by Smash is probably the only paradigm to compete with the "standard" 2D and 3D paradigms, and even then there's still lingering opposition within the modern FGC. And I'm pretty sure that the FGC's insularity is the main reason why PlayStation All-Stars and ARMS failed to become big IPs (granted, PSAS's core gameplay is terrible while ARMS, while very fun and challenging IMO, doesn't really know who it's made for, but you get the picture).

You may correct me if I'm wrong.
There is the general staple that there are 3 branches of the genre, the footsies in 2D with Street Fighter, the 3D spacing-management ones like Tekken and the crazy-ass combo maniac games like Marvel vs Capcom, even if there exists games that doesn't actually fall in any of the categories at first glance (Samurai Shodown being basically what I call a "defense game") or fall in a middle of these three (KOF with footsie and combo maniac, depending of the edition) it's just easier to talk about them since they are the most knowed ones.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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First things first, I’m going to be altering gameplay a little. The Final Smash meter is now a permanent feature in gameplay, and is now much more similar to a Super Meter from other fighting games. The Meter raises over time, and every character has three possible Final Smashes depending on how long you let it charge for. The first is basically just a super special move (Mac’s KO Punch will be moved here, for example). The second is more akin to current Final Smashes, with moves on the level of Mario Finale, Ancient Bow and Arrow, or Ultimate’s Super Sonic. Finally, the third Final Smash, which is very difficult to reach, is always guaranteed to be a cutscene Final Smash that can only affect one opponent and is a guaranteed one hit KO if it lands. This will 99% of the time be some kind of major direct reference to the fighter’s source material, with some recycled Final Smashes like Dedede Rush or House of Boom
Honestly I think the only way you can make the Final Smashes a permanent mechanic with the meter would be if al the Final Smashes are cutscenes with noticeable long startups, since there is a reason why the proper FS meter is banned of the competitive (even if I personally always turns on the FS, I love the mechanic but I know that if we want to make it part of the core gameplay it should be heavely reestructured not only the meter but the Final Smashes has a mechanic).
 
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Baysha

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Honestly I think the only way you can make the Final Smashes a permanent mechanic with the meter would be if al the Final Smashes are cutscenes with noticeable long startups, since there is a reason why the proper FS meter is banned of the competitive.
I've thought of giving FS's very long endlag. About the same length of time it takes for a fighter to respawn and get back in the fight. This way there's an element of risk to using one. If you don't get a K.O., say hello to a fully charged smash attack towards your face.
 

Quillion

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  • First things first, I’m going to be altering gameplay a little. The Final Smash meter is now a permanent feature in gameplay, and is now much more similar to a Super Meter from other fighting games. The Meter raises over time, and every character has three possible Final Smashes depending on how long you let it charge for. The first is basically just a super special move (Mac’s KO Punch will be moved here, for example). The second is more akin to current Final Smashes, with moves on the level of Mario Finale, Ancient Bow and Arrow, or Ultimate’s Super Sonic. Finally, the third Final Smash, which is very difficult to reach, is always guaranteed to be a cutscene Final Smash that can only affect one opponent and is a guaranteed one hit KO if it lands. This will 99% of the time be some kind of major direct reference to the fighter’s source material, with some recycled Final Smashes like Dedede Rush or House of Boom
Sounds kinda like PlayStation All-Stars's super system without the whole "supers only kill and only supers kill" thing.

How would it be activated though? If it replaces Neutral-B, that would impede the gameplay a lot. If it gets its own dedicated button, I'd rather just go with my "super special" system where it's mostly "powered up" versions of existing specials.

  • The other major gameplay feature is a casual and competitive variant for every single stage in the game, referred to as the “For Fun” and “For Glory” variants respectively. The For Glory variants will often share layouts, but every single For Fun stage will be completely unique. The stage selection itself will also notably be mostly made up of completely brand new stages and every playable character will have a unique dedicated home stage.
I think Battlefield and Omega modes, plus Small BF and Smashville modes would be good enough IMO. A lot of variety in just four layouts.
---
Anyway, I'll post my short ideas on how to do Adventure. In short, I would like to have several "mini Adventures", like Mario Adventure, Zelda Adventure, Metroid Adventure, Pokémon Adventure, Fire Emblem Adventure, Xenoblade Adventure, etc.

