"FD polarizes match-ups too much to be a starter"

[~ Gheb ~]

It's an often made claim that FD polarizes match-ups a lot and therefore should not be considered a starter or "less neutral" than PS2 or CS.

I'd like to challenge that claim.

Neither results nor theorycraft convincingly back this claim up and I am very sure that none of people who make the claim are objectively able to prove it. [Using stage ban data from events like MLG as evidence to back this claim up is faulty because it's a subjective choice, based on a rule that's superfluous and arbitrary anyway].
For the sake of simplicity I'm going to use the word "evidence" henceforth. It is to be understood synonymous to "empirical evidence".


Statistically, in high level play the following things regarding FD are to be noticed:

• MK does only worse against Falco and Diddy on FD than on any other stage. There is no evidence that proves that MK does worse vs ICs on FD than on BF. Plenty of evidence exists that MK doesn't do worse vs any other top- or high-tier character on FD.
  
• No evidence exists that ICs do better on FD in any match-up than on BF. It's arguable whether Diddy, ROB and Falco may even do better on FD than on BF against ICs. More stocks have been lost to ICs because of the BF platform than because of FD's flat ground.
  
• The only character Diddy Kong evidently does better against on FD than on any other stage is MK. In every other match-up he's either doing about equal as on the other stages or it can not be confirmed whether he actually does better or not.
  
• Falco does better against MK and possibly against ICs on FD but only MK is "confirmed".
  
• Snake, Olimar, Pikachu and Marth are all doing the same on FD as on any other "neutral" stage in every commonly played match-up. No evidence exists that any of these characters gets a noticeable benefit compared to other stages.
  
• DDD does do better against some characters on FD than on other stages because of his CG but none of the commonly used characters he can use the CG against actually does worse other than Wario and Lucario. Snake, Diddy and Marth do neither better nor worse on FD than on other stages. Although even legitimate theorycrafting suggests it, no evidence exists that "inferior" characters do worse on FD than on BF, SV, Yoshi's or Lylat.

The only instances where FD evidently changes a match-up compared to all the other "neutral" stages are: MK vs Falco, MK vs Diddy, DDD vs Wario; None of these match-ups are "polarized" because of the stage. The divergencies between FD and the "other neutrals" are neither more extreme nor more numerous than the divergencies between any other "neutral" stage compared with each it other.

Discuss.

Edit: Grim Tuesday, do not post in this thread.

 

[infiniteV115]

[Using stage ban data from events like MLG as evidence to back this claim up is faulty because it's a subjective choice, based on a rule that's superfluous and arbitrary anyway].

Subjective choice? What do you mean?

And as for the bolded part, are you talking about the stage ban rule, or the starter/CP divide?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Subjective choice? What do you mean?

The choice which stage you ban is subjective and often not what the "ideal choice" for a match-up would be.

And as for the bolded part, are you talking about the stage ban rule, or the starter/CP divide?

Both are arbitrary and useless in my book, but I was talking about the former.

 

[EthereaL]

I think that the statement "although valid theory says that lower tiers do better, no evidence..." does not support your argument.

If a player doesn't take advantage of the stage's benefits, that doesn't mean those benefits aren't there. Conversely, the benefits could simply be far smaller than initially thought.

That said, among high-tier characters especially, I don't believe FD makes much of a difference.

Lack of platform mobility hurts a few characters, though.

 

[Player-1]

Statistically this is all true? Show me the carfax statistics.

 

[Steam]

The choice which stage you ban is subjective and often not what the "ideal choice" for a match-up would be.

so it's up to you to decide what the ideal choice of stage for each matchup is and not the players that actually play it? how modest of you.

if there's anything that downplays the MLG data it's the fact that MK is so common and FD is generally considered to be his worst stage, so it sees a lot of bans from MK users.

regardless... FD being the most banned stage should show how polar it was in the current metagame.

 

[fkacyan]

so it's up to you to decide what the ideal choice of stage for each matchup is and not the players that actually play it? how modest of you.

if there's anything that downplays the MLG data it's the fact that MK is so common and FD is generally considered to be his worst stage, so it sees a lot of bans from MK users.

regardless... FD being the most banned stage should show how polar it was in the current metagame.

This makes the assumption that players are making stage decisions solely on character matchups and not things such as their level of comfort and experience on the stage as well as their own perceptions of the matchup and their playstyle.

It's certainly polar, if only because a lot of people have some extremely incorrect views about what platforms do and do not do to partiucalr characters.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

if there's anything that downplays the MLG data it's the fact that MK is so common and FD is generally considered to be his worst stage, so it sees a lot of bans from MK users.

regardless... FD being the most banned stage should show how polar it was in the current metagame.

wtf, you basically just refuted your own point before you even made it!

Are you not saying that FD only gets a lot of bans because MK is everywhere, and since he gets to ban a stage anyway, he may as well ban the one that is kindabadbutnotrly for him?

Then you immediately follow it by saying it's a POLAR stage because it got banned a lot, by ONE character?

