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Fix Super Smash Bros.!

BlueCRE

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So there’s already a thread that speaks on Smash Bros.’ problems, right? So, why not create a thread that allows people to critique and come up with solutions to them? That’s what this is for! Debates on these solutions are allowed as well, so long as they are civil. Hopefully this idea is original, lmao.
 

Quillion

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To preemptively fix Smash's stagnation with core gameplay, I have a few solutions:
  1. Consolidate Cloud's Limit, Mac's KO Punch, and Terry's Desperation into a single "super meter" mechanic, and map the "Super Special" button to Y by default. You can build the super meter up to three charges, and using one super special will expend one of those charges (with a few exceptions). Super specials will be powered-up versions of existing specials, not new moves though.
  2. Offer alternative movesets for certain characters (mainly the 64/Melee veterans) while keeping their original movesets as default to satiate those who want them revamped.
  3. Add a "wavedash button" mapped to R by default. This would let you essentially wavedash easily, and it would even let you adjust the length of the wavedash by tilting the control stick as in Melee. What's more, all jabs and tilts as well as a few specials (like Reflector) should be cancelable with the "wavedash button", which would allow for greater grounded combo opportunities.
They don't have to do all at once, though. Maybe just one at a time.
 

BlueCRE

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Interesting ideas, Quillion! I think the things you listed were pretty creative. Though, if I may ask, what function would the super specials serve? How would they add to or improve the gameplay?
 

Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
A really simple one: Stop treating fighters as a big deal - no devoted reveals or anything, just reveal them all in the span of 3 trailers or a few blog posts. This sounds like sacrelige, especially for people my age or younger who got into Smash with the Namco games, but I feel it would be a net positive for both the fandom and series - less debates; anxiety; and woes online, and more room for experimental; weird; obscure; and generally un-marketable characters for the devs. Nintendo corporate would hate it though, LMAO

There's an old status post I made that may apply to this, relating to custom moves and moveset faithfulness
I think if I was to redo Smash's take on custom moves, I'd design them exclusively and explicitly for casual play - those base 4 special moves make up a solid fighting character with strengths and weaknesses, but the alternate versions are crazy source material fanservice that isn't really balanced or based on a playstyle - made for button mashers and lovers of busy screens above all - for example, Captain Falcon jumping into a Blue Falcon to ram it into foes and explode, doesn't fit his playstyle, and there aren't many downsides to just lingering in the seat, but it's cool and nostalgic so here it is in the customs. That way the "he did the thing" crowd is statisfied, but competitive or just attentive players used/attached to the old movesets are satisfied too. A lot of Ultimate and to a lesser extent 3DS/Wii U's newcomers would probably have their default specials changed to alternates.
 

BlueCRE

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A really simple one: Stop treating fighters as a big deal - no devoted reveals or anything, just reveal them all in the span of 3 trailers or a few blog posts. This sounds like sacrelige, especially for people my age or younger who got into Smash with the Namco games, but I feel it would be a net positive for both the fandom and series - less debates; anxiety; and woes online, and more room for experimental; weird; obscure; and generally un-marketable characters for the devs. Nintendo corporate would hate it though, LMAO

There's an old status post I made that may apply to this, relating to custom moves and moveset faithfulness
I think that’s very reasonable. If reveals cause anxiety as they are now, then all the better! It makes it so that fans are more reasonable pre and post-reveal. This makes me wonder about what it would be like if Smash did their trailers like other fighting games. Just drop the character trailer online, then see who it is from the thumbnail and click to look at the gameplay.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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A really simple one: Stop treating fighters as a big deal - no devoted reveals or anything, just reveal them all in the span of 3 trailers or a few blog posts. This sounds like sacrelige, especially for people my age or younger who got into Smash with the Namco games, but I feel it would be a net positive for both the fandom and series - less debates; anxiety; and woes online, and more room for experimental; weird; obscure; and generally un-marketable characters for the devs. Nintendo corporate would hate it though, LMAO
Changing how Smash is marketed is not going to change how the roster is selected because Sakurai isn't and has never been in charge of marketing Smash games. Having everything revealed in a few trailers isn't gonna change how Sakurai chooses his fighters.

Also, this is a crossover fighter. Characters have to be a big deal by definition.
 
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Digital Hazard

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A really simple one: Stop treating fighters as a big deal - no devoted reveals or anything, just reveal them all in the span of 3 trailers or a few blog posts. This sounds like sacrelige, especially for people my age or younger who got into Smash with the Namco games, but I feel it would be a net positive for both the fandom and series - less debates; anxiety; and woes online, and more room for experimental; weird; obscure; and generally un-marketable characters for the devs. Nintendo corporate would hate it though, LMAO

There's an old status post I made that may apply to this, relating to custom moves and moveset faithfulness
I like obscure characters getting a time to shine.

But a crossover in today's world has to by definition be, for the most part, a big deal. Like even NASB who has your Powered Toast Man still has to get bignames like Aang or Spongebob by obligation for marketing.
 

Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
I like obscure characters getting a time to shine.

