Fix Super Smash Bros.!

[BlueCRE]

What is "Historia"?

Hoo boy! This’ll be fun!

Super Smash Bros. Historia

THIS PRESENTATION IS RECOMMENDED TO VIEW IN PRESENT MODE FOR THE FULL EXPERIENCE. Note: If you experience audio problems, close out of the slide and then re-enter.

docs.google.com

 

[Quillion]

Hoo boy! This’ll be fun!

Super Smash Bros. Historia

THIS PRESENTATION IS RECOMMENDED TO VIEW IN PRESENT MODE FOR THE FULL EXPERIENCE. Note: If you experience audio problems, close out of the slide and then re-enter.

docs.google.com

Some critiques then... (Admittedly I skipped to the mechanics since that's all I care for at this point)

The UI looks a little cluttered, but admittedly it's a lot more unique than the usual horizontal super meter. We might get used to it over time.

Also, I feel like airdashing that puts you in helpless if you don't land an attack leads to the same issue that Melee had with its Air Dodge. It just makes it too risky.

And I stand by my opinion that Final Smashes should remain Smash Ball-activated if we get a Super Special system. I really don't think there's any viable way to consolidate them into something for competitive.

ATs being selectable and summonable at will like MvC1 though? That's a neat idea. Though given how wild and varied ATs are now, they might have to impose strict limits on them.

Your presentation is really nice and stylish though. Maybe consider turning it into a video on YouTube.

 

[BlueCRE]

Some critiques then... (Admittedly I skipped to the mechanics since that's all I care for at this point)

The UI looks a little cluttered, but admittedly it's a lot more unique than the usual horizontal super meter. We might get used to it over time.

Also, I feel like airdashing that puts you in helpless if you don't land an attack leads to the same issue that Melee had with its Air Dodge. It just makes it too risky.

And I stand by my opinion that Final Smashes should remain Smash Ball-activated if we get a Super Special system. I really don't think there's any viable way to consolidate them into something for competitive.

ATs being selectable and summonable at will like MvC1 though? That's a neat idea. Though given how wild and varied ATs are now, they might have to impose strict limits on them.

Your presentation is really nice and stylish though. Maybe consider turning it into a video on YouTube.

A quick note that air dashes allow you to perform one mov if you don’t intend on landing an attack, meaning you can still use your recovery.

 

[Quillion]

A quick note that air dashes allow you to perform one mov if you don’t intend on landing an attack, meaning you can still use your recovery.

I think it would be better if air dash just disables your jump after doing it.

Or if you want a "looser" game, there can be one air dash per jump (one for ground jump and one for double jump).

Air dashing then whiffing a combo-move aerial putting you in helpless still seems too limiting.

 

[Quillion]

I've been thinking that having "wavedashing" on one trigger and shielding/rolling/dodging on the other like I suggested earlier in the thread might be mechanical bloat. And I've really come to hate mechanical bloat.

So what if wavedashing just replaced rolling outright? Maybe give a forward wavedash a special property that it can still cross-up, but otherwise give it no intangibility in exchange for increased speed and microspacing capability.

 

[Perkilator]

Borrowed this from a Discord server I’m a part of because goddamnit SSBU’s single player is virtually barren.

 

[Quillion]

Platforming levels

I still think that'll require a big rework on how enemies work, but I agree.

Mode Builder

Nah, I don't really think that's a substitute for lack of professional resources for those old modes. They should continue to improve the Stage Builder more than anything.

Boss Battles

That could also work, but we'll need more bosses in general.

All-Star Smash

Multi-man just needs to go back to the way it was in general tbh.

All-Star Mode

Honestly, I actually agree with the idea that the roster is too big for one straight All-Star Mode. I think a good compromise would be to have multiple smaller All-Star Modes so that it isn't so damn long.