Each Adventure would only be three stages plus a boss, with each being a "summary" of the series as a whole. For example, Mario Adventure would involve running in a grassland, then an underground level, then finally Bowser's Castle, and then you fight Giga Bowser at the end. The other Adventures would be like that in different franchises. Of course, the staple enemies and visuals from each franchise would be represented.

Honestly I think the only way you can make the Final Smashes a permanent mechanic with the meter would be if al the Final Smashes are cutscenes with noticeable long startups, since there is a reason why the proper FS meter is banned of the competitive (even if I personally always turns on the FS, I love the mechanic but I know that if we want to make it part of the core gameplay it should be heavely reestructured not only the meter but the Final Smashes has a mechanic).
I've thought of giving FS's very long endlag. About the same length of time it takes for a fighter to respawn and get back in the fight. This way there's an element of risk to using one. If you don't get a K.O., say hello to a fully charged smash attack towards your face.
IDK, I think making FS competitively viable is a lost cause considering how wild and varied they are. Some are screen-clearing nukes while others are focused OHKOs. This is partly why I want my "super meter" mechanic so that we have something similar, but focused and smaller-scale to fit into existing competitive play.
 

Quillion

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Off-topic, but I personally think a third universal stage form like Omegas and Battlefields should be for casual play - Temple and KOF Stadium both feel like great candidates.
Temple and KOF Stadium both feel very tied to their original franchises in design though. Even something as harmless as Temple is meant to evoke Zelda dungeons by its very layout.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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IDK, I think making FS competitively viable is a lost cause considering how wild and varied they are. Some are screen-clearing nukes while others are focused OHKOs. This is partly why I want my "super meter" mechanic so that we have something similar, but focused and smaller-scale to fit into existing competitive play.
That's why I said that if FS where competitive viable then it should be only cutscenes (think in KOF XV Climaxes, SFV Critical Arts, Guilty Gear Instant Kills, BlazBlue Astral Heats, Melty Blood Last Arcs, etc), starts with a very big punch/projectile/portal/something else idk and then the cutscene where the character can go nuts happens, having some noticeable risks to prevent the spam.
 
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Quillion

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That's why I said that if FS where competitive viable then it should be only cutscenes (think in KOF XV Climaxes, SFV Critical Arts, Guilty Gear Instant Kills, BlazBlue Astral Heats, Melty Blood Last Arcs, etc), starts with a very big punch/projectile/portal/something else idk and then the cutscene where the character can go nuts happens.
I suppose you're right, but I really want transformation FS back. The multitude of cutscene-based FS in Ultimate is freaking boring.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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Install-like supers are good, but I guess they could only work with certain tweaks, particulary those who makes the character huge (Giga Bowser, Giga Mac) and those that makes the character fly and near-invulnerable (Super Sonic), unless they are more toned down I don't mind have more cutscene-based supers instead, that or "semi-cinematic" ones like Kazuya or Pyra/Mythra. (At least in this scenario of "competitive FS, honestly I think they shouldn't be allowed at all and just made them optional)
 
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Ze Diglett

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Bro, Sakurai is trying to balance casual play and competitive play, not cater to one or the other. Stop spreading that misinformation.

We could certainly stand to have faster platform dropping (though I'm in favor of having a "double tap" option for that rather than "single tap" default), but I think turnaround being slow is somewhat necessary for easier RAR (standing/initial-dash RAR is another story tho). Though if you're referring to dashdancing for mixups instead, yeah we could have longer initial dashes too.