But a crossover in today's world has to by definition be, for the most part, a big deal. Like even NASB who has your Powered Toast Man still has to get bignames like Aang or Spongebob by obligation for marketing.
Changing how Smash is marketed is not going to change how the roster is selected because Sakurai isn't and has never been in charge of marketing Smash games. Having everything revealed in a few trailers isn't gonna change how Sakurai chooses his fighters.

Also, this is a crossover fighter. Characters have to be a big deal by definition.
I think you're all misinterpreting what I'm saying - I'm not saying "stop putting in popular characters", but rather "stop hyping up characters like the second coming of Christ to lower discourse, a positive side effect of this is that more strange and obscure characters could be added without majorly disappointing people"
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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I think you're all misinterpreting what I'm saying - I'm not saying "stop putting in popular characters", but rather "stop hyping up characters like the second coming of Christ to lower discourse, a positive side effect of this is that more strange and obscure characters could be added without majorly disappointing people"
Again, this is a crossover fighter. The bigger the crossover, the bigger the draw.

If you think that's a problem, it's not Smash's fault, but rather all of society's because this is how successful crossovers have always worked. "Master Chief joins Smash" is a way bigger headline than "Jill from Drill Dozer joins the roster" and that gets people's attention way more.

And again, changing how the marketing handles "hyping up characters" doesn't change how the characters are selected in the first place because these two things are handled by different people.

Are you sure I'm misinterpreting if my rebuttal to your rebuttal is to literally just repeat my points again?
 
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Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
Again, this is a crossover fighter. The bigger the crossover, the bigger the draw.

If you think that's a problem, it's not Smash's fault, but rather all of society's because this is how successful crossovers have always worked. "Master Chief joins Smash" is a way bigger headline than "Jill from Drill Dozer joins the roster" and that gets people's attention way more.

And again, changing how the marketing handles "hyping up characters" doesn't change how the characters are selected in the first place.

Are you sure I'm misinterpreting if my rebuttal to your rebuttal is to literally just repeating my points again?
Let me get something out there: I don't care about sales; hype; or success. That is an irrelevant factor to me. I'm speaking entirely on what I think is better for the game's quality and the civility of the fandom. If I was talking what's capitalistically realisable or predicting the next step for the series, I wouldn't be on this thread and I'd instead go to a "Break Super Smash Bros." thread

Also, while this COULD be coincidence, the amount of obscure characters (not including fan requested picks) added to Smash has also decreased as marketing has become higher in budget (Melee, with no individual reveals, had the super obscure ICs and to a lesser extent G&W who was still making games but not recognised as a distinct character yet and sidelined by Mario and co. in said games - technically Marth and Roy for US audiences; Brawl, with blog reveals, had no character who could truly be considered obscure but did have Pit and ROB as throwbacks for the more diehard Nintendo fans, as well as Lucas for US audiences even if his series was already known to Smash fans; 3DS/Wii U with full trailers done mostly through Nintendo Directs had Duck Hunt and Little Mac, two extremely iconic characters one of which was hot off a revival, as its retros - technically Mac doesn't seem that popular in Japan, but his US popularity more than negates that; and the closest SSBU gets to an obscure character is Plant - an extremely popular and merchandised character recognised by multi millions of people worldwide who's only graced with this title for being "wacky") - perhaps deep cuts can coexist with trailers, and perhaps trailers disappearing won't make deep cuts magically appear, I don't know, but I find it hard to recognise as coincidence.
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

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Let me get something out there: I don't care about sales; hype; or success. That is an irrelevant factor to me. I'm speaking entirely on what I think is better for the game's quality and the civility of the fandom. If I was talking what's capitalistically realisable or predicting the next step for the series, I wouldn't be on this thread and I'd instead go to a "Break Super Smash Bros." thread

Also, while this COULD be coincidence, the amount of obscure characters (not including fan requested picks) added to Smash has also decreased as marketing has become higher in budget (Melee, with no individual reveals, had the super obscure ICs and to a lesser extent G&W who was still making games but not recognised as a distinct character yet and sidelined by Mario and co. in said games - technically Marth and Roy for US audiences; Brawl, with blog reveals, had no character who could truly be considered obscure but did have Pit and ROB as throwbacks for the more diehard Nintendo fans, as well as Lucas for US audiences even if his series was already known to Smash fans; 3DS/Wii U with full trailers done mostly through Nintendo Directs had Duck Hunt and Little Mac, two extremely iconic characters one of which was hot off a revival, as its retros - technically Mac doesn't seem that popular in Japan, but his US popularity more than negates that; and the closest SSBU gets to an obscure character is Plant - an extremely popular and merchandised character recognised by multi millions of people worldwide who's only graced with this title for being "wacky") - perhaps deep cuts can coexist with trailers, and perhaps trailers disappearing won't make deep cuts magically appear, I don't know, but I find it hard to recognise as coincidence.
Let's take a look at another platform fighter then, one that isn't afraid of deeper cuts; Nick All-Star Brawl.

There's definitely some weird picks that are chosen either because they make more sense than the main protagonist (Helga over Arnold due to the latter being a pacifist), being more interesting (Oblina over the other two main characters of Ahhhh! Real Monsters! or April and Shredder being more interesting than just four turtles) or, most simple of all, memes (Nigel and Hugh)

But all the shows represented in there are absolutely iconic to any era of Nick, be it 90s, 2000s or 2010s. The most "obscure" thing there is is probably My Life as a Teenage Robot, and even then it's hard to deny Jenny got in through fan demand because of all the polls.