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just not reading this right...

 

[ぱみゅ]

So there's that "too much" part again....

Spoiler

Yet another reason why FLSS is superior

 

[DMG]

I'd like to say that Diddy clearly does better vs Wario on FD than on other stages because platforms and other **** tends to either:

1. Put Diddy in worse spots than Wario for trying to land

2. Make it easier for Wario to run around safely

Out of starters, that is clearly his best starter vs Wario. Out of CP's, even more clear that's his stage lol.

Although I do somewhat agree about FD, in that a lot of advantages or "polarization" is actually more RPS than people think. How many characters "like" FD? Snake Diddy Olimar Falco IC's Dedede? Maybe a few more based on the MU at hand sure. Besides arguably IC's though, there's no 1 character that wrecks the rest of the characters that "like" FD. Going Diddy on FD doesn't guarantee that you won't face Falco who might beat you on that stage, or then for Falco who probably loses to IC's on that stage, who (again I say arguably IC's because you could debate whether they actually have a losing MU on FD with MK gone) might lose to Snake here, who could have trouble with Olimar, etc. That kind of circle is MUCH better than MK ****** CP's lol.

 

[Akaku94]

My problem isn't FD as a starter, it's starters in general. Either a stage is fit for competetive play or it isn't. Why should certain stages be classified as "fairer" when they polariza matches, even slightly? Take a look at DMGs list of chars that get advantages on fd... then compare it to the top tier. It is entirely likely that these charcters sre buffed by the stagelist arbitrarily. Besidex, yousay that fd polarizes less than say RC, but it polarizes more from what? What defines the neutral matchup by which we can judge polarization? We've developed this false notion that FD BF SV are the "normal" stagesand that everything else is janky. Brawl is a gameofstages,and after we ban the stages we need to ban, everything left should be on equal footing. Why should Diddy or Olimar get his best cps game1, while Kirby and G&W have to play on some of their worst ones?

I'm typing this from a tAblet btw, and touch keyboards don't get along with me too well...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Edit: Grim Tuesday, do not post in this thread.

I think I love you.

• MK does only worse against Falco and Diddy on FD than on any other stage. There is no evidence that proves that MK does worse vs ICs on FD than on BF. Plenty of evidence exists that MK doesn't do worse vs any other top- or high-tier character on FD.

• 
  
  You're ****ing kidding me, right?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Statistically this is all true? Show me the carfax statistics.

It's a lot of work though. You'd have to give me some time to compile everything.

I'd like to say that Diddy clearly does better vs Wario on FD than on other stages because platforms and other **** tends to either:

1. Put Diddy in worse spots than Wario for trying to land

2. Make it easier for Wario to run around safely

Cool story, bro.

You're ****ing kidding me, right?

Like I said, I'm going by statistics and as far as I'm aware the difference is not significant. MK players lose to IC on BF a lot, it's just that they can always take ICs to SV ... which is the best stage for MK among those 3.
Admittedly ... it's hard to really see it considering how often FD is banned in the first place. Usually the win ICs get on BF doesn't affect the set because MK can win on SV, lose the 2nd match and then force the IC player to switch / play on RC / Brinstar.

 

[Life]

Gheb, you keep citing "statistics".

What statistics?

 

[Player-1]

It's a lot of work though. You'd have to give me some time to compile everything.

go ahead and take your time, but I can't acknowledge this thread as relevant until it's there.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh hey look, European theorycrafting.

This should be FUN.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Looks like I'm the Europeans' version of Jebus, judging from Gheb and BPC's reactions lol

Think you guys are just sick of being told you are wrong by the most correct person on this section of the site

 

[~ Gheb ~]

SD and Grim gtfo.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This makes the assumption that players are making stage decisions solely on character matchups and not things such as their level of comfort and experience on the stage as well as their own perceptions of the matchup and their playstyle.

It's certainly polar, if only because a lot of people have some extremely incorrect views about what platforms do and do not do to partiucalr characters.

"Nothing ever means anything."

 

[Raziek]

SD and Grim gtfo.

You can't just tell them to leave just because they disagree with you. I don't see any rules being broken here.

And it's been said, but data or GTFO.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The fact that people still have this idea of "Neutrals" and "Starters" after 6 years is kind of sad. The reason they existed in the first place was because Random Select from the set of starters was used for the first match in the early days of Melee, which has since been replaced with stage striking... from a set of "Starter" stages still.

Strike from a full legal list or don't have striking at all.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

inb4 Gheb tells Raziek and Kink to leave as well because he hates being told he is wrong

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

DDD has much better stages than this to CP Lucario to.

Heck, ICs aren't even that bad here.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think FD is fine as a starter because the striking system.

I personally would stick it as a CP, but only because I don't like automatically having to strike it vs Diddy/Snake/Falco/IC's.

So personal bias. =P

 

[Kink-Link5]

Aero, you can just ban it vs those characters so striking isn't a concern.