Anyway, the need for more movement options is why I'm in favor of adding the "wavedash button" plus the ability to cancel all jabs and tilts and some specials with it. Instead of all these Melee-wannabe platform fighters straight-copying Melee wavedashing, they can just turn it into its own dedicated mechanic and unleash its potential instead of leaving it as an emergent tech and limit its potential.
I was partially exaggerating with that statement, but it is also objective fact that Ultimate removed tech from Smash 4, which removed tech from Brawl, which itself removed tech from Melee. If Sakurai were truly interested in making the game appealing for "all players", the devs could've at least added new tech for hardcore-leaning players to latch onto, but they just kinda... didn't. Actions speak louder than words, and I'm seeing all of the words and none of the actions. I'm not saying these old techniques need to come back exactly as they once were, but we should at least have something for the players who wanna spice up their movement a little. Casual players are not going to feel threatened by techniques that they don't even know exist and that's part of the big misconception that started this whole mess. The solution is not to remove these techniques wholesale, since then you're just removing what a bunch of people liked about the previous games and giving them nothing to compensate. Something like an airdash or a wavedash macro would do nicely to give people an option other than just running and jumping, and even making stuff like airdodging and dashdancing less slow and vulnerable would do a lot to make the game's movement in general feel more fluid and interesting.
I don't really see what you mean with the whole "Melee-wannabe wavedashing" thing. Games like Rivals of Aether adopt wavedashing and streamline it into an intended mechanic, is that not good enough because it's not on its own button or something?
 
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Quillion

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Ze Diglett Ze Diglett :
  • Do we really need pivoting considering the post-run skid can be canceled into anything but shielding?
  • L-Canceling is not an "emergent technique", just a dumb mechanic best replicated by semi-universally low landing lag.
  • The burst movement of DACUS, glide toss, and wavedashing could all be consolidated into my hypothetical "wavedash button".
  • Rivals's wavedash is kinda weird; you need to press jump and dodge at the same time, but also jump still has to be first? Seems like an arbitrary limitation to the macro just to appeal to casual-hating Melee players.
  • I also want an air dash for when you use the "wavedash button" in the air.
TBH, while Ultimate still doesn't emphasize emergent movement tech, it does make attacking a lot more flexible.
 

Ze Diglett

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Ze Diglett Ze Diglett :
  • Do we really need pivoting considering the post-run skid can be canceled into anything but shielding?
  • L-Canceling is not an "emergent technique", just a dumb mechanic best replicated by semi-universally low landing lag.
  • The burst movement of DACUS, glide toss, and wavedashing could all be consolidated into my hypothetical "wavedash button".
  • Rivals's wavedash is kinda weird; you need to press jump and dodge at the same time, but also jump still has to be first? Seems like an arbitrary limitation to the macro just to appeal to casual-hating Melee players.
  • I also want an air dash for when you use the "wavedash button" in the air.
TBH, while Ultimate still doesn't emphasize emergent movement tech, it does make attacking a lot more flexible.
I'm not arguing that perfect pivoting was some instrumental technique that ruins the game with its exclusion, but it does go to show how Ultimate felt the need to remove advanced techniques from a game that barely had any to begin with. You're right, L-canceling was a dumb arbitrary execution barrier and that one probably should've been removed, but the extra movement provided by those other techs has been completely lost with nothing to fill the gap. A "wavedash button" would be fine, I guess, but I don't really see why it couldn't be consolidated as part of the airdodge like it was in Melee. Reducing the landing lag and endlag of airdodges would kill two birds in one stone: it would make airdodges themselves feel better to use and it would make grounded and air-to-ground movement much more interesting. At most, I think a macro that presses jump and airdodge at the same time while still keeping them on separate buttons would be appropriate. (Of course, that's ignoring the possibility of just replacing the airdodge with an airdash wholesale, which I would also be down for.)
I think Rivals's wavedash is fine, honestly. It maintains the essence of Melee's wavedash, but makes it more accessible by allowing players to buffer a wavedash out of their jumpsquat. I perform wavedashes by pressing jump and airdodge simultaneously all the time, it's not that finicky.
 