And how is the marketing for that game? 30 second trailers for each character (except Korra lol) with another video that's talking about the moveset.

This proves that marketing does not reduce the amount of obscure choices that can be made. Correlation does not equal causation.
 
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GothicSlenderman

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Some other platform fighters have already made changes that fixes some of my problems with Smash and also made me realize some I didn't even think were problems.

-Nick All-Star and Multiversus don't have front or back airs as you can freely turn in the air
-Multiversus has a wall climb and even design stages around it.
-Nick All-Star has strafing
-Nick's reflecting projectiles with regular attacks
-More accessibility and customization
-(preaching to the choir here but) Rollback Netcode or better online in general
-Characters interact with each through unique dialouge.
-Embrace the competitive scene and content creators
-Listen to it's audience (Smash does this sometimes but I think Nick and Multiversus do it more and way better)
-Multiversus does one thing I had a massive gripe with in Smash and that's ACTUALLY TELL ME WHEN MY SECOND JUMP IS USED. Some times I'll accidentally double tap the jump button or there's some accidental input and I try to use the double jump when I need it but I get confused why it's not coming out and by the time I realize what's going on it's too late. Multiversus has a audio que for when you can no longer use an additional input AND you can use your air dodge and up special twice in the air.
-Also more visual ques informing me of certain aspects I might not be aware of or are timed but don't show it.

I'm not saying just turn Smash into a hybrid of Nick or Multiversus. But honestly, it's things like this that remind me why it's good that the Platform Fighting genre is taking off.
 

BlueCRE

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If you guys don’t mind me butting in, I think that a route Smash could take that would make me happy is including both characters with a marketing factor and more deep cuts. With marketing characters, you have content that your general audience will know and already enjoy, enticing them to pick up the game. With more deep cuts, your audience may be introduced to fighters they haven’t heard of before, learning more about them through how they are portrayed in Smash. I think that this would kill two birds with one stone, making something that is marketable and interest-garnering as a crossover.
 

Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
If you guys don’t mind me butting in, I think that a route Smash could take that would make me happy is including both characters with a marketing factor and more deep cuts. With marketing characters, you have content that your general audience will know and already enjoy, enticing them to pick up the game. With more deep cuts, your audience may be introduced to fighters they haven’t heard of before, learning more about them through how they are portrayed in Smash. I think that this would kill two birds with one stone, making something that is marketable and interest-garnering as a crossover.
I never said Smash should stop having marketable characters, I said that Smash should stop having trailers and big build-ups for individual characters. To treat its characters as drops in a bucket, not to get characters who are drops in buckets.

That aside, if the marketing machine and weirdo picks need to coexist, I like the idea of having some newcomers treated as "deluxe" compared to others, like uber-iconic characters and fandom picks get trailers; items; assist trophies; multiple stages; maybe an echo; so on - but the low key picks just have the fighter, a single stage, a few music tracks with few remixes, three or four side character spirits/trophies, and nothing more.
 
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BlueCRE

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I never said Smash should stop having marketable characters, I said that Smash should stop having trailers and big build-ups for individual characters. To treat its characters as drops in a bucket, not to get characters who are drops in buckets.

That aside, if the marketing machine and weirdo picks need to coexist, I like the idea of having some newcomers treated as "deluxe" compared to others, like uber-iconic characters and fandom picks get trailers; items; assist trophies; multiple stages; maybe an echo; so on - but the low key picks just have the fighter, a single stage, a few music tracks with few remixes, three or four side character spirits/trophies, and nothing more.
Oh no! I didn’t mean it like that. I was saying it because some of the other people had brought up marketing characters. Nothing on you, tho. Sorry for that confusion.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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Ok but what about rollback netcode tho. It's something that it would probably be never included but a man can dream I guess.

Offer alternative movesets for certain characters (mainly the 64/Melee veterans) while keeping their original movesets as default to satiate those who want them revamped.
Also now that I'm looking this, it sounds like a great idea! Reminds me to the old EX characters of KOF games that where based on previous appearences (for example EX Kyo in 98 was based on his 94 moveset, EX Yamazaki was based on Real Bout Fatal Fury, etc). It would also make it feel like if it was a bigger roster.
 

Quillion

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Interesting ideas, Quillion! I think the things you listed were pretty creative. Though, if I may ask, what function would the super specials serve? How would they add to or improve the gameplay?
Like I said, super specials will pretty much be powered-up versions of existing specials. For example, Mario would have a "Super Fireball" for Neutral Y, "Super Cape" for Side Y, "Super SJP" for Up Y, and "Super FLUDD" for Down Y. As for how they work, Super Fireball could be a single giant fireball that tacks on ~25 damage without killing, Super Cape could be a kill option for both ground and air, Super SJP could be both a better recovery and a surprise kill option, while Super FLUDD sends opponents flying with Smash-esque knockback without dealing damage. Super specials would pretty much be "base specials but better" for the most part, of course at the cost of meter.