 

[Perkilator]

Obligatory FE post

There was another thread from a few years back but it's been long since closed. If you could change Fire Emblem's representation in Smash in terms of playable characters, how would you? And don't just say "don't rep FE at all", either. For me:

Character	Marth	Lyn	Ike	Awakening Rep	Azura	Byleth
Image​	View attachment 376162​	View attachment 376168​	View attachment 376166​	(I'd go for either Robin or Chrom with Lucina as an alt)​	View attachment 376163​	View attachment 376164​
First Appearance​	Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light (1990)​	The Blazing Blade (2003)​	Path of Radiance (2005)​	Awakening (2013)​	Fates (2015)​	Three Houses (2019)​
Smash Appearences​	64​ Melee​ Brawl​ Sm4sh​ Ultimate​	Brawl​ Smash 3DS​ Ultimate​	Brawl​ Smash Wii U​ Ultimate​	Sm4sh (base game)​ Ultimate​	Sm4sh (DLC)​ Ultimate​	Ultimate (DLC)​
Class / Weapon​	Lord (Falchion)​	Blade Lord (Mani Katti / Sol Katti / Mulagir)​	Lord (Ragnell / Urvan)​	Either Lord (Falchion / Gradivus / Javelin) or Tactician (Tomes)​	Songstress (Lance)​	Professor (Sword of the Creator / Amyr / Areadbhar / Failnaught)​
Playstyle​	Force and Finesse​	Fragile Speedster​	Mighty Glacier​	Depends on the character​	Glass Cannon​	Multi-Melee Tactical Master​
Reason​	Was considered for 64 alongside Bowser, King Dedede and Mewtwo, so I figured all four of them should get in with more dev time​	Was the first Lord to be introduced in Blazing Blade, the first FE game to be released internationally​	Mostly due to his popularity on his own; his moveset would remain mostly unchanged, but he'd also wield his father's axe in his Smash attacks​	Awakening was the game that saved the franchise, but since I only wanted to do one Awakening rep, take your pick out of the three I listed​	Mostly to promote Fates, but I went with Azura due to the higher moveset potential with her lance, singing and water bending​	Mostly to promote Three Houses, but he would be in Fighters Pass Vol. 2 and Steve would be moved to Vol. 1​

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

If I was put in charge of the next Smash, I would actually drop any pretenses of being a competitively viable game - remove all the advanced tech (even stuff that has survived since 64 like teching and DI), make movesets ****ing ridiculous and TwoFlickiesCore with only super-iconic characters like the Melee high tiers keeping their kits, expand the roster even further, introduce an equivalent to Mario Kart's smart steering, so on - while it's not my ideal Smash game by any means, I think that'd be more efficient, since there's less keeping up with the meta and it'd make more money, while being more fun than whatever modern Smash is supposed to be - HOWEVER, I would not make the game a slog to move around in. It'd still have super free-form and fast movement, since I think that would add to the chaotic vibe.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

As much as it's the height of hubris to look at something and say you can do better, I may as well give this a shot.

Presuming this is a situation where I'm put in charge of the game for the next entry, and it's something completely new...