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Quillion

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I'm not arguing that perfect pivoting was some instrumental technique that ruins the game with its exclusion, but it does go to show how Ultimate felt the need to remove advanced techniques from a game that barely had any to begin with. You're right, L-canceling was a dumb arbitrary execution barrier and that one probably should've been removed, but the extra movement provided by those other techs has been completely lost with nothing to fill the gap. A "wavedash button" would be fine, I guess, but I don't really see why it couldn't be consolidated as part of the airdodge like it was in Melee. Reducing the landing lag and endlag of airdodges would kill two birds in one stone: it would make airdodges themselves feel better to use and it would make grounded and air-to-ground movement much more interesting. At most, I think a macro that presses jump and airdodge at the same time while still keeping them on separate buttons would be appropriate. (Of course, that's ignoring the possibility of just replacing the airdodge with an airdash wholesale, which I would also be down for.)
I think Rivals's wavedash is fine, honestly. It maintains the essence of Melee's wavedash, but makes it more accessible by allowing players to buffer a wavedash out of their jumpsquat. I perform wavedashes by pressing jump and airdodge simultaneously all the time, it's not that finicky.
To be honest, I just see air dodging itself as a bad mechanic throughout the series to this point. The only reason Melee's was alright was entirely because, wavedashing aside, the helplessness made it extremely situational at best. Brawl-onward airdodging just slows down the aerial game since it turns it into a game of waiting and frame-trapping, and the successive nerfs to airdodging in post-Brawl games only mitigate the problem rather than removing it. Endlag or not, a maneuver that lets you become invulnerable for a moment is just going to slow the game down; I suppose this is why FromSoft's PvP, while a popular component of their Demon's Souls-onward games, has barely gained ground as an eSport even compared to Brawl.

I really want them to not only bring back wavedashing, but build upon it by adding both an airdash component and a "universal waveshine (wavejab/wavetilt)" to it while throwing away the airdodging part that makes aerial play a bit tedious.

You stated that you'd be down for air dashing replacing airdodging completely, but I'd go a step further and replace airdodging with air dashing (w/ the "wavedash button") AND air shielding and grabbing. This way, instead of more-or-less waiting for an airdodge to end or making the opponent wait to be hit by an attack through frametrapping, you can snappily react to an air shield by grabbing and throwing them (albeit only forward throws, no pummeling or clinging) while if you're in disadvantage, you can react to an aerial followup by shielding in midair.

I'm in favor of adding options AND making them easy to use, not add the mechanical bloat that plagues modern traditional fighters.
 

Quillion

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There is the general staple that there are 3 branches of the genre, the footsies in 2D with Street Fighter, the 3D spacing-management ones like Tekken and the crazy-ass combo maniac games like Marvel vs Capcom, even if there exists games that doesn't actually fall in any of the categories at first glance (Samurai Shodown being basically what I call a "defense game") or fall in a middle of these three (KOF with footsie and combo maniac, depending of the edition) it's just easier to talk about them since they are the most knowed ones.
Just wondering, are there any MvC/DBFZ-style "juggle fighters" in 3D?
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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Just wondering, are there any MvC/DBFZ-style "juggle fighters" in 3D?
I don't remind anyone tbh, probably the most similar thing would be Rival Schools/Project Justice, I aren't too much into 3D fighters so that's the most fast passed that I know but I can't really consider it at the same level of MvC or DBFZ. The other option would be an arena fighting game like the Ninja Storm and Budokai Tenkachi games.
 