Some ideas for exceptions to standard meter usage include Ness's Down Y being Lifeup, which lets him slowly convert meter to health, or a revamped KO Punch (Star Punch) for Mac, which completely expends all meter at once to deliver the attack, with it being more powerful the more meter he has (just like Punch-Out Wii).

-Listen to it's audience (Smash does this sometimes but I think Nick and Multiversus do it more and way better)
Meh, the problem with Smash is that its fanbase is so large there's inevitably going to be a whole bunch of conflicting voices and opinions that Sora Ltd. will never get a consistent message. Nick All-Stars and Multiversus have small audiences thus far and thus they can listen to the fans better, but even that could change with a Nick All-Stars sequel or with time for MVs.

Also now that I'm looking this, it sounds like a great idea! Reminds me to the old EX characters of KOF games that where based on previous appearences (for example EX Kyo in 98 was based on his 94 moveset, EX Yamazaki was based on Real Bout Fatal Fury, etc). It would also make it feel like if it was a bigger roster.
I know that Tekken 4 and beyond have Devil Jin to satisfy fans of Mishima Karate-based Jin in Tekken 3. But it seems that some KOF games have done the idea that I have in mind.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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Ok but what about rollback netcode tho. It's something that it would probably be never included but a man can dream I guess.
As long as Namco works on Smash, I don't want rollback netcode in Smash.

Their rollback on Tekken 7 is actually garbage that barely qualifies as rollback.

They're also infamous for having bad netcodes in general so yeah, I don't trust them with giving us a good online experience.
 
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Infinity Sorcerer

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True, but who knows, maybe they learn their errors in Tekken 8.

On the other side of the things, there are some chararacter-exclusive mechanics from Ultimate (and Smash 4) that I would like to see in the next game like Mi Min's Aerial Smash Attacks or Ryu/Ken multiple Final Smashes.
 

Quillion

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True, but who knows, maybe they learn their errors in Tekken 8.

On the other side of the things, there are some chararacter-exclusive mechanics from Ultimate (and Smash 4) that I would like to see in the next game like Mi Min's Aerial Smash Attacks or Ryu/Ken multiple Final Smashes.
I stand by my opinion that Aerial Smash Attacks should be added only if we have an option to turn off A-stick Smash. The urgency of being in the air would make aerial tilts with A-stick Smash way too difficult.

Speaking of, I really just want an option to turn off A-stick Smash in general. We already have AB Smash and C-Smash as more "pro" options for Smash attacks; there's no more reason for have A-stick Smash as a mandatory default. Even the Smash Crusade fangame has an option to turn it off.

As for multiple Final Smashes, I think Ryu's Shinkuu Hadouken and Shin Shoryuken can be made part of my potential super meter system. Same with Ken's Shippu Jinraikyaku, though I think his Up Y should instead be Shoryureppa while Shinryuken can stay as the fixed Final Smash. Maybe Ryu's fixed Final Smash could either be Metsu Hadouken or Denjin Hadouken instead.
 

Guynamednelson

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I remember reading somewhere (might have been the critique thread) that there is next to no overlap between the Tekken team and the Smash team - it's mostly Ace Combat devs.
I'm the one who pointed that out. I did some research one day clicking on every single SSBU programmers' credits on MobyGames.
 

Guynamednelson

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Jeez, that's dedication there.

Apparently, Harada said that Bamco and Sora Ltd. were free to ask the Tekken team's help if they needed, but I guess neither took the opportunity.
It kind of makes sense. Tekken 7, Soulcalibur VI, Pokken Tournament, SSBU-that'd be four fighting games for Namco's employees to juggle through. That help from the Ace Combat devs was definitely needed.
 
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Infinity Sorcerer

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I stand by my opinion that Aerial Smash Attacks should be added only if we have an option to turn off A-stick Smash. The urgency of being in the air would make aerial tilts with A-stick Smash way too difficult.

Speaking of, I really just want an option to turn off A-stick Smash in general. We already have AB Smash and C-Smash as more "pro" options for Smash attacks; there's no more reason for have A-stick Smash as a mandatory default. Even the Smash Crusade fangame has an option to turn it off.

As for multiple Final Smashes, I think Ryu's Shinkuu Hadouken and Shin Shoryuken can be made part of my potential super meter system. Same with Ken's Shippu Jinraikyaku, though I think his Up Y should instead be Shoryureppa while Shinryuken can stay as the fixed Final Smash. Maybe Ryu's fixed Final Smash could either be Metsu Hadouken or Denjin Hadouken instead.
I have mixed feelings for the super meter, I would love it (there is a reason why I always play with the FS Meter on) but at the same time I feel not every character fits with this idea, I mean sure you can either made a "big special move" like, idk, Link lauching a lot of arrows in a row or something like that or just made something new (even if personally usually those things looks out of place). In relation Ryu and Ken I guess in this idea you can have Shinkuu Hadouken and Shinku Tatsumaki has the regular supers and Metsu Shoryuken has the Final Smash with Ken using Guren Enjinkyaku and Shoryureppa with Shinryuken has the FS.
 

