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Finishing moves and setups: aka HOW TO KILL WITH SONIC?! [Updated: 8/30]

R4ZE

Smash Ace
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simply stated... if you watch the "lightspeed" video... remember how it divided the character into 2 boxes? one being the "back" of that character, and the othe rbeing the "front"... i beleive that is wha he means. by face and back..

just as a quick side question: I know HA has a lot less range when sonic is not facing the opponent, but has anyone done testing with that?
 

ShadowLink84

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D throw to Dair. DEATH

on a serious note good job for adding about how the second hit of the spindash can knock them out of the Uair.
One other thing I've noticed though is that sometimes the first hit fails to pop them up even though I am holding forward.
 

da K.I.D.

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when it comes to gimping, i find that when my opponent has good DI forward smash is the only move that sends them low enough for me to even have an edgeguard oppurtunity. they can even get over me when i use the down throw and down smash, and as such a lot of my kills arent coming until very high damages.

discuss
 

Tenki

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blah, update!

revised and added a bunch of star KO combos, including the ASC>u-air combos (aka the kill-metaknight-at-65%-combo!), ASD version, and U-throw combos.

And yes, they ARE consecutive-hit-training-recognized combos (...that you can airdodge out of.)

but anyway, yes, they're awesome.

Also added SonicOrochi's ASC>Homing Attack combo and Anthinus' dash attack>spring>aerial setup.

..have fun with that.
 

AgentAO

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Is there a compilation video of all of these to demonstrate how to pull them off? Since I have a problem getting a few of these, and visual aid would be nice.

If not, any chance of someone making said video?
 

Tenshi-kun

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This is a great thread dude. A great response to people constantly saying "HOW DO U KEEL W SAWNIKS? :D
 

Tenki

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So, I've been working on low-altitude gimping/movestrings. Moves or gimps to kill people who are trying to recover by dropping low.

It was one of the harder things for me to find or do at first, since it seemed to be limited to spring gimps.

Simple basics that most people should know:
- Run off edge (optional fastfall) > B-air toward level (stage spike).
Especially nice against tether grabbers like Ice Climbers, ZSS, TL, Olimar, Ivysaur... etc. Predict their tether length and whack them with a B-air when they tether and BAM. Much more lethal than the spring gimp. Also good if you notice that your opponent has a pattern of doing a drop down+U-air or some other repeated ledge dj aerial, and you can feel his timing.



These are more like 'pending' moves, or just interesting things to experiment with:
- Drop off the ledge, place yourself almost horizontally adjacent to your enemy while moving yourself under the ledge, U-air.

Arghh I forgot whose video I saw this in, but it was a Sonic vs Fox and he pulled off this crazy kill where he dropped next to a Fox charging his up-B and U-aired him into a stage spike.

And then I pulled it off, accidentally, and without thinking, against a guy named samboner. It's pretty hard to place, but it's worth noting the option.

- One interesting move that I've been landing at an unknown percent is:
D-air (late hit) > [] reverse spring+B-air
Airdodgeable, and I think they can attack too, but it can catch some people.

And a more interesting one that I got to mess around with earlier today:
- F-air gimping.

Partly inspired by Anthinus, who mentioned he used it to gimp and made me think of going back to 'basics', and LuCky's smashville kill vs Danimals where he did an F-air and sent Marth flying under the level using its backward hit.

So it's a pretty easy move to DI out of, but as such, F-air can create different situations when below the ledge:
1) No DI/away DI: Opponent is sent flying further away from the level. Just like training mode.
2) DI toward you, but not fast enough to escape: Opponent gets sent flying backwards and toward the level. If you're low enough, this can become a stage spike or a total gimp by sending the guy flying under the level. If you're too high, you save your opponent.
3) DI toward you + Escape the F-air: Here's where it gets interesting. Your opponent should still be floating toward the stage, and maybe even double jumping to try to get a better placement for his up-B. If you just dropped from the edge/ledge, you can actually catch him with a double jump (toward the level), then a footstool, with optional spring. Pro kill.
4) "Tip" hitting the end of the F-air: Opponent flies forward, but the trajectory can be affected by upwards or downwards DI. It's probably upwards, but depending on %, this can be a good thing for your opponent.
5) Airdodge: Opponent can gimp himself, so this is actually not a very likely scenario unless your opponent can renew his recovery or has multiple jumps to make up for it.
6) Retaliatory attack: character-specific, but you may get stage spiked, normal spiked, footstooled, or just knocked away. Like airdodging, this can also cause your opponent to gimp himself, so at a low height, not very likely.
 