MasterCheef

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1 MINIMALIZE INPUT LAG

2 replace (_ air jumps ) with ( Air Dashes _)

3 add a powerful forward air meter which gets charged by doing combos

4 In 1V1s Player fighters should always turn around to face 1 opponent when standing still

5 Move Titles: ( Supper Sudden Death ) and ( Ready Go) to the screen’s top

6 Give big stages their own ( seperate list + seperate random pick )

7 Taunt Fixes = Make Best taunts be up taunt & give better taunts

8 C stick default = tilt attacks
 

Quillion

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1 MINIMALIZE INPUT LAG

2 replace (_ air jumps ) with ( Air Dashes _)

3 add a powerful forward air meter which gets charged by doing combos

4 In 1V1s Player fighters should always turn around to face 1 opponent when standing still

5 Move Titles: ( Supper Sudden Death ) and ( Ready Go) to the screen’s top

6 Give big stages their own ( seperate list + seperate random pick )

7 Taunt Fixes = Make Best taunts be up taunt & give better taunts

8 C stick default = tilt attacks
Why would the super move be limited to Forward Air?

It would be better just made a traditional 2D fighting game Smash spin-off
I'm actually in favor of Capcom making Nintendo vs Capcom in the MvC paradigm.

That said, I hope they don't involve Sakurai, but only to give the hypothetical NvC its own identity like Pokkén.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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Why would the super move be limited to Forward Air?
Yeah I also had the same question lol.

I'm actually in favor of Capcom making Nintendo vs Capcom in the MvC paradigm.

That said, I hope they don't involve Sakurai, but only to give the hypothetical NvC its own identity like Pokkén.
Yeah that would be cool, I always thinked that if Smash Bros was a more traditional fighting game it would be like a mix of MvC and KOF (since it was the key for Sakurai's inspiration) with BlazBlue's Drive attacks like a reminiscent of the Special Button.
 

Quillion

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Forward Air is the easiest to hit. Also special moves may or may not be designed with knockback in mind. Forward air almost always is.
"Easiest to hit" depends though. There are pretty much two general Forward Air types in Smash: "strong, slow killer (meteor optional)", and "fast keepaway poke". The former is very hard to hit due to how slow they are (e.g. Mario, Banjo, Ganondorf, Falcon, Peach), while the latter is very easy to hit because of how fast they are (e.g. Fox, Luigi, Jigglypuff, R.O.B.).

This isn't like Back Airs which are near-universally "poke, combo extender, and killer all-in-one".

And still, even in my proposed "super meter" system, some of the non-damaging/knockback moves can still have super variants. Ness's Down Y can be Lifeup, which lets him gradually convert meter to health. Olimar's Down Y can be Ultra-Spicy Spray. WFT's Down Y can just be a souped-up Deep Breathing with more strength and healing.

I think having stronger variants of aerials is best used by an Aerial Smash system like Sakurai once considered for Ultimate. And I still stand by my opinion that we need an option to turn off A-stick Smash before that ever gets implemented.
 

BlueCRE

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Okay, so I got some questions…
1. How do you guys think Smash fares as a celebration / gathering of Nintendo All-Stars?
2. How do you guys think Smash fares as a celebration of gaming history?
3. How do you guys think Smash fares as a party game?
4. How do you guys think Smash fares as a fighting game?

…And with that, do you guys think that Smash Bros. would be better of if it committed to one theming and one genre?
 
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Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
Okay, so I got some questions…
1. How do you guys think Smash fares as a celebration / gathering of Nintendo All-Stars?
2. How do you guys think Smash fares as a celebration of gaming history?
3. How do you guys think Smash fares as a party game?
4. How do you guys think Smash fares as a fighting game?

…And with that, do you guys think that Smash Bros. would be better of if it committed to one theming and one genre?
My answer to #2 will simply be "they chose Banjo over Master Chief".
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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Okay, so I got some questions…
1. How do you guys think Smash fares as a celebration / gathering of Nintendo All-Stars?
2. How do you guys think Smash fares as a celebration of gaming history?
3. How do you guys think Smash fares as a party game?
4. How do you guys think Smash fares as a fighting game?

…And with that, do you guys think that Smash Bros. would be better of if it committed to one theming and one genre?
  1. Who cares
  2. Who cares
  3. Who cares
  4. Who cares
My general answer is that Smash is what Nintendo and/or Sakurai wants, they can throw you either Kratos or Navi if they want, and they would still selling Smash has a party game at the same time they (and more times the fans) makes competitive tournaments of the game.
 
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