• Reboot the series. Hard. This might seem like a weird choice to go with, but I'd want us to be free from expectations and requirements from previous entries in the series so as to allow for more creativity and expression, not being stuck with (in cases) decades-old choices made from necessity for the sake of keeping older fans happy.
  • No more selling based on "big number." A big part of Ultimate's marketing can basically be boiled down to "big number". "Look how many fighters/music tracks/Spirits/stages we have!" It's impressive, but I think moving away from that sort of mentality will do the series a lot of good.
    • Reduce the base-roster count to about 40. Roughly Brawl's roster size is pretty adequate for a game like this, it's fairer for developers, there's less concern for balancing, and you can still represent pretty sizable swathes of Nintendo's history. Plus, it actively rewards characters feeling more mechanically unique - in a roster like Ultimate's, 4 or 5 characters that feel basically identical is more forgivable than in a roster like Brawl's.
  • Move focus away from third-party representation, with a couple of exceptions. I think pivoting the focus of the Smash series to "a celebration of Nintendo's history" would work well for this. "Gaming history" is too large and vague a concept to try and represent as a whole, but Nintendo's history seems a bit more manageable. That said, third-party inclusions that make sense are fair game, but I'd pivot focus heavily away from them. Maybe two third-party characters to start with? (Presumably Sonic and then maybe Mega Man.)
  • Keep things fast, but simple. Whilst I think the introduction of UI elements to aid with visuals can help with some of Ultimate's characters, it's gotten a little farcical. A back-to-basics approach in which characters feel a little more unified without overuse of character-specific gimmicks would be a good call for a game like this, and would fit the "party game" nature that Smash tries to brand itself as a little more. Plus, this also means binning a lot of more of the game's complex tech - but in contrast, upping the speed by keeping characters fast. It should be a game where you feel cool playing any character, regardless of their position on a tier list or of your own skill.
  • Rethink representation. The online consensus on "representation" seems to be that characters are the be-all and end-all, and being an Assist Trophy is some sign of inferiority. I don't think this should be the case. Some franchises or characters might work better as items, stages, and so forth - and that's okay. In fact, I'd actively promote this line of thinking - how else would we be able to effectively represent franchises like Pilotwings? Not only this, but representing more obscure parts of Nintendo's past deserves just as much thought as more modern "promotional" picks.
  • Return the series's visual identity to its more cartoonish feel. One of the elements of 64 I particularly like is the slightly cartoonish feel of gameplay, almost as though it's intended to represent a child's imagination. (Though the menus being "90s grunge" didn't help.) Ultimate's visual design, whilst distinctive, feels a little too serious and clean-cut for what is, at the end of the day, a punch-up between Super Mario, Pikachu, Kirby and Link.
  • Trim down music selection, and focus almost entirely on remixes. One element of Melee that I especially enjoyed is that almost all of the tracks present are remixes, usually orchestral. (The exceptions also make a lot of sense, like the 8-bit Overworld theme from Super Mario Bros. for Mushroom Kingdom.) Of course, I also think that remixes should have more musical variety, especially in genre - anywhere from electronica to bossa nova to vocal cover would work wonders. It just gives the game it's own unique feel compared to others, even if you don't have another "big number" to sell the game with.
• Rethink character inclusions from the ground up. When the actual Smash series still has Ganondorf as a semi-clone of Captain Falcon after over 20 years because of a decision made at the tail end of a development cycle, when Sonic - renowned for his speed - plays best as a keep-away hit-and-run character, or when Echo Fighters like Dark Samus are included that would have so much potential as their own roster slots, it seems like a good opportunity to really rethink every character on the roster. Of course, some basic concepts should be kept - Mario's role as an "introductory" character springs to mind for that sort of thing.
  • Have characters capture the feel of their source material, without being beholden to it. I think that, conceptually, Mega Man suffers the most from this, but Simon somewhat excels from it. Keeping a character too close to their source material runs the risk of making them feel detached and alienated from the rest of the game's characters, but keeping their general vibe intact can help to make them feel more genuine.
  • Limit prominent character-specific "gimmicks". Whilst smaller elements, like unique shields or certain smaller fighter abilities, are a lot of fun and absolutely worth keeping around... I don't think that like, half the roster should have meters that do completely different things. This admittedly could work well with a couple of characters here and there - Villager being a decent example of this - but overuse of this seems like a bad idea to me.
• Provide a reasonable balance between single-player and multi-player content. The Smash series has had a problem in the past with singleplayer content, and I think it's time we looked at this more closely. An Adventure/Subspace type mode might be a good way of alleviating this, as are some of the minigames, but adding additional pieces of content like an All-Star Mode, re-introducing descriptions for Spirits/Trophies, and so forth would do wonders. Smash Run is another good example of this kind of thing done right!
  • More customisation & creativity. An improved and more open-ended Stage Builder, for starters, feels like a good way of doing this - but a few other ideas come to mind as well. For instance, imagine having four "extra" alts on every character, which you can customise the colours of with a colour wheel? That way, fan-favourite recolours that are "missing" - like Fire Mario - can be brought back, as can weirder or more unusual colour schemes that a player can create. Bringing back Custom Moves also genuinely seems like a good idea to me, on the condition that their unlock criteria is simpler overall.
  • More emphasis on history. I think that if Smash is going to be a "celebration of Nintendo history", it'd be fantastic to have a museum of sorts. Alongside elements like descriptions for your collectables (as well as for stages and fighters!), one element I'd personally love to see is an actual Museum Mode. In the mode, there'd be all kinds of content for each series - organised by "rooms" that you can enter, and then interact with the exhibits inside. Say you wanted to check out the Kirby room - there'd be statues of the different characters represented in the game, maybe 3D models of Kirby box art from the past, and so on and so forth. This doesn't have to be a huge focus of the game, but it'd be nice for it to exist for those quieter sessions between bouts to really add some meat onto the bones of the game.
• If you want a party game... stop taking it so seriously! I think Smash is at its best when it's a bit goofy. If you wanted a serious, grindy fighting game of some sort, there's an entire genre of tradfighters out there for you - and the blossoming platfighter genre seems to be taking its cues from Melee for the most part anyways. Most of Nintendo's IPs aren't these big, serious franchises - they're supposed to be fun, light-hearted, and different from the competition. Obviously some - like Metroid - are going to be different, but even then, it can all come together in a slightly less self-serious package.