MarKO X

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HEY!

This post is ultimate. I want it stickied for all future Sonic mains, cause the stuff here WORKS.

You wanna be a really good pro Sonic player? You probably should memorize this stuff.
 

Tenki

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I have new information to put up for Sonic's kill moves.

But first, is DI (as in like, holding a direction) universal for all characters, regardless of weight?

[edit]

Yes, it seems to be so!
 

Tenki

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UPDATE! KILL %'s WITH DI! We're screwed!

Basic kill move/information
Unless otherwise stated, from the center of Final Destination, with no stale-move effect, no attack-charging:

Damage is first given without DI, and with DI, if applicable.
* means that opposite DI has no effect.

Currently incorrect/incomplete: DI information will need a remake- will change this in a future update

Fsmash : 110% [130% with sideways DI]
Dsmash (first hit): 120% [140% with sideways DI]
Usmash (last hit): 170% [180% with down DI]
U-tilt : 160% [170% with down DI]
B-air(sweet spot) at 125% [150% with sideways DI]
U-air from full hop: 170% [180% with down DI]
U-air from double jump: 150% [160% with down DI]
U-air from top of level (double jump + spring): 90% [100% with down DI]
U-throw (FD height): 190-200%*


From the edge of Final Destination:
D-air sweetspot(Aerial): 170% [180% with sideways DI]
B-throw: 160-170% [185% with sideways DI]
F-air (Final hit/"head" sweet spot): 170% (sweetspot) [200% with sideways DI]
N-air: 140% (first hit) [150% with sideways DI]
Homing Attack (person standing on edge): 170-180% [185% with sideways DI]


Note: if you hit the person with the initial hop into u-smash, it adds alot of extra knockback so that the opponent can get launched out of the u-smash at weird angles. For damage or to do the u-smash kill, hyphen smash or time it so you avoid the first hit.
Alright, this was the original. Behold, the newly improved/updated killing% list with correct DI directions and their effect!!

Basic kill move/information
Unless otherwise stated, from the center of Final Destination, with no stale-move effect, no attack-charging:

Damage is first given without DI, and with best possible DI.


Fsmash : 110% [135% with down-towards DI]
Dsmash (first hit): 120% [145% with down-towards DI]
Usmash (last hit): 170% [200% with sideways DI]
U-tilt (full triple hit): 155% [190% with down-away DI] (for star KO. It can kill off the sides at lower %'s if you're closer to the edges)
B-air: 125% (sweet spot) [155% with up-towards DI] (can star KO lower if U-DI'd in midair)
U-throw (FD height): 195% [215% with down+towards DI]

U-airs are all double hits (first+second)
U-air from full hop: 170% [190% with down+away DI]
U-air from double jump: 150% [170% with down+away DI]
U-air from top of level (double jump + spring): 90% [110% with down+away DI]
Forward ASC [ground level]: 170% [215% with down+away DI]
Further modifiers for vertical kills/star KO's: For each "Jump" worth of height, subtract 20% from the kill%, similar to the U-air info.


From the edge of Final Destination:
B-air sourspot: 140% [190% with up+towards DI]
D-air sweetspot(Aerial): 140% [210% with up+towards DI]
B-throw: 165% [215% with up+towards DI]
F-air (Final hit/"head" sweet spot): 125% (sweetspot) [200% with up+towards DI]
N-air: 130% (sweetspot vs aerial opponent) [180% with up+towards DI]
Homing Attack (person standing on edge): 170-180% [215% with up+towards DI]


Note: if you hit the person with the initial hop into u-smash, it adds alot of extra knockback so that the opponent can get launched out of the u-smash at weird angles. For damage or to do the u-smash kill, hyphen smash or time it so you avoid the first hit.
I retested all of the previous kill %'s (rounded lol) with CPU on Control and just held a direction for DI with a second controller. On the upside, N-air, D-air, and F-air have enough momentum to cause someone who either doesn't hold toward the stage or airdodges through the end of his hitstun to die.