GothicSlenderman

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Meh, the problem with Smash is that its fanbase is so large there's inevitably going to be a whole bunch of conflicting voices and opinions that Sora Ltd. will never get a consistent message. Nick All-Stars and Multiversus have small audiences thus far and thus they can listen to the fans better, but even that could change with a Nick All-Stars sequel or with time for MVs.
True. However; there is still the problem with Nintendo themselves and how they treat the tournament scene, go after YouTube videos and content creators for seemingly no reason and shut down entire mods. If we can pass this hurtle then I think things will be 100X better
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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If I remind correctly tournaments with money prizes are looked bad in Japan (being also the reason why most tournaments from fighting games are in western countries), and Nintendo prioritize their repution in their own country. Of course this doesn't mean that I want that they mantain the same mentality its just the reason that I remind for their way to act.
 

Quillion

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I have mixed feelings for the super meter, I would love it (there is a reason why I always play with the FS Meter on) but at the same time I feel not every character fits with this idea, I mean sure you can either made a "big special move" like, idk, Link lauching a lot of arrows in a row or something like that or just made something new (even if personally usually those things looks out of place). In relation Ryu and Ken I guess in this idea you can have Shinkuu Hadouken and Shinku Tatsumaki has the regular supers and Metsu Shoryuken has the Final Smash with Ken using Guren Enjinkyaku and Shoryureppa with Shinryuken has the FS.
What character wouldn't fit with a super meter? I personally think something simple for a "Super Bow" for Link could just be a Bomb Arrow. Olimar could be tricky, but a good "Super Pikmin Throw" for him would just be to swarm all (3 of) his Pikmin on the target at once. Or maybe he could just spontaneously spawn a whole bunch of Pikmin (maybe just five) of his current type which then swarm the target.

True. However; there is still the problem with Nintendo themselves and how they treat the tournament scene, go after YouTube videos and content creators for seemingly no reason and shut down entire mods. If we can pass this hurtle then I think things will be 100X better
Honestly, I think that most companies (not just Nintendo or even video game companies) that do that takedown thing with a faulty AI rather than people. The only thing that will make content creators actually safe is a major revamp or takedown of the modern (western) copyright system.

As for the tournament scene, they're so attached to Melee like a male anglerfish to a female that I'm kinda leery of them being part of Nintendo or Sora's actual staff. Nothing against Melee itself, but I'm not so sure about later Smash games closely imitating Melee rather than going its own path with the best of its elements as well as other games'. It would be like Nintendo hiring Super Metroid fans just to have future Metroid games revert to Super Metroid's floaty jumping and slippery running just because they want the advanced techniques in Super back.

If I remind correctly tournaments with money prizes are looked bad in Japan (being also the reason why most tournaments from fighting games are in western countries), and Nintendo prioritize their repution in their own country. Of course this doesn't mean that I want that they mantain the same mentality its just the reason that I remind for their way to act.
I assume that's an extension of Japan's near-total ban on gambling. Apparently, Pachinko is the closest thing you can get there because of loopholes in how it works.
 

FazDude

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I'm going to preface this by saying that I don't know how to "fix" Smash in a way that would keep everybody satisfied. By "everybody", I don't just mean the players (which are a divisive group in of themselves), I also mean Nintendo, the third parties which collaborate with them to make Smash, and the dreaded shareholders. Simply put, you can't please everybody. As such, I'm not going to aim to "fix" Smash more than I am going to discuss how I would make Smash appeal more to me personally (although I'll also be addressing things I think would benefit the community at large).
  • I'm going to start by saying that I don't think the core gameplay of Smash needs any serious retooling or expanding upon. Sure, it could be improved to better suit players (in an ideal world, there would be a game speed option to allow more fast-paced matches like those found in Melee), but I don't think we need things like aerial smash attacks or universal Shield Bs. Smash owes at least some of its success to its simplicity, and adding more buttons to the fray hampers that. I'm not saying we can't have wavedashing or L-cancelling or things like that - I'm just saying that we don't need more dedicated attack buttons or things of the like.
    • That said, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of a super meter or something along those lines.
  • I think we could do with "updating" some of the older fighters and bringing them up to modern standards. Now, this is a slippery slope. Some fan reworks I've seen solely focus on incorporating references just to have them, and that just won't do. Fighters should strive to incorporate their source material to some degree, but giving Mario access to every power-up under the sun or giving characters extremely complex mechanics just to bring them closer to their source isn't the way to go about it. (Not trying to diss things like Inkling's ink mechanic or Arsene - Those are fine. I'm talking about things like Kazuya's plethora of complex attacks or even Terry having a Back Special).
    • On that note, I actually like Wario Wario Wario's idea of having extra fanservice in the form of Custom Moves - Players who enjoy fighters' current kits can still enjoy them, while those who want more references get to have them (and more than they would have gotten if fighters were flatout reworked).
  • Now, on the topic of revealing fighters... I'm not sure how I'd go about retooling this aspect of Smash in a way that wouldn't annoy Smash players or Nintendo's corporate. On one hand, I understand where Wario Cubed is coming from regarding anxiety/room for more experimental characters/etc., but I don't think I like the idea of "everybody's just in three trailers". If it were up to me, it'd be handled more like Brawl's Dojo, with fighters being revealed every other week or something along those lines. Again, not really sure what I'd do here, but Wario Cubed's approach holds promise. (I'd miss the CGI trailers, though.)
  • On the topic of fighters, I think we could do with some more obscure/weird/curveball picks. Probably not to the same extent as something like NASB or Multiversus (gotta placate Nintendo's income somehow), but we could have a few more than we do.
  • Nintendo needs to stop shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to the community. Shutting down mods/tournaments does nothing to improve their reputation. At that point, though, it's less about fixing Smash than it is fixing Nintendo.
  • Add more single-player content. Sure, I don't hate World of Light or anything, but it's not enough. Adding more single-player stuff doesn't necessarily equal Subspace 2 or anything, but we could do with some more modes. (I will defend Smash Tour until the day I die.)
  • Improve the online. Seriously.
  • Finally, I would say that Smash could operate really well with a "free content update" system, but Nintendo fans HATE that sort of thing (and to be fair, Nintendo does it really poorly), so it'd have to be done really well in order to stop mass rioting.
Sorry for putting you through all that word vomit, but hopefully I got my main points across.
 