There's a lot more changes I'd probably make, but this is more of a general overview of some of the things I'd change on a macroscopic level.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Pulling a Project X Zone and cut all cartoony/scrimblo franchises,
This includes Steve. Smash is now a 100% balanced video game.

Spoiler: Characters that will be no longer with us. Gone but never forgotten

1. Mario
2. Dr. Mario
3. Donkey Kong
4. Yoshi
5. Kirby
6. Fox
7. Luigi
8. Ness
9. Peach
10. Daisy
11. Bowser
12. Ice Climbers
13. Falco
14. Mr. Game & Watch
15. Meta Knight
16. Wario
17. Diddy Kong
18. Lucas
19. Sonic
20. King Dedede
21. Olimar
22. R.O.B.
23. Toon Link
24. Wolf
25. Villager
26. Mega Man
27. Rosalina & Luma
28. Pac-Man
29. Bowser Jr.
30. Duck Hunt
31. Inkling
32. King K. Rool
33. Isabelle
34. Piranha Plant
35. Banjo-Kazooie
36. Min Min
37. Steve
38. Mii Brawler
39. Mii Swordfighter
40. Mii Gunner

(This post was done as a joke, but as Vegitto said "Esto ya no es divertido, es triste".)

 

[Quillion]

If I was put in charge of the next Smash, I would actually drop any pretenses of being a competitively viable game - remove all the advanced tech (even stuff that has survived since 64 like teching and DI), make movesets ****ing ridiculous and TwoFlickiesCore with only super-iconic characters like the Melee high tiers keeping their kits, expand the roster even further, introduce an equivalent to Mario Kart's smart steering, so on - while it's not my ideal Smash game by any means, I think that'd be more efficient, since there's less keeping up with the meta and it'd make more money, while being more fun than whatever modern Smash is supposed to be

You sound like you'd be a fan of the CMC+ build of Smash Crusade. I encourage you check out what those guys have been cooking up (especially since the latest build has the improved movement that 0.9.5 implemented).

HOWEVER, I would not make the game a slog to move around in. It'd still have super free-form and fast movement, since I think that would add to the chaotic vibe.

You think Smash should just take out skidding out of a turned run altogether? I'm sure that would help both casual and competitive if anything.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I do wonder if there's a way to destigmatize Assist Trophies the same way the echo fighter rename destigmatized clones - maybe create a design for the item that looks less... cramped and prison-y? Or introduce ATs of non-cut playable characters alongside NPCs?

 

[FazDude]

I feel like that a redesign is the best way to go (especially if Spirits become the norm above trophies) - Maybe have them resemble those spirit orbs from WOL?

 

[Quillion]

Maybe ATs can either be selectable assists like in Smash Crusade CMC+ and Fraymakers, or once you pick them up, you can summon them on command somehow (perhaps by taunt).