But... alot of the correct-DI information makes me sad.



EDIT 8/30
MINOR UPDATE
lol I wrote the F-smash/D-smash DI as down+towards. I meant up+towards. :laugh:
 

TwinkleToes

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Hm. Well, I guess this gives more credibility to using b-air as a damage builder. I always use d/f smash as my killers anyways.
 

da K.I.D.

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i have a good kill that is seemingly easier to pull off and more effective than the f air to footstool combo you have up,

you can set this up with a down throw near the edge
a good kill is to, run off the edge, f air, and intentionally not hit with the last hit, than when they either double jump or up b, double jump back air them. it stage spikes hard and nobody ever sees it coming so they never wall tech it. this works well on people the use theirup b to recover from the stage at 65-90 degree angles, such as mario, marth, wolf, D3 in certain circumstances. link, tink, and others
 

Chis

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Fsmash : 110% [135% with up-towards DI]
Dsmash (first hit): 120% [145% with up-towards DI]
Usmash (last hit): 170% [200% with sideways DI]
U-tilt (full triple hit): 155% [190% with down-away DI] (for star KO. It can kill off the sides at lower %'s if you're closer to the edges)
B-air: 125% (sweet spot) [155% with up-towards DI] (can star KO lower if U-DI'd in midair)
U-throw (FD height): 195% [215% with down+towards DI]
This involves smash DI right Tenki?

Oh ****, I posted in the wrong thead by mistake! Don't report me :O
 

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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I apologise if this has been posted but...

For a while, I've been trying to edgeguard people with Sonic when they're trying to recover horizontally by doing a ground cancelled spin jump (sorry the name has completely gone from me...the one where you use Down + B and then tap up/left/right on the C Stick to do an arced spin jump) and then use Dair to hit them at the desired position. Because they're trying to recover horizontally, the majority of the the time, this sends them completely horiztonally back (accidental DI) and slightly down from their hitstun. I can then use 2nd jump and Up + B to get back up onto the stage.

I never ever spinshot this. This is so I keep my 2nd jump so I can
a) recover better
and b) jump out the way of anything potentially nasty

If I miss, I can jump back up and attempt to Bair them if they're close. This one guy I was fighting, I missed him with the Dair and instead he grabbed the ledge. I jumped back up and Baired him :chuckle:

Sorry if I don't make a right lot of sense ><
 

Tenki

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This involves smash DI right Tenki?

Oh ****, I posted in the wrong thead by mistake! Don't report me :O
no lol

Smash DI only changes your placement as soon as you get hit, AFAIK. Just normal trajectory-changing DI.

I apologise if this has been posted but...

For a while, I've been trying to edgeguard people with Sonic when they're trying to recover horizontally by doing a ground cancelled spin jump (sorry the name has completely gone from me...the one where you use Down + B and then tap up/left/right on the C Stick to do an arced spin jump) and then use Dair to hit them at the desired position. Because they're trying to recover horizontally, the majority of the the time, this sends them completely horiztonally back (accidental DI) and slightly down from their hitstun. I can then use 2nd jump and Up + B to get back up onto the stage.

I never ever spinshot this. This is so I keep my 2nd jump so I can
a) recover better
and b) jump out the way of anything potentially nasty

If I miss, I can jump back up and attempt to Bair them if they're close. This one guy I was fighting, I missed him with the Dair and instead he grabbed the ledge. I jumped back up and Baired him :chuckle:

Sorry if I don't make a right lot of sense ><
Jump from a spindash roll / grounded spin charge = spindash jump (SDJ)

yeah, I do it to get off-stage, too.

I also saw a video somewhere, I forgot, maybe Anthinus made it, in a D-air usage video - and they do it too. It's not a bad idea, considering you move faster in the air and get more height from it.

So like, I totally made this thread when I was new to the game, so I tested these things on computers/no DI. However, it's still useful for getting an idea for when your attacks will flow into each other.

I probably won't be adding anything more 'setup' wise, and I'm considering shortening/taking a bunch of these out.
 

Camalange

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I don't think it ever was guys... >_>

:093:
 
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