Quillion

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Messages
5,705
I'm going to start by saying that I don't think the core gameplay of Smash needs any serious retooling or expanding upon. Sure, it could be improved to better suit players (in an ideal world, there would be a game speed option to allow more fast-paced matches like those found in Melee), but I don't think we need things like aerial smash attacks or universal Shield Bs. Smash owes at least some of its success to its simplicity, and adding more buttons to the fray hampers that. I'm not saying we can't have wavedashing or L-cancelling or things like that - I'm just saying that we don't need more dedicated attack buttons or things of the like.
Pokémon owes at least some of its success to its simplicity, yet you don't exactly hear the end of fans (at least before Arceus) that the series needs "real change" to its gameplay instead of just Megas, Z-Moves, and Dmaxing. Personally, I think a super meter mechanic alone would be akin to Z-moves, albeit kept with the series for the future rather than scrapped in the next game. Even Kirby is loved for its simplicity and Star Allies was bashed for feeling too much like the previous games.

I think we could do with "updating" some of the older fighters and bringing them up to modern standards. Now, this is a slippery slope. Some fan reworks I've seen solely focus on incorporating references just to have them, and that just won't do. Fighters should strive to incorporate their source material to some degree, but giving Mario access to every power-up under the sun or giving characters extremely complex mechanics just to bring them closer to their source isn't the way to go about it. (Not trying to diss things like Inkling's ink mechanic or Arsene - Those are fine. I'm talking about things like Kazuya's plethora of complex attacks or even Terry having a Back Special).
  • On that note, I actually like Wario Wario Wario's idea of having extra fanservice in the form of Custom Moves - Players who enjoy fighters' current kits can still enjoy them, while those who want more references get to have them (and more than they would have gotten if fighters were flatout reworked).
I'd personally go in the opposite direction and simplify the newer characters down to classic 64/Melee newcomer standards. The existence of the overcomplex mechanics of the newer characters seems rather hypocritical given that one of Smash's goals is to be accessible and intuitive. I find a lot of the newer fighter frustrating to pick up because of this, whereas I happily leaped from character to character during the 64-Brawl years for casual play.

Now, on the topic of revealing fighters... I'm not sure how I'd go about retooling this aspect of Smash in a way that wouldn't annoy Smash players or Nintendo's corporate. On one hand, I understand where Wario Cubed is coming from regarding anxiety/room for more experimental characters/etc., but I don't think I like the idea of "everybody's just in three trailers". If it were up to me, it'd be handled more like Brawl's Dojo, with fighters being revealed every other week or something along those lines. Again, not really sure what I'd do here, but Wario Cubed's approach holds promise. (I'd miss the CGI trailers, though.)
On the topic of fighters, I think we could do with some more obscure/weird/curveball picks. Probably not to the same extent as something like NASB or Multiversus (gotta placate Nintendo's income somehow), but we could have a few more than we do.
I think we need obscure picks with the big CGI reveals. Smash needs to turn those C-List stars into A-Listers with those trailers.

I suppose the only problem with them is that CGI reveals would be rather overdone for more simplistic 64/Melee-style characters, but I don't really mind that issue.

Add more single-player content. Sure, I don't hate World of Light or anything, but it's not enough. Adding more single-player stuff doesn't necessarily equal Subspace 2 or anything, but we could do with some more modes. (I will defend Smash Tour until the day I die.)
I don't think we need another iteration of a Subspace-style mode given how much development that took, but I don't want another single-player mode to feel as unfinished as Melee's Adventure. We need a compromise of Subspace and Melee Adventure somehow, but I just don't know what.

Finally, I would say that Smash could operate really well with a "free content update" system, but Nintendo fans HATE that sort of thing (and to be fair, Nintendo does it really poorly), so it'd have to be done really well in order to stop mass rioting.
Game-as-a-service just doesn't work at all for the vast majority of games. At least Epic is committed to never having to make a sequel for Fortnite, but then we have ActiBlizz who wants to sell a glorified update as a sequel to Overwatch.

And to be honest, even the "ideal" scenario of the next Smash staying where it is 'til the end of time is awful, since it would exacerbate Smash's borderline stagnation with its core gameplay.
 