Speaking of Trophies, those should coexist alongside Spirits, but only for the fighters.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I do wonder if there's a way to destigmatize Assist Trophies the same way the echo fighter rename destigmatized clones - maybe create a design for the item that looks less... cramped and prison-y? Or introduce ATs of non-cut playable characters alongside NPCs?

I think making them selectable like in every other fighting game with assists would go a long way in making them feel like an important part of the game. Their current role being shackled to one item and each being one of 50+ outcomes that can result from that item makes them feel kind of ancillary to the overall experience whereas they wouldn't if the game were designed around them. Plus, this would enable interesting team-ups between playable and non-playable characters in a much more satisfying way than Spirits ever did.

 

[Quillion]

I think making them selectable like in every other fighting game with assists would go a long way in making them feel like an important part of the game. Their current role being shackled to one item and each being one of 50+ outcomes that can result from that item makes them feel kind of ancillary to the overall experience whereas they wouldn't if the game were designed around them. Plus, this would enable interesting team-ups between playable and non-playable characters in a much more satisfying way than Spirits ever did.

The one drawback is that if the game were designed around them, we wouldn't have some of the bigger assists like Rath or Andross.

 

[Ze Diglett]

The one drawback is that if the game were designed around them, we wouldn't have some of the bigger assists like Rath or Andross.

True, but on the flip side, assists being a core mechanic would incentivize them to make each one balanced so we don't run into any Nintendogs or Tikis. You could even still keep some goofy ones like Riki that have random, but still helpful effects.

 

[Quillion]

True, but on the flip side, assists being a core mechanic would incentivize them to make each one balanced so we don't run into any Nintendogs or Tikis. You could even still keep some goofy ones like Riki that have random, but still helpful effects.

I feel the same way about FS honestly. I think it would be better if we had smaller-scale super moves that ran off meter integrated into the game instead of flashy yet inconsistent moves that feel so disconnected from it.

 

[Lenidem]

No

The one drawback is that if the game were designed around them, we wouldn't have some of the bigger assists like Rath or Andross.

Not necessarily. Each assist could have a cool-down whose duration is related to his power. You want to unleash Rathalos or Andross on the battlefield? Fine, but you can most likely do it only once per match, while, say, Krystal or Waluigi could arrive more often.

 

[Perkilator]

I just made a thread about what lessons Smash could take from other platform fighters.

 

[MasterCheef]

Master Chief , gets in over , Cloud.

Ahri , gets in over , Kazuya

This is assuming no , FP3 , or , Ahri , & , Master Chief , do not get in for a FP3

 

[Quillion]

Master Chief , gets in over , Cloud.

Ahri , gets in over , Kazuya

This is assuming no , FP3 , or , Ahri , & , Master Chief , do not get in for a FP3

You're so obsessed with Ahri and Chief. I see you posting about them everywhere. Make like a bridge and get over it.
----
I've been saying this in other threads, but Smash should reduce the range of speed between the fast characters and the slow characters. I understand having a variety of playstyles, but there's a point in variety where the characters aren't supported by the same design anymore.

 

[MasterCheef]

You're so obsessed with Ahri and Chief. I see you posting about them everywhere. Make like a bridge and get over it.
----
I've been saying this in other threads, but Smash should reduce the range of speed between the fast characters and the slow characters. I understand having a variety of playstyles, but there's a point in variety where the characters aren't supported by the same design anymore.

Does this mean you support getting rid of , Sonic , Captain Falcon , Little Mac, Fox ?

Also i see everyone else always taking about their favorites. Why do you point out just me ?

 

[Quillion]

Does this mean you support getting rid of , Sonic , Captain Falcon , Little Mac, Fox ?

Nope, if anything make them slightly faster while making characters like Dedede and Ganondorf significantly faster.

Also i see everyone else always taking about their favorites. Why do you point out just me ?

This is the place for fixing Smash as a whole in terms of mechanics and modes. There's a whole speculation thread for what you're wanting.