FazDude

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Pokémon owes at least some of its success to its simplicity, yet you don't exactly hear the end of fans (at least before Arceus) that the series needs "real change" to its gameplay instead of just Megas, Z-Moves, and Dmaxing. Personally, I think a super meter mechanic alone would be akin to Z-moves, albeit kept with the series for the future rather than scrapped in the next game. Even Kirby is loved for its simplicity and Star Allies was bashed for feeling too much like the previous games.
Fair point - Like I said, I'd be fine with super meters, but I don't think it should extend too far beyond that point.

I'd personally go in the opposite direction and simplify the newer characters down to classic 64/Melee newcomer standards. The existence of the overcomplex mechanics of the newer characters seems rather hypocritical given that one of Smash's goals is to be accessible and intuitive. I find a lot of the newer fighter frustrating to pick up because of this, whereas I happily leaped from character to character during the 64-Brawl years for casual play.
I agree to an extent - I do feel like characters could be toned down a bit (such as the aforementioned Kazuya), but less intrusive things like Inkling's ink can stay. Having to press shield B to restore your resources every so often isn't nearly as tedious as memorizing a bunch of input commands.
I think we need obscure picks with the big CGI reveals. Smash needs to turn those C-List stars into A-Listers with those trailers.

I suppose the only problem with them is that CGI reveals would be rather overdone for more simplistic 64/Melee-style characters, but I don't really mind that issue.
To be fair, I only suggested that CGI reveals would be axed because that's what I got out of Wario Cubed's idea. In a perfect world, we'd get CGI trailers for everyone - They just wouldn't have as much build-up.

I don't think we need another iteration of a Subspace-style mode given how much development that took, but I don't want another single-player mode to feel as unfinished as Melee's Adventure. We need a compromise of Subspace and Melee Adventure somehow, but I just don't know what.
Heck, I don't think we should stop at an Adventure/story mode - Give people more content they can play in quick bursts - Things like the Target Tests and Trophy Rush from Smash 4.

Game-as-a-service just doesn't work at all for the vast majority of games. At least Epic is committed to never having to make a sequel for Fortnite, but then we have ActiBlizz who wants to sell a glorified update as a sequel to Overwatch.
Yeah, this is fair. Like I said, it'd have to be done in a much less lazy and thoughtful way than Overwatch 2 or something, but people are excited for Multiversus despite it adopting a similar idea to what I had in mind, so I don't see why it couldn't work for Smash.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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I'm going to preface this by saying that I don't know how to "fix" Smash in a way that would keep everybody satisfied. By "everybody", I don't just mean the players (which are a divisive group in of themselves), I also mean Nintendo, the third parties which collaborate with them to make Smash, and the dreaded shareholders. Simply put, you can't please everybody. As such, I'm not going to aim to "fix" Smash more than I am going to discuss how I would make Smash appeal more to me personally (although I'll also be addressing things I think would benefit the community at large).
  • I'm going to start by saying that I don't think the core gameplay of Smash needs any serious retooling or expanding upon. Sure, it could be improved to better suit players (in an ideal world, there would be a game speed option to allow more fast-paced matches like those found in Melee), but I don't think we need things like aerial smash attacks or universal Shield Bs. Smash owes at least some of its success to its simplicity, and adding more buttons to the fray hampers that. I'm not saying we can't have wavedashing or L-cancelling or things like that - I'm just saying that we don't need more dedicated attack buttons or things of the like.
    • That said, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of a super meter or something along those lines.
  • I think we could do with "updating" some of the older fighters and bringing them up to modern standards. Now, this is a slippery slope. Some fan reworks I've seen solely focus on incorporating references just to have them, and that just won't do. Fighters should strive to incorporate their source material to some degree, but giving Mario access to every power-up under the sun or giving characters extremely complex mechanics just to bring them closer to their source isn't the way to go about it. (Not trying to diss things like Inkling's ink mechanic or Arsene - Those are fine. I'm talking about things like Kazuya's plethora of complex attacks or even Terry having a Back Special).
    • On that note, I actually like Wario Wario Wario's idea of having extra fanservice in the form of Custom Moves - Players who enjoy fighters' current kits can still enjoy them, while those who want more references get to have them (and more than they would have gotten if fighters were flatout reworked).
  • Now, on the topic of revealing fighters... I'm not sure how I'd go about retooling this aspect of Smash in a way that wouldn't annoy Smash players or Nintendo's corporate. On one hand, I understand where Wario Cubed is coming from regarding anxiety/room for more experimental characters/etc., but I don't think I like the idea of "everybody's just in three trailers". If it were up to me, it'd be handled more like Brawl's Dojo, with fighters being revealed every other week or something along those lines. Again, not really sure what I'd do here, but Wario Cubed's approach holds promise. (I'd miss the CGI trailers, though.)
  • On the topic of fighters, I think we could do with some more obscure/weird/curveball picks. Probably not to the same extent as something like NASB or Multiversus (gotta placate Nintendo's income somehow), but we could have a few more than we do.
  • Nintendo needs to stop shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to the community. Shutting down mods/tournaments does nothing to improve their reputation. At that point, though, it's less about fixing Smash than it is fixing Nintendo.
  • Add more single-player content. Sure, I don't hate World of Light or anything, but it's not enough. Adding more single-player stuff doesn't necessarily equal Subspace 2 or anything, but we could do with some more modes. (I will defend Smash Tour until the day I die.)
  • Improve the online. Seriously.
  • Finally, I would say that Smash could operate really well with a "free content update" system, but Nintendo fans HATE that sort of thing (and to be fair, Nintendo does it really poorly), so it'd have to be done really well in order to stop mass rioting.
Sorry for putting you through all that word vomit, but hopefully I got my main points across.
  • Maybe it's my own bias talking but I like Kazuya and Terry's moveset, I think the line between the fidelity to the source game and the adaptation to the game it's different in each character, characters from Fighting Games have it easier since you can translate almost all their moves in Smash without feeling weird (complex it's other thing). But trying to make characters like Mario, Little Mac or even the Mii's (referring to the people who wants more moves taken from Wii Sports) it's either innecesary or just overthinking the things.
  • My own opinion about how the characters would be more akin to what other FG do, particulary with the DLCs, I think it would be better announce all (or at least half) of the DLCs instead of making it separate, especially for evitate those "NooOoooOO0000 the first character announced is X guy but I wanted Y guy, this DLC is trash why I buy the complete Fighter Pass 🤢 ".
    • I honeslty don't have too much obscure picks that I would be interesed, maybe Takamaru, Isaac (idk how obscure you can consider Isaac is) and a Type-Moon rep (obscure for the Nintendo playbase at least). I don't mind have one or two "weird" picks but I'm more in the casual side of the things that wants more popular guys like the Slayer and Sol.
  • Totally agree with Single Player content, I don't find a story mode necessary but more options to play when you are alone are welcome.
  • I honeslty don't finished to understand what are you talking about free content updates, I guess you are talking about things like Stage Creator and Home Run Contest in Ultimate that where added post-release?, if so I agree, I feel that Ultimate had more opportunities to bring some extra modes (why they didn't added a Boss Rush?, oh wait they did, in Sephiroth's arcade mode 🗿)
 
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FazDude

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  • I honeslty don't finished to understand what are you talking about free content updates, I guess you are talking about things like Stage Creator and Home Run Contest in Ultimate that where added post-release?, if so I agree, I feel that Ultimate had more opportunities to bring some extra modes (why they didn't added a Boss Rush?, oh wait they did, in Sephiroth's arcade mode 🗿)
Not exactly - It's more like how Garfield and Shredder (as well as their stages) were added to NASB as free post-launch content (or the aforementioned Multiversus).
 

Guynamednelson

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that I would be interesed, maybe Takamaru, Isaac (idk how obscure you can consider Isaac is) and a Type-Moon rep (obscure for the Nintendo playbase at least). I don't mind have one or two "weird" picks but I'm more in the casual side of the things that wants more popular guys like the Slayer and Sol
On the other hand, Sakurai said that characters shouldn't just be recognizable in Terry's trailer...then none of the remaining DLC fighters really showed that was true. Not eventhe first-parties.
 
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Infinity Sorcerer

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On the other hand, Sakurai said that characters should be fun to play, not just recognizable in Terry's trailer...then none of the remaining DLC fighters really showed that was true. Not eventhe first-parties.
I'm not saying I don't like obscure characters, it's just that I aren't interesed in most of the ones that I know (now that I think it more maybe there are more characters that the ones that I mentioned earlier, Saki would be cool for example) but still, it's just personal opinion and not what I think it should be fixed.
 

Quillion

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Messages
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FazDude FazDude : I kinda think Inkling's ink mechanic feels tacked-on just to make them feel like they do in Splatoon, but that's just me.

A Brawl-style Target Test would be realistic, as would Spirit Rush and Coin Launcher.

G Guynamednelson and Infinity Sorcerer Infinity Sorcerer : I feel like DLC characters alone should be recognizable first and foremost, but base game characters should be simply fun (and simple and intuitive) to play.
 

Infinity Sorcerer

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G Guynamednelson and Infinity Sorcerer Infinity Sorcerer Infinity Sorcerer Infinity Sorcerer : I feel like DLC characters alone should be recognizable first and foremost, but base game characters should be simply fun (and simple and intuitive) to play.
I completely agree with that, not because I think those characters aren't worthy has DLCs but because other people doesn't consider them worthy has DLCs, I will defend both Byleth and Pyra/Mythra inclusion with cape and sword but I know that they both would be 100% more well received if they where in the base game (and they even aren't obscure picks!, How people would react if you throw them someone like, who knows, Hayate from Savage Reign has a DLC?)
 

Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
-Characters interact with each through unique dialouge.
I feel the ideal place for character interactions in Smash is victory animations - given just how many of these characters are silent or seperated by a language barrier, it'd be more jarring than anything to hear Wario shout "take that blockhead!" to Steve specifically or Sonic single out K. Rool with "See ya' later, alligator!" when not only do Steve and K. Rool not have a response, but nor do most of the cast. The Smash team have already shown their chops with silent pantomime on the other hand